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Pinnum

California Questions

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I am pretty ignorant of California so maybe some of you people out west might have some insight for me.

 

I think most people would agree that California, at the state level, is a state with some real solid wrestlers, and due to the single division state championship there are likely a lot of solid high school kids that get over looked and not recruited.

 

Also, there are very few four year schools for kids to go to in order to continue to wrestle.

 

So, my questions...

 

Is California hurt by kids not finding their way into college rooms? Are there a lot of kids that could be successful in college that aren't getting picked up by college programs?

Is there less recruiting of California kids since there is so much demand for kids wanting to walk-on that college coaches don't have to recruit the walk-on talent like they have to compete in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and New Jersey?

Why aren't the CACC schools used as a 'minor league' system to develop the in-state talent for the four year schools? Do kids want to go to four year schools over developing in a CACC or are the CACCs not funded enough to make them a viable option? Do they offer scholarships?

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Many issues at play here. The biggest reason you don't see more CA kids wrestling at the D1 level in college is simply the fact that there are not many D1 options in the state. Unless I'm drawing a blank here, I believe the only D1 teams left in CA are Stanford, Cal Poly, and Cal Bakersfield. None of those would qualify as a state flagship institution, which is what you need to draw a lot of local kids. Stanford is just as hard to get into as Harvard, so it's not a viable option for your average CA student athlete. Cal Poly and Bakerfield don't have much name recognition outside of CA. What you would need to see CA wrestling explode would be if big name state schools like UC Berkeley or UCLA fielded teams and put a head coach in place with a lot of name recognition.

 

Of course many CA kids do wrestle out of state in college. But many kids don't want to move thousands of miles away from home to go to college (and for many families it's not a viable financial option to do that). Having more in state schools offering scholarships would be key, but unfortunately, CA wrestling has moved in the opposite direction in the last 20 years.

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Are you saying that top flight talent is not wrestling in college because Cal Poly and Cal St Bakersfield are not big enough names for them and they would rather not wrestle than wrestle for a school that is not well known nationally?

 

I can understand those schools not being able to land a guy like Jake Varner who had offers all over the country but I am talking about the guys not getting offers from all over the country.

 

Is California so large that it makes recruiting hard even for in-state kids?

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Are you saying that top flight talent is not wrestling in college because Cal Poly and Cal St Bakersfield are not big enough names for them and they would rather not wrestle than wrestle for a school that is not well known nationally?

No, not quite. The kids that are elite are going out of state. The kids that get hurt most by this are kids that are good, but not in the national spotlight because perhaps they aren't elite, and so they are not recruited, or at least would not get a scholarship at a big out of state program. The reasons that these kids fly under the radar are many, but contributing factors are that because of CA's size and the one division high school state championship, many kids that finish somewhere in the 3rd-8th range at the state tournament will have a difficult time getting recognized if they cannot afford to go to national level events. Some of these kids go to Fargo, or Flo Nationals, or Iron Man, etc, but many quality wrestlers just aren't in a position to go to those tournaments. Of course not all of these kids would pan out in college (most kids don't pan out in college), but these kids would probably be given a chance at a CA state school if we had a lot of options. Then there are the kids that placed at CA states, but were fairly low placers so were not highly recruited, and these kids may get into schools like UC Berkeley, which is an excellent public school that of course does not have wrestling, but don't get into Stanford and other schools of that caliber. So then these kids have to decide whether they go to a school like Berkeley and don't wrestle, or do they go to Bakersfield or Poly and wrestle. Many kids like this will choose to go to Berkeley and not wrestle because of the academic opportunity.

 

Then there are kids that are considered top flight in CA high school and do go to Poly or Bakersfield, but never reach their full potential at these schools because the programs are underfunded and don't have the same coaching or environment in the room compared to the top programs. This causes many other elite CA kids to bypass CA entirely, for example Delgado going to IL, McIntosh going to PSU, and Martinez going to IL, etc.

