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Retherford

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I understand he is not attempting to slight Retherford's technique, but, once again, I don't believe strength is the explanation. It is simple for someone to explain an easy takedown as simply out horsing an opponent, but these explanations are reserved for those who miss the intricacies that go into a perfect shot or any other technique. Also, it should be noted that I never stated that he didn't possess adequate physical strength, but to attribute a large portion of his success to brute strength is a shockingly uninformed statement. I can assure you that if it was as simple as having brute strength, many more people would be highly successful wrestlers. I believe mental strength, determination, etc. are much rarer commodities, and better explanations for Retherford's astonishing success. I could also easily switch some words around in your closing statement and create a statement that is equally if not more accurate. Without determination, strength don't mean s@#$,

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I agree Gator, he does appear strong but his number one asset in finishing is the technique. If you look at the videos of him on flo or youtube from high school, he constantly looks smaller then his opponent. Wrestling these larger guys has helped him with perfecting his finish since there is a smaller margin for error. He lifted himself into a college 141 this past summer and was walking around at about 150, so he is now wrestling at a weight class where he is not small, although certainly not large. The sky is the limit for this young man and we are fortunate to have him in Blue & White.

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Though I agree with most of what you have said,MSU158, I couldn't disagree more with you saying Retherford wins because of brute strength. My observation has been quite the opposite. I would argue his winning can be attributed much more to technique, unshakable determination, and a brilliant wrestling strategy. He understands what he is good at, and is unwavering in his approach. He understands how to put himself in the best position to win, and does not allow the pressures of the match, or external pressures (keyboard warriors) to dictate the means he utilizes to achieve his desired ends. I have yet to to see him muscle anyone around in a tie. In fact, I consistently catch myself pondering on how easy it would be for him to make 133. FYI, I am under the impression that it would not be much of a struggle.

 

I think you are misinterpreting MSU (or maybe I am). I don't think he's saying that Retherford has poor technique. Retherford takes good shots in good position and finishes crisply. What I believe MSU is saying (and what I believe) is that you can't finish shots that easily on top flight competition or keep veteran wrestlers underneath using Retherford's simple tactics without ridiculous strength. Retherford is a little guy so he doesn't have much leverage, but he must have freakish strength.

 

You can have all the determination in the world, but if you don't have the strength it doesn't mean s***.

 

I am on Gator Geek and Flying Tiger's side. I think if Retherford did indeed have freakish strength then he would be able to turn these guys. The fact he does not turn them suggests to me anyway that he doesn't have freakish strength, yet. I don't think he lacks strength, so I'm not saying that either. He just isn't the pure hammer that Steiber is right now.

 

Conversely. I think a wrestler can do what Zain does on technique. At least on finishing shots. All of what I am saying is meant to compliment Zain. I think his technique is as good as it gets.

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I am not slighting Retherford's technique. He is very solid in every position. However, he isn't winning the big matches by lighting up the scoreboard. He looks like he wins nearly every hand fight. He cannot be held down and he flattens everyone down on the mat. I am sorry but my best attribute was leg riding. He is obviously way above where I ever was but strength was the major factor in why the ride was successful. You have to be able to power the arms back and drive the head down and simply force both legs in. It would be different if it was off hips and one leg technique like Taylor often uses. However, Retherford looks like he can force the position from anywhere. Brute strength doesn't mean you will turn the best. Turning someone there is really hard for superman it simply means the guy will go nowhere unless the ref restarts the position.

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I am really looking forward to Port vs Rutherford and/or Steiber. Interested in what the seeding guru's project at NCAA's. How will the NCAA brackets look if Port and Rutherford enter the tournament undefeated and how will the brackets look if Port enters undefeated and Steiber wind B1G ?

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If Zain ends up splitting with Stieber, his victory earlier this year will actually hurt him at NCAAs

 

Unless Bright can upset Port

If Zain splits with Stieber it doesn't hurt him at all. We have a 3 horse race here with Port, Stieber, and Retherford, so the big deal is getting the 1 seed so you don't have to face a hammer in the semis. Same is true with 125. If Zain and Steiber split, it simply cements them into the 2 and 3 in some order, but there's no practical difference between the 2 and the 3, so it doesn't matter.

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Port should get it if he’s undefeated.

 

The prior years result + undefeated record + wrestling anyone on his teams schedule = top seed at nationals.

 

I wish that were true...and I agree. However...look at last year's NCAA 141 seeding.

 

Maple: 4th place prior year + undefeated record + wrestled everyone on his schedule = second seed

Stieber: 6th place prior year + undefeated + wrestled everyone on his schedule = top seed.

