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Zelph

The best 2X NCAA champ?

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super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

Superold lives in some other dimension where words like "dominance" have some other meaning.

 

No I don't. I stated already that dominance starts with W/L record. I do think the bonus % is overrated. What did Taylor's bonus points do for him against Dake? How many guys pinned far more than Mcilravy yet remained levels below him?

 

Many old timers would say a guy like Uetake was easily the most dominant of his era. Many would say most dominant ever, and his pin% was very low. Nothing in comparison to guys like Askren, Ruth, or Taylor.

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super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

Yes Husky, he redshirted. But it's not as if the redshirt was the only thing holding him back from being the starter. There were two other 157 pounders in the room that could, and did, beat him. He couldn't beat the two guys ahead of him, so he was definitely 3rd string in that sense. And I believe that's very meaningful.

 

Husky, I did say that dominance is about Win/Loss record. I believe that's where it starts, see my previous posts.

 

The redshirt made it so he wasn’t being held back. Taking a redshirt means you are specifically not in the running for any weight class. His matches with the other guys were all based on the premise that the matches were NOT for the spot and not meaningful. I think we forget about all Jenkin’s bad losses and habit of gassing because he wrestled lights out at NCAA’s against a freshman DT/Cael.

 

And Dake? The 4x 4 weight NCAA champ who just beat a multi time World champ with a busted hand. What does it matter if he doesn’t win every SINGLE match like Cael Sanderson? His bonus point % means that he can throw around and physically dominate that many tough & extremely skilled Division 1 wrestlers. All wins and losses being equal I can guarantee you coaches believe that bonus % is of extreme import.

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super old what are you talking about?

 

He REDSHIRTED that year.

 

Which you already know so what is your angle in pretending he was “third string”. You aren’t in the line up as a redshirt.

 

And if dominance isn’t about majors, techs, pins and win/loss record then the word has lost any meaning.

 

Superold lives in some other dimension where words like "dominance" have some other meaning.

 

No I don't. I stated already that dominance starts with W/L record. I do think the bonus % is overrated. What did Taylor's bonus points do for him against Dake? How many guys pinned far more than Mcilravy yet remained levels below him?

 

Many old timers would say a guy like Uetake was easily the most dominant of his era. Many would say most dominant ever, and his pin% was very low. Nothing in comparison to guys like Askren, Ruth, or Taylor.

 

 

Well without Taylor's bonus points Penn State does not win the 2013 NCAA Team Title

 

So... yeah, I would say bonus points do mean something rather important

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King of Bing you are right I flew Tommy many times after he retired from coaching. He said was turning George Layman from OSU in the finals. Layman screamed and Tommy got up off him. Layman jumped up and grabbed both of Tommy's ankles for the winning takedown. Layman stayed on the ankles, as there was no stalling points in those days. That was Tommy' only loss.

 

Some other great OU 2-time champs were

Dick Delagado

Stan Abel

Dale Lewis

Mickey Martin

Greg Ruth

David McGuire

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Well Dave Schultz won one title and Mark Schultz won three so both don't belong in this category.

 

Rod Kilgore wrestled Wade twice. His teammate Gary Breece 1974 118 pound NCAA champ (who belongs in the conversation for best 1x champ) said he felt he was capable of beating everyone he wrestled. Rod said he didn't think he could beat Wade. Rod went 3,1,4,1. Schalles was allowed to wrestle the 1973-1974 dual meet scdeule and conference championship for Clarion, but not the NCAA championships, due to an NCAA ruling. Rod Kilgore won the 158 pound championship in 1974. So in Rod's opinion Wade would have won a third title in 1974.

Wade went up to 177 in the conference tournament to wrestle Floyd Hitchcock, whom he pinned. Hitchcock won the 1974 NCAA championship at 177 pounds and was voted the OW.

 

For me the ones to be most seriously considered are Bill Smith, Tommy Evans, Wade Schalles, and Randy Lewis.