 

So basically in CA you have the following problems (many of which are interrelated):

1. Few in state wrestling options at D1 level

2. Geography and single division high school wrestling limit recruiting potential

3. Elite kids go out of state to wrestle at top programs since they feel they can't find one here

4. Good but not elite kids are forced to choose between Poly and Bakersfield if they want to wrestle, or they can go to a school like Berkeley or UCLA but can't wrestle

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I think Cal Baptist is Div. I.

Cal Baptist is DII. Cal Baptist definitely adds opportunities for kids who want to wrestle in CA, but it is only attractive to kids that want to wrestle DII at a private school that I believe doesn't offer wrestling scholarships, but I'm not sure about that. Their website lists the sports that offer scholarships, and wrestling isn't one of them, but I'm not sure how up to date that information is.

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dsnc471 good write up and I would add that the financial state of the university system in California and the effects of title IX make it unlikely that the situation will improve any time soon. If I had gigga bucks I would fund a private institution like USC.

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I changed the title of the thread, as it's a whole West Coast Issue. Not just Ca.

 

No question that there are D1 studs all up and down the West Coast. HOWEVER, Few teams if any from the Mid-West or East Coast will reach out that far to recruit. YES, there are Wa., Ore., and Ca. kids out there on the mat, yet it's a financial and logistical issue.

 

Remember the thread where Cael got crucified by not offering (or pulling a commit) to a Mid-West kid, and took the Ca. kid instead? (Hvy weight I think) ... That was one of the few Big Name West coast "picks" that I can recall lately. Most of our kids end up on the west coast, yet if you look closely, the Pac 12 is not Hotbed of studs. ( well ... the Roger brothers may help out OK State) ;)

 

Even when the UW was in play, and placing very high at the NCAA's (1970's) they always had a hybrid of guys. Some Local, some from Japan, some from the rest of the Left Coast, and even some from the Mid-West.

 

And what really pisses me off, is that the PAC 12 got their TV money this year, and put it all back into Football and most recently Sand Volleyball for the UW women. I don't see any effect of that money within the existing Wrestling teams still alive in the PAC 12.

 

I am confident that given the chance, the Left Coast has enuf studs to fill in a few more rosters if we had the teams.

 

Another side effect: The Pac12 is not even close to the Midwest conferences when it comes to the Week-in, and the Week-out "Tough, Tough, Though wrestling duals, and by the time the NCAA's roll around, they take a beating. The B10 and others are just so tough, it's a shock to the Pac12 guys.

 

I swear ... We are so PC out here now-a-days, you can get called for Unnecessary Roughness, hugging a Tree.

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Wire,

 

If few Midwest and East teams reach out to West Coast recruits, shouldn't the West Coast be able to land all of that talent? Even if some of the top talent is poached by Big Ten/12 programs, isn't there enough almost blue chip talent to fill the West Coast rosters?

 

What I mean is that the West coast is so under represented in wrestling opportunities that I would think, even if the west coast is not as strong, there would be enough tough kids to fill lineups with talent. If we look at PA we all would agree that they are a solid state. But how much more talent does PA have than California (or as you put it, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington combined)? PA also has programs stealing their better wrestlers (Oklahoma State, Maryland, North Carolina, etc) but yet they still are able to produce programs like Penn State, Lehigh, Pitt, Edinboro, and Bloomsburg that all rely heavily on local talent. In the case of programs like Pitt, Edinboro, Bloomsburg, Clarion, Drexel, Bucknell and other they are able to build their programs, in large part, by recruiting tough kids that are not being made offers by the big national programs.

 

With so many high school wrestlers and a good share of national success coupled with few programs competing for the talent, I can't help but think the west coast should have some stronger programs.

 

Maybe it is a cultural issue, or the distance between the programs makes it hard for redshirts to develop without getting the competition opportunities of the Midwest and East coast? Or maybe the redshirts get board and frustrated without being able to compete and find success in their season not in duals?

 

Just trying to understand it... I really think we need a rise in the West Coast and a dominate program out there.

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One factor to consider for Cal Poly is the academic requirements, incoming freshmen have the highest SAT & GPA averages for the California State University system. Average GPA for incoming freshmen was 396. Compared to the UC campuses, their average SATs & GPAs are slightly lower than Berkeley, UCLA, UC San Diego and equal or higher than the other UC campuses.