 

It doesn't always happen like it should.

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If Zain ends up splitting with Stieber, his victory earlier this year will actually hurt him at NCAAs

 

Unless Bright can upset Port

If Zain splits with Stieber it doesn't hurt him at all. We have a 3 horse race here with Port, Stieber, and Retherford, so the big deal is getting the 1 seed so you don't have to face a hammer in the semis. Same is true with 125. If Zain and Steiber split, it simply cements them into the 2 and 3 in some order, but there's no practical difference between the 2 and the 3, so it doesn't matter.

 

If Zain beats Stieber again, he's in the best postion, obviously. I just don't see it happening.

 

If Zain loses to Stieber, he would have been better off losing the first time around. Logan would be the 1 seed and Zain would get Port on his side of the bracket with the no. 3 seed. He'll now likely get Logan, because Port will be number 1. Stieber > Port IMO

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The NCAA seeding criteria DOES NOT include ANY results from prior years. RPI and margin of victory are the two major components in deciding seeding between 2 undefeated wrestlers who obviously did not wrestle each other.

 

The above is why wrestling in the B1G can both REALLY help and REALLY hurt you. If you go undefeated wrestling for a B1G school you are almost guaranteed the 1 seed unless someone outside the conference met up with most of the same competition and won more convincingly. The flipside is that you are more likely to see a higher level of competition and may take an extra loss or 2. Depending on regular season tournaments and National duals the two best wrestlers in the B1G, which are usually in the top 5, often meet a minimum of 2x and could meet as many as 4 times. If they split they both end up with 2 losses. The out of conference wrestler who is undefeated and didn't wrestle either guy benefits greatly.

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If Zain beats Stieber again, he's in the best position, obviously. I just don't see it happening.

 

If Zain loses to Stieber, he would have been better off losing the first time around. Logan would be the 1 seed and Zain would get Port on his side of the bracket with the no. 3 seed. He'll now likely get Logan, because Port will be number 1. Stieber > Port IMO

 

This makes sense.

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If Zain beats Stieber again, he's in the best position, obviously. I just don't see it happening.

 

If Zain loses to Stieber, he would have been better off losing the first time around. Logan would be the 1 seed and Zain would get Port on his side of the bracket with the no. 3 seed. He'll now likely get Logan, because Port will be number 1. Stieber > Port IMO

 

This makes sense.

If Stieber avenges his loss then Port gets the 1. I can't see an undefeated wrestler losing the 1 seed to someone with a loss. If Zain wins, he has a strong case for getting the 1, but then Port gets the 2 and Stieber the 3 because Port still has the zero in his record.

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I was sitting behind the parents of Retherford's opponent for the state finals his freshman year in HS. After Retherford won, his opponent later came up to sit with his parents for the rest of the finals. His dad asked how Zain felt and his opponent said, "he may be small but he is freakin strong!". The word is he weighed in at 101lbs the day of the finals when the actual weight was +2 lbs growth allowance plus +2 lbs weight allowance was 107lbs.

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I was sitting behind the parents of Retherford's opponent for the state finals his freshman year in HS. After Retherford won, his opponent later came up to sit with his parents for the rest of the finals. His dad asked how Zain felt and his opponent said, "he may be small but he is freakin strong!". The word is he weighed in at 101lbs the day of the finals when the actual weight was +2 lbs growth allowance plus +2 lbs weight allowance was 107lbs.

 

Another example of why the bottom weight class (then 103) needs to be retained in HS, not cut as periodically gets argued for on this forum. Many great college wrestlers began as lightweight freshmen.

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I was sitting behind the parents of Retherford's opponent for the state finals his freshman year in HS. After Retherford won, his opponent later came up to sit with his parents for the rest of the finals. His dad asked how Zain felt and his opponent said, "he may be small but he is freakin strong!". The word is he weighed in at 101lbs the day of the finals when the actual weight was +2 lbs growth allowance plus +2 lbs weight allowance was 107lbs.

 

Another example of why the bottom weight class (then 103) needs to be retained in HS, not cut as periodically gets argued for on this forum. Many great college wrestlers began as lightweight freshmen.

Jordan Oliver fits the bill here. I don't think he had to get undressed to make 103 during his Frosh year at Easton Area.