Smith and Schalles were denied a chance to win a 3rd title because of NCAA rulings on their eligibility. Evans was winning and going for the pn when George Layman screamed. Tommy being a nice guy got up, and Layman jumped and took him down. Tommy said that was the last time he let go of anybody until the referee said stop. It was his only loss in college. Randy Lewis dislocated an elbow in one of the ugliest injuries you'll ever see while wrestling Jim Gibbons. Had he not been injured he probably would have won a 3rd title.

Smith gold medal winner in 1952 pins Danny Hodge in the 1956 trials. One of the 3 legimate losses in Hodge's post high school career. Evans silver medal, royally screwed out of the gold. Lewis 1984 gold, and should have had a world championship match ( his win was overturned in the back room afterwards).

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I know its not relevant to this specific topic, but I've talked to many who got to watch him wrestle, and most of those who did will say Yoshiro Fujita was the best, most dominant folkstyle wrestler they ever had the pleasure of watching wrestle. Certainly the quickest wrestler they ever got to see. FWIW

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He was exceotional, but Howard Fox from Cincinatti was quicker the first round of the 1972 tournament. Fox had a sizeable lead (4-5 points) when Fujita broke his collarbone. I saw him several times and he was impressive.

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Andre Metzger- not just a two timer but a World bronze medalist the summer after his freshman year.

 

Randy Lewis, I believe, had 74 in a row at the time of the injury. Hard to penalize a guy for that.

 

Mike Sheets---what a warrior. So tough on the mat.

 

Dan Cuestas....dominant on his feet.

 

Gene Mills....are you kidding me? Could turn anyone.

 

 

 

 

So many excellent wrestlers. Rating them is a joke in its own right....because if everyone was the same size...styles would clash. A round robin of this bunch would produce upsets you wouldn't dream of.

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A number of Hawkeyes to choose from: Chuck Yagla, Chris Campbell, Randy Lewis, Lou Banach, Royce Alger, Terry Brands, Jeff McGinness, Mark Ironside, Eric Juergens, T.J. Williams, Mark Perry, Brent Metcalf, and who have I forgotten? Oh yeah, Joe Scarpello.

 

If we're talking the best two timer, I disagree that there are a number of Hawkeyes to choose from. Actually, off the top of my head, there are no Hawkeyes to choose from. That is, unless, we are considering Gable to be a Hawkeye.

 

First, I apologize for leaving off Marty Kistler and Matt McDonough.

Next, I should point out that Campbell, Lewis, Kistler, Terry Brands, Perry, Metcalf, McDonough and Scarpello were all three-time finalists. None of these worth considering?

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A number of Hawkeyes to choose from: Chuck Yagla, Chris Campbell, Randy Lewis, Lou Banach, Royce Alger, Terry Brands, Jeff McGinness, Mark Ironside, Eric Juergens, T.J. Williams, Mark Perry, Brent Metcalf, and who have I forgotten? Oh yeah, Joe Scarpello.

 

If we're talking the best two timer, I disagree that there are a number of Hawkeyes to choose from. Actually, off the top of my head, there are no Hawkeyes to choose from. That is, unless, we are considering Gable to be a Hawkeye.

 

First, I apologize for leaving off Marty Kistler and Matt McDonough.

Next, I should point out that Campbell, Lewis, Kistler, Terry Brands, Perry, Metcalf, McDonough and Scarpello were all three-time finalists. None of these worth considering?

 

Interesting note on Chris Campbell was that he did not wrestle his junior year at Westfield NJ high

 

Was he a walk-on at Iowa?

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He was exceotional, but Howard Fox from Cincinatti was quicker the first round of the 1972 tournament. Fox had a sizeable lead (4-5 points) when Fujita broke his collarbone. I saw him several times and he was impressive.

 

Come on Big, anyone who watched that match will tell you Fujita was hurt very early and Fox would have had no chance if Fujita had not injured himself. The injury default occurred 1:14 into the match. Fujita's closest match at the NCAA's the year before was 11-2. To say Fox was quicker, I must believe you are being facetious. Fox was pinned his next match to an unseeded wrestler and didn't even place.