Also Poly has an acceptance rate of in the low 30s, 32% in 2012 & 34% in 2013, only 2 CA public universities are lower: Berkeley - 22%, UCLA 27%. UC San Diego is slightly higher, 35% in 2012, 36% 2013.

 

 

Looking at the 2012 & 2013 high school state championship results, 2012 had 19 seniors in the finals, I didn't see one of those guys listed on Bakersfield's roster. 2013 had 12 seniors in the finals, I didn't see any of them listed either. 31 state finalists and not one went on to Bakersfield. (maybe I missed one but that still would be dismally low percentage). Cal Poly's roster had 2, both were state champs one being a two timer.

About 10 of those 31 could be considered central valley kids and for whatever reason none went onto Bakersfield.

 

Frankly, some people just don't want to live in Bakersfield. But even if the school can't recruit kids from the Bay Area to Sacramento or LA - San Diego areas, the central valley especially Fresno & Bakersfield have most of the top high school teams. And most of the Roadrunners' roster comes from those metro areas: their roster shows one wrestler from north of Fresno, a kid from Concord and only a few from the LA metro sprawl & San Diego metro area.

 

 

I lived in San Luis Obispo for about 9 years and thought it was great but I know several people that don't like the small town - a lot of people from the Bay area, Sacramento, San Diego or LA saying "What the heck do you do there?" "It is a cow town", etc. That is also a factor to a lot of people.

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Also California community colleges don't offer athletic scholarships. Tuition is based on units taken, averages about $45-50 unit. There are usually other fees charged per semester, here in San Diego those fees are usually less than $50/semester -- examples are Health & Accident Insurance fee and Student Center fee. Then of course books.

 

Aging myself but I remember when the unit fee was $12 and their was a cap of paying for 12 units regardless of how many you enrolled in.

 

And the community college teams are a real mixed bag of talent- you'll see former high school state champs and guys that barely made it out of their league.

Most community college sports are severely underfunded, a lot of sports teams have been cut in the past 15 years. Yet about 70 still field football teams.

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...Remember the thread where Cael got crucified by not offering (or pulling a commit) to a Mid-West kid, and took the Ca. kid instead? (Hvy weight I think) ...

He didn't pull the commit from a midwest kid... it was a PA kid, Thomas Haines, who will in all likelihood win his fourth class AAA state title this year at 285. The first 4x PA champ that I can think of north of 170 lbs.

 

Kind of rare for the flagship Div I school in the best state for HS wrestling to turn its back on a 4x AAA champ.

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Pinnum, one factor you are ignoring is the coaching. Other than Jim Zalesky at Oregon State, which West Coast D1 coach can be objectively considered a great coach? How many such coaches has the West Coast had in the past several decades?

 

It's not just that the West Coast D1 programs are at a disadvantage for all the reasons you and others have mentioned on this thread. It's also that they don't have top-tier coaching, largely because they do not pay for it. That, in turn, affects recruiting and talent development, which exacerbate all the issues you and others have raised.

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Pinnum, one factor you are ignoring is the coaching. Other than Jim Zalesky at Oregon State, which West Coast D1 coach can be objectively considered a great coach? How many such coaches has the West Coast had in the past several decades?

 

It's not just that the West Coast D1 programs are at a disadvantage for all the reasons you and others have mentioned on this thread. It's also that they don't have top-tier coaching, largely because they do not pay for it. That, in turn, affects recruiting and talent development, which exacerbate all the issues you and others have raised.

I also believe the three Division I programs in California are all not fully-funded.

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Wire,

 

If few Midwest and East teams reach out to West Coast recruits, shouldn't the West Coast be able to land all of that talent? Even if some of the top talent is poached by Big Ten/12 programs, isn't there enough almost blue chip talent to fill the West Coast rosters?