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The #1 seed @ 141 will be big this year and Retherford getting that seed would involve beating Stieber @ B1G and Port to lose one of his three final dual matches against three very tough 141 pounders:

 

02/14 Port vs Edgar Bright (Pitt)

02/21 Port vs Tyler Smalls (Kent State)

02/22 Port vs Colin Johnston (West Virginia)

 

Notable matches for Port's next three opponents:

 

Colin Johnston (West Virginia) Dec Edgar Bright 4-3

Colin Johnston Dec Nick Lester (Oklahoma) 6-2

Colin Johnston Dec Dan Neff (Lock Haven) 12-7

 

Tyler Small (Kent State) dec Edgar Bright 7-4

Tyler Small Dec Colin Johnston (West Virginia) 7-2

 

Edgar Bright Dec Joe Spisak (Virginia) 5-3

Edgar Bright Dec Erik Spjut (Virginia Tech) 2-1

 

Only previous meeting between Port and any of his next three opponents was only between Small and Port in the 2011-12 season where Port lost:

Tyler Small Dec Mitchell Port (Edinboro) 5-2

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If Retherford wins the BIG he should be the #1 seed. For one, previous seasons are not taken into account for NCAA seedlings. It caused a bit of a fuss a couple of years ago when Ruth was seeded over Amuchadtgi. Zain will have gone unbeaten with a much tougher schedule.

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If Retherford wins the BIG he should be the #1 seed. For one, previous seasons are not taken into account for NCAA seedlings. It caused a bit of a fuss a couple of years ago when Ruth was seeded over Amuchadtgi. Zain will have gone unbeaten with a much tougher schedule.

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If Retherford wins the BIG he should be the #1 seed. For one, previous seasons are not taken into account for NCAA seedlings. It caused a bit of a fuss a couple of years ago when Ruth was seeded over Amuchadtgi. Zain will have gone unbeaten with a much tougher schedule.

 

I agree. Beating Stieber twice in one season to go undefeated into nationals would be impossible to ignore. He'd be a clear #1 in my eyes given his much stronger schedule.

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Why aren’t previous years results taken into account? If thats true then yeah clearly Zain should get it should be beat Steiber again.

 

I don’t know how I feel about ZR v Steiber II… first time around I thought Retherford was amazing but not enough so to beat a upperclass man Logan Steiber but he did it through pretty basic hard nosed wrestling.

 

And while I still think Steiber is better technically and probably stronger physically I have seen Retherford get better and tougher every time out on the mat. In neutral Zain has looked great with his head hands defense, on top just smothering the hell out of his opponents, and in keeping a clear head about where he is and what he needs to do to win. Seems unreal for a true freshman in the B1G to wrestle like that and still be undefeated with a 2x champ in your weight class.

 

Stieber has been beating up on almost everyone but he just hasn’t looked very crisp to me… even well after the ZR loss. Still not setting up his shots all the time (I know he usually has no problem even without setups), looking tired in the third, getting reversed and or ridden out by much lessor opponents. Like against Purdue… that was painful to watch. After the summer he had (opan sat + other matches) THEN beating a much bigger Maple I figured he would be looking untouchable… I don’t know if its pressure or the stronger guys at 141 or what but we know he can beat the best of the best when he is on his game.

 

I would likely still give Steiber the benefit of the doubt if I had a gun to my head but I wouldn’t be too confident in that.

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Why aren’t previous years results taken into account? If thats true then yeah clearly Zain should get it should be beat Steiber again.

 

I don’t know how I feel about ZR v Steiber II… first time around I thought Retherford was amazing but not enough so to beat a upperclass man Logan Steiber but he did it through pretty basic hard nosed wrestling.

 

And while I still think Steiber is better technically and probably stronger physically I have seen Retherford get better and tougher every time out on the mat. In neutral Zain has looked great with his head hands defense, on top just smothering the hell out of his opponents, and in keeping a clear head about where he is and what he needs to do to win. Seems unreal for a true freshman in the B1G to wrestle like that and still be undefeated with a 2x champ in your weight class.

 

Stieber has been beating up on almost everyone but he just hasn’t looked very crisp to me… even well after the ZR loss. Still not setting up his shots all the time (I know he usually has no problem even without setups), looking tired in the third, getting reversed and or ridden out by much lessor opponents. Like against Purdue… that was painful to watch. After the summer he had (opan sat + other matches) THEN beating a much bigger Maple I figured he would be looking untouchable… I don’t know if its pressure or the stronger guys at 141 or what but we know he can beat the best of the best when he is on his game.

 

I would likely still give Steiber the benefit of the doubt if I had a gun to my head but I wouldn’t be too confident in that.

 

Its those long bus rides and average officials.

 

Zain and Logan, should be some seriously fun wrestling to watch. Throw Port into the mix at nationals and the fun gets better. 3 tough SOBs who can flat out wrestle.

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