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tommygun

Intermat Rankings Laughable

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http://intermatwrestle.com/rankings/college/Team

 

i am glad they posted the difference in dual and tournament scores

 

the tournament scoring helps teams like Oklahoma and Oklahoma state while the hurt solid dual programs like pitt and northern iowa and cornell who would could upset the balance of power which the big programs don't want

 

big ten and big 12 have 5 teams in the top 5 for tournaments

big ten and big 12 have 3 teams in the top 5 for duals

 

big ten and big 12 have 8 teams in the top 10 for tournaments

big ten and big 12 have 6 teams in the top 10 for duals

 

helping the small schools ha ha ha riiiiiight

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teams not in the top 20 in one ranking but in the top 20 in the other

 

the small schools cael says are helped by using tournament scoring over duals

teams not ranked in duals but ranked in tournament

-northwestern -big ten

-Maryland -big ten next year

-Indiana -big ten

 

teams not ranked in tournament scoring but ranked in duals

-Pittsburgh

-north Dakota state

-purdue

-Virginia tech

 

good thing we use tournament scoring to help those disadvantaged big ten programs :roll:

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The B1G Ten co-champion Penn State Nittany Lions deserve their number one ranking when you consider that they annihilated the field at the Southern Scuffle (which included Minnie, Okie, Missouri, and Cornell), annihilated Iowa at in their dual, and only gave up a one point loss to Minnie in front of their home fans and a ref that made the wrong call at 149 that would have likely changed the outcome of the bout, and the dual.

 

Souther Scuffle top-five team scoring:

Penn State - 189.0

Okla State - 164.5

Minnesota - 161.0

Cornell - 114.5

Missouri - 102.5

 

#everythingcounts

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http://intermatwrestle.com/rankings/college/Team

 

these are a joke i am glad they posted the difference in dual and tournament scores the tournament scoring helps teams like Oklahoma and Oklahoma state while the hurt solid dual programs like pitt and northern iowa and cornell who would could upset the balance of power which the big programs don't want

 

big ten and big 12 have 8 teams in the top 10 for tournaments

big ten and big 12 have 6 teams in the top 10 for duals

 

helping the small schools ha ha ha riiiiiight

 

I think the difference in the dual and tournament scoring is interesting, and I am glad they are ranking the teams that way. I don't want to rehash the National Duals discussion regarding the point carry-over because it has been discussed and argued ad nauseum on every wrestling forum, but looking at the team/tournament rankings side-by-side - with the top three teams ranked differently - makes a compelling argument that the point carry-over could have a huge impact on the team race at the end of the season, which would bring more attention and excitement to the team standings and results at both events. And there is also an argument that such carry-over would add more validity to the top team left standing at the end of the season as an overall team with the best individuals and fewest holes/weak links.

--> (I just wanted to point that out - but i understand the argument both ways)

 

BR - I agree with you that Cael's argument is flawed.

 

I believe the better argument for helping the small schools doesnt necessarily assume that small schools will somehow rise to the top and create overwhelming parity in NCAA wrestling, because the top schools will always be the top schools. But the argument for helping smaller schools should go to creating more excitement and coverage and national events for the sport, which will help the sport overall. This will have the most impact on small schools with little current support for wrestling.

 

For example, would wrestling have been dropped at UNCG or BC if the sport had more national coverage and more casual fans? Probably not because the sport would have more validity and respect among non-fans because the non-fans would KNOW that it was a popular sport to many.

 

As an example of what ESPN coverage can accomplish - just look to the popularity of Texas Hold 'Em after ESPN started airing the World Series of Poker. Vegas Casinos, who hate Texas Hold 'Em because it is practically a non-revenue game for them, were forced to provide more Hold 'Em tables (taking up precious floor space), to accommodate the demand for people wanting to play.

 

All I'm saying is that increasing the national sports media coverage for the sport we love will only serve to help our sport overall, and could cause future ADs to look elsewhere in determining which sport to cut - which will inevitably help the small schools.

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and only gave up a one point loss to Minnie in front of their home fans and a ref that made the wrong call at 149 that would have likely changed the outcome of the bout, and the dual.

 

 

SOUR GRAPES'D! Penn State fans LOVE making excuses.

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So a loss to Michigan is better then PSU's 1 point loss to Minnesota on the road, on Sr. day, with a bad call that affected the outcome, hhmmm.....

 

..........oh and funny how all of a sudden they decide to add dual rankings right after PSU loses. Mid-Western bias alive and well in college wrestling.

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… Yes i’m sure small schools will find huge benefits in being excluded from participation in the first part of the NCAA tournament…

 

*sarcasm off*

 

ESPN/media coverage is great. Which is why i’m pumped that they have continued to increase coverage for the individual NCAA tournament to every match wrestled.

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For the most part I think they do ok. I have 2 areas of contention. Ian Miller moving up to 4th makes no sense. He lost 2 of his last 3 matches and has not wrestled since his last match which was an injury default. Storley beats Brown handily and gets NO LOVE. Kokesh moves to 3rd having not wrestled either Brown or Storley. The dreaded and feared Evans ankle ride win is costing Storley big time.........

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FT

 

With a bad call that could have effected the outcome. The call effected the match for certain, but the outcome is unknown. There is no garantee the remaining time plays out as it did.

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… Yes i’m sure small schools will find huge benefits in being excluded from participation in the first part of the NCAA tournament…

 

*sarcasm off*

 

ESPN/media coverage is great. Which is why i’m pumped that they have continued to increase coverage for the individual NCAA tournament to every match wrestled.

 

the small schools are not excluded in the proposal. they have a chance at qualifying for the tournament just like anyone else. teams of all size and reputation are treated equally.