 

What I mean is that the West coast is so under represented in wrestling opportunities that I would think, even if the west coast is not as strong, there would be enough tough kids to fill lineups with talent. If we look at PA we all would agree that they are a solid state. But how much more talent does PA have than California (or as you put it, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington combined)? PA also has programs stealing their better wrestlers (Oklahoma State, Maryland, North Carolina, etc) but yet they still are able to produce programs like Penn State, Lehigh, Pitt, Edinboro, and Bloomsburg that all rely heavily on local talent. In the case of programs like Pitt, Edinboro, Bloomsburg, Clarion, Drexel, Bucknell and other they are able to build their programs, in large part, by recruiting tough kids that are not being made offers by the big national programs.

 

With so many high school wrestlers and a good share of national success coupled with few programs competing for the talent, I can't help but think the west coast should have some stronger programs.

 

Maybe it is a cultural issue, or the distance between the programs makes it hard for redshirts to develop without getting the competition opportunities of the Midwest and East coast? Or maybe the redshirts get board and frustrated without being able to compete and find success in their season not in duals?

 

Just trying to understand it... I really think we need a rise in the West Coast and a dominate program out there.

 

Also, look at the schools who actually offer D1 wrestling. Arizona, Oregon State, Boise etc ... Have made the effort. We need to get U of Oregon, and U of Washington into the mix. If you look into the smaller Ca. schools that do have wrestling .... Is that where you really want to go to get a good education? (Not knocking the schools) just sayin' ... Oregon and UW, and maybe WSU (should) have the resources to get the sport back. Yet ... We have submitted proposals to both UW, and WSU, to no avail. (1.5 Million a couple years ago)

 

Also, Oregon, UW, and WSU have over gone massive reconstruction efforts to their facilities, with new bigger Stadiums, etc ... And during this whole upgrade cycle, all and any wrestling facilities are gone. So now they have a problem of even reinstating wrestling, but where will they practice, workout, train?

 

It's a Multi Million obstacle (In their opinions)

 

believe me ... Oregon and UW need to get back into the mix. I'm a WSU Grad ... :o

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Wire,

 

If few Midwest and East teams reach out to West Coast recruits, shouldn't the West Coast be able to land all of that talent? Even if some of the top talent is poached by Big Ten/12 programs, isn't there enough almost blue chip talent to fill the West Coast rosters?

 

What I mean is that the West coast is so under represented in wrestling opportunities that I would think, even if the west coast is not as strong, there would be enough tough kids to fill lineups with talent. If we look at PA we all would agree that they are a solid state. But how much more talent does PA have than California (or as you put it, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington combined)? PA also has programs stealing their better wrestlers (Oklahoma State, Maryland, North Carolina, etc) but yet they still are able to produce programs like Penn State, Lehigh, Pitt, Edinboro, and Bloomsburg that all rely heavily on local talent. In the case of programs like Pitt, Edinboro, Bloomsburg, Clarion, Drexel, Bucknell and other they are able to build their programs, in large part, by recruiting tough kids that are not being made offers by the big national programs.

 

With so many high school wrestlers and a good share of national success coupled with few programs competing for the talent, I can't help but think the west coast should have some stronger programs.

 

Maybe it is a cultural issue, or the distance between the programs makes it hard for redshirts to develop without getting the competition opportunities of the Midwest and East coast? Or maybe the redshirts get board and frustrated without being able to compete and find success in their season not in duals?

 

Just trying to understand it... I really think we need a rise in the West Coast and a dominate program out there.

 

Also, look at the schools who actually offer D1 wrestling. Arizona, Oregon State, Boise etc ... Have made the effort. We need to get U of Oregon, and U of Washington into the mix. If you look into the smaller Ca. schools that do have wrestling .... Is that where you really want to go to get a good education? (Not knocking the schools) just sayin' ... Oregon and UW, and maybe WSU (should) have the resources to get the sport back. Yet ... We have submitted proposals to both UW, and WSU, to no avail. (1.5 Million a couple years ago)

 

Also, Oregon, UW, and WSU have over gone massive reconstruction efforts to their facilities, with new bigger Stadiums, etc ... And during this whole upgrade cycle, all and any wrestling facilities are gone. So now they have a problem of even reinstating wrestling, but where will they practice, workout, train?