 

My dad was at the orange-black ranking matches in the fall of '70 and watched Fujita beat Dwayne Keller 10-0 and then 13-1 in their two ranking matches, forcing Dwayne and his twin brother Darrell to both move up a weight where both went on to the finals at nationals, with Darrell beating Larry Owings the year after he beat Gable. Heck, Fujita beat Uetake in one of the Olympic ranking matches for Japan before '68 Olympics as a 17 year old. That's how he ended up in Stillwater. As I said, I've been told there was no one quicker. Then or now.

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I didn't see the Fox vs Fujita match. However, Stan Abel was coaching at Cinncinatti at the time where Fox wrestled, told me that for some reason Fox just had Fujita's number that match. Jus tseemed to have an answer for anything Fujita tried prior to the injury. Fox was pretty quick in his own right according to Stan. He said he wasn't sure if Fujita would have been able to comeback even without being injured.

 

A few months ago I told him if I needed win one match I'd want him coaching it, but if I had an entire team I'd want Gable coaching it. He said I'm in agreement. Abel's wrestlers record against Gable's wrestlers in the finals was 7-1.

 

A buddy of mine who was 4th in the world made the following comment "When they tell me a guy has never lost, I want to know who's he been wrestling? Everyone has a bad day".

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I'm not trying to knock on McDonough, but I don't believe he belongs anywhere in a conversation with names like Metcalf, Burroughs, Askren and Taylor. Even if he had avoided injury his senior year and won 3x I would have him considerably lower on any p4p list than any of the four mentioned above.

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I didn't see the Fox vs Fujita match. However, Stan Abel was coaching at Cinncinatti at the time where Fox wrestled, told me that for some reason Fox just had Fujita's number that match. Jus tseemed to have an answer for anything Fujita tried prior to the injury. Fox was pretty quick in his own right according to Stan. He said he wasn't sure if Fujita would have been able to comeback even without being injured.

 

A few months ago I told him if I needed win one match I'd want him coaching it, but if I had an entire team I'd want Gable coaching it. He said I'm in agreement. Abel's wrestlers record against Gable's wrestlers in the finals was 7-1.

 

A buddy of mine who was 4th in the world made the following comment "When they tell me a guy has never lost, I want to know who's he been wrestling? Everyone has a bad day".

 

Those that I've talked to that saw the match have told me they weren't far enough into the match to tell anything when Fujita got hurt. I just find it hard to believe Howard Fox, who never even AA'd and I believe that was his only win in a NCCA championship match, would have won that match had Fujita been healthy. As I said, he was pinned the very next match by an unseeded wrestler who also didn't even place. And this was the only collegiate match Fujita ever lost, and I don't believe anyone was ever even close to him. I seem to recall being told his closest match was a 6-3 win over Pat Milkovich, a two time ncaa champion who won after Fujita was injured. In Pat's own words to me in a conversation as we were comparing Fujita to Alan Fried, he told me "Fuji was incredibly fast, had great balance, and extremely slick. He's probably one of the greatest technical wrestlers I have ever been on the mat with. Not to take anything away from Fried but Yoshiro was just so dominant and he made just about everyone he wrestled look like a beginner. Fried was good, but Fuji was something to watch." I have to believe if Abel was serious in his comments, he was being just a bit biased to say the least.

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I was thinking about Taylor's quest for a second title next week, and was wondering whether people would think Taylor or TJ Williams was a better 2x champ.

 

Went back and dug up this thread & was surprised to find that NO ONE (not even the Iowa fans) mentioned Williams as the best 2x champ when this thread ran about a month ago. I mean, the dude went 98-1 in a three-season career - good enough for the best all-time winning percentage for the Hawkeyes. He placed 3rd as a Junior, losing to Larry Quisel 3-1 in OT.

 

http://hawkcentral.com/2012/05/19/catch ... -williams/

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