 

It's a Multi Million obstacle (In their opinions)

 

believe me ... Oregon and UW need to get back into the mix. I'm a WSU Grad ... :o

 

 

Cal Poly has a pretty good academic reputation, true it doesn't have the nationwide name recognition with the general public as some larger universities do but it does have high academic rankings which definitely carries over in recruitment of their graduates.

 

In regards to scholarships & funding, most of the CSU's athletic departments do not have a lot of funding.

Budgets:

San Diego St - $36 million (highest for a CSU)

Fresno St -- $26 million

Cal Poly -- $ 20 million

Bakersfield --$10.6 million

 

Compare that to UCLA and Berkeley, each in the $63-66 million range. Poly actually has the 6th highest athletic budget for CA public Us, UC Davis is 5th at about $25 million. Bakersfield's budget is on par with several other CA Us, which is not saying much.

 

 

Not sure if either has the full 9.9 scholarships but given how Bakersfield administration tries to drop the sport every 3 years or so, I'd be surprised if they fund 9.9. That is another problem for Bakersfield, how many kids want to join a team that is constantly under attack by the university's administration? On the other hand, Cal Poly has the support of their administration.

 

edit: From what I've heard Poly had 6.6 scholarships as of the 2012-13 season. But I don't know if that is based off a specific dollar amount and based on in-state kids only or not.

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Pinnum, one factor you are ignoring is the coaching. Other than Jim Zalesky at Oregon State, which West Coast D1 coach can be objectively considered a great coach? How many such coaches has the West Coast had in the past several decades?

 

It's not just that the West Coast D1 programs are at a disadvantage for all the reasons you and others have mentioned on this thread. It's also that they don't have top-tier coaching, largely because they do not pay for it. That, in turn, affects recruiting and talent development, which exacerbate all the issues you and others have raised.

 

How would you define a top-tier coach? In your opinion, what makes a guy a top-tier coach and what are the current coaches in those programs missing that keeps them from being top-tier coaches?

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dsnc471 good write up and I would add that the financial state of the university system in California and the effects of title IX make it unlikely that the situation will improve any time soon. If I had gigga bucks I would fund a private institution like USC.

The problem would be if you offered to fully fund the wrestling program the school would require you to match 2 female dollars per every male dollar and would tell no thank you if you were not willing to pony up to their title ix demands.

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Pinnum, one factor you are ignoring is the coaching. Other than Jim Zalesky at Oregon State, which West Coast D1 coach can be objectively considered a great coach? How many such coaches has the West Coast had in the past several decades?

 

It's not just that the West Coast D1 programs are at a disadvantage for all the reasons you and others have mentioned on this thread. It's also that they don't have top-tier coaching, largely because they do not pay for it. That, in turn, affects recruiting and talent development, which exacerbate all the issues you and others have raised.

 

How would you define a top-tier coach? In your opinion, what makes a guy a top-tier coach and what are the current coaches in those programs missing that keeps them from being top-tier coaches?

Many definitions of good coaching, but in this case, you'd have to define what's missing on the West Coast as recruiting. Not saying these guys are not good coaches, but they lack recruiting power (it's not all their fault, however, see below). Once you have built a program into a powerhouse, recruiting will be driven by the recent success of the team, but when you are first trying to build a program, recruiting will be driven by the name of the coach. Look at what Cael did at PSU. Of course now guys want to go there because of the success they are having and the workout partners in the room, but initially guys went there only because of Cael's name. Now if the big name coach can't actually coach, then the train derails, but obviously at PSU it didn't.

 

The trouble with the West coast, however, is that recruiting will always suffer because of geography. In order to build a strong program, you have to be able to recruit out of state even if most of your kids are from in state. This keeps competition high in the room and makes you look nationally attractive. If you look at the CA schools that offer DI wrestling, Stanford will never have a problem with recruiting because they are recruiting in a niche market where the school sells itself to those type of student/athletes. Cal Poly is a great academic school, but will never be as attractive out of state as a school like UCLA or Berkeley, simply because of name recognition. But even if those schools started wrestling and hired a high profile coach, elite kids (even those in CA) would be reluctant to wrestle there because of the lack of top competition in the Pac-12 compared to the midwest and east coast conferences. It's hard to develop a powerhouse team in a bubble, which is what the west coast is. You have to travel long distances to find competition. So unfortunately, to resurrect West coast wrestling you really need multiple state schools to seriously commit to wrestling, which won't happen. But imagine what a different scene it would be if Washington, Oregon, Berkeley, Davis, and UCLA all committed to strong wrestling programs that were fully funded and hired high profile coaches. Pac-12 wrestling would transform within a few years and would be right in the mix with any conference nationally.

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I lived in the Phoenix area for 30 years and was actively involved with the ASU wrestling program when Bobby Douglas and Lee Roy Smith were the head coaches. My involvement stopped when Thom Ortiz was hired (i'd lobbied the AD and Art Martori not to hire him).

 

ASU was built into a powerhouse program thru kids from Oklahoma(Stan Abel who recommended Bobby Douglas for the ASU job, would send him a list of tough kids in Oklahoma he wasn't going to offer a scholarship), junior college wrestlers from Arizona and California, and the Ohio/Michigan area where Douglas had recruiting ties.

 

The Arizona junior college wrestling programs are all gone and about 2/3rd of the California juco programs.

With the right coach ASU would recruit heavily in CA and develop them. CSU Bakersfield is the only D1 program in CA that has inferior academics to ASU.

 

After much prodding Mark Cody and his staff are actively recruiting in California. I pushed very hard for OU to sign Danny Chaid Jr. Last year Jared Frayer attended the California State High School Chsmpionships. OU signed two CA wrestlers who were state placers. This summer Mark Cody will have a wrestling camp at UNLV, which should attract a fair number of California high school wrestlers. OU needs to reestablish the pipeline to CA that Stan Abel built with the Schultz brothers and Dan Chaid Sr.

 

Illinois got Adam Tirapelle to from Clovis CA, that opened that pipeline. Mark Perry Jr., coached at Cal-Poly for one year, he brought Jesse Delgado with him. So expect Illinois and OU to recruit heavily in the state. Cael will come in and "cherry pick" the best kid in the country at the weight class he needs.

 

It is unfortunate that so many D1 and Juco programs in CA were dropped. With 832 high schools it is a goldmine that isn't being mined very heavily.

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Pinnum, one factor you are ignoring is the coaching. Other than Jim Zalesky at Oregon State, which West Coast D1 coach can be objectively considered a great coach? How many such coaches has the West Coast had in the past several decades?

 

It's not just that the West Coast D1 programs are at a disadvantage for all the reasons you and others have mentioned on this thread. It's also that they don't have top-tier coaching, largely because they do not pay for it. That, in turn, affects recruiting and talent development, which exacerbate all the issues you and others have raised.

 

How would you define a top-tier coach? In your opinion, what makes a guy a top-tier coach and what are the current coaches in those programs missing that keeps them from being top-tier coaches?

 

Objectively, I would define a great coach as someone who does most of the following:

- Recruits top HS wrestlers (not necessarily blue chippers) with potential to AA in college

- Consistently outperforms expectations (whether based on preseason rankings or the administration's and fans' expectations, or all of the above)

- Has a history of developing AAs

- Consistently improves his wrestlers throughout their college career (on average)

- Raises the status of wrestling within the college's administration

- Markets the program successfully to generate fan interest

 

There is clearly more than the above that goes into being a great coach, e.g. being a great life teacher and mentor, fostering a good academic environment, etc. But objectively, that list covers most bases. If you can recruit them, develop them, and consistently outperform expectations while keeping the program in good standing and putting butts in seats, you are a great coach.

 

I understand and agree with the various points others have made about the challenges West Coast D1 programs have. Without good funding and support, there's only so much the current coaches can do. But I still believe the right coach could get more out of most West Coast programs. Admittedly, that is somewhat circular logic because such coaches have better opportunities elsewhere. So the trick is to land a great coach when he is out of favor at another program (e.g. Zalesky) or bet on an unproven coach with high potential who might be "gettable" without a perfect package to offer.

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