 

the "small" schools benefit by having the ability to get individual AAs, but they are not helped at all by the current team scoring system. only the top 4-5 programs have a legitimate shot at winning it, and it is impossible for a team ranked outside the top 8 to make any meaningful run at the title. in basketball, its a virtual toss up between the top 8 teams, and teams 9-25 all have legitimate shots at winning it.

 

the current individual NCAA tournament is great. the team scoring system is not, especially not form the perspective of the "small" school. it could use some messing with to help out the rest of the D1 programs.

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… Yes i’m sure small schools will find huge benefits in being excluded from participation in the first part of the NCAA tournament…

 

*sarcasm off*

 

I think you missed my point. I would be willing to bet that small schools with a basketball program with no hopes of participating in March Madness (or, for that matter, the NAIA), still benefit from the popularity of the sport among casual fans and the basketball players and basketball alumni.

 

The belief that a school only benefits from a sport by winning is seriously flawed. Many small schools, like Gardner-Webb, recieve many benefits from its wrestling program, the local fans, the coaches, the athletes, and the wrestling alumni.

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… Yes i’m sure small schools will find huge benefits in being excluded from participation in the first part of the NCAA tournament…

 

*sarcasm off*

 

I think you missed my point. I would be willing to bet that small schools with a basketball program with no hopes of participating in March Madness (or, for that matter, the NAIA), still benefit from the popularity of the sport among casual fans and the basketball players and basketball alumni.

 

The belief that a school only benefits from a sport by winning is seriously flawed. Many small schools, like Gardner-Webb, recieve many benefits from its wrestling program, the local fans, the coaches, the athletes, and the wrestling alumni.

 

For a lot of schools just having a guy make it to NCAAs is a fairly big deal, and getting an All American is a huge deal. Look at NDSU this year, they are hardly a scrub team and are using Monk's success to really push their program as he tries to have an AA caliber season.

 

There's a big area between "give everybody a medal" and "You're either first or last". There's no reason not to celebrate successes that aren't just being a national champion. Because if you do that you end up with decent programs like BC being dropped.

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Some interesting notes on what has been posted above.

 

During the Super Bowl, 150,000 people watched ESPN reruns or poker. This shows that if there is a niche market the fans will watch it even if the rest of the world is tuned into something else. This is why wrestling is such a good alternative in programing to NCAA Basketball. http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2014/02 ... -olympics/

 

flabigredfan - Here are a few points I made last year on the topic. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14451#p177885

 

As far as your other concern about dropped programs. We have had programs greatly harmed by the quest to get an individual on the podium. The key to getting a guy on the podium, which is the easiest way to elevate your team score currently, is to land a top prospect. Some programs with limited resources have put all of their scholarship money into two or three guys in hopes of landing some top kids and then getting them to nationals. This is a high risk game with the APR since they only judge scholarship athletes so you can't have them run into any academic issues or your program will get a post season ban. Additionally, in the event you face any injuries you are hurting as a team in duals and tournaments which makes your program look even less competitive. (Programs have been dropped as a result of this, and others have taken a big step back as some kids transfer out)

 

Spreading out the money helps spread out the talent and allows you to compete better in duals, though not necessarily in the NCAA tournament (see Liberty or Chattanooga, for many years).

 

Husky - the expanded coverage is ESPN3. Though it is great, it doesn't do much to expand the following. It also does very little to educate people about the teams and athletes prior to the events. It does make it great for the current fans but I am more interested in the potential fans.

 

Additionally, small schools will be included. Edinboro, North Dakota State, and Chattanooga will all be included and get bonus points that Purdue, Indiana, and Northwestern will not. It is fine to be against the proposal. If you like the current format you can argue that it is the best way to operate. But don't keep saying that there will be no small schools that get any benefit from it. Every conference champ will get a boost which will help the small schools who get it despite not really being qualified just as schools in basketball get into the tournament without having a resume worthy of qualifying.

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SOUR GRAPES'D! Penn State fans LOVE making excuses.

This is what I'm sayin'...

 

Who cares if our officials just give points away. Should it really matter if they are earned or not? These people act as if sport should be on the up and up. Besides, not like anyone watches wrestling anyway. I say we just turn it all into the collegiate WWF and be done with it.

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Again… messing with NCAAs in order to help small schools… by excluding all but the top 16 teams from that part of the NCAA tournament. Where in the next part ALL schools with a qualifier will allowed to compete.

 

I do not see positive bump to small schools that happen to be outside of the top of the top of the team seeds.

 

The team scoring aspect of the NCAA tournament IS great. Its one of the things that make it such a special tournament. Since it allows us to actually find out who is the best team with the best wrestlers in the nation is and who is 2nd best, 3rd best, so on.

 

Duals are already very exciting and count in and of themselves. No need to change NCAAs to make them exciting.

 

Intermats team rankings look fine. I actually like how they rank both the dual meet rankings and tournament points. Since they are so different from each other that makes sense to me.

 

And woah fla what would possibly make you think this proposal would make wrestling MORE popular!? The national championship for duals (National Duals) has had 25 years to bring in fans, become enticing to top teams, and maybe get itself on ESPN or another sports broadcast. Yet?…

 

I know schools get benefit from simply having the wrestling team on campus and I’ve never said anything to the contrary. Even small schools. Actually ESPECIALLY small schools since the wrestling team may be “the football team” on campus.

 

Yes Township I can’t wait until that happens in our national tournament dual meet.

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i should have added that its only my opinion that the team scoring system is less than idea and should be messed with.

 

as for which schools would benefit form the change in the scoring (but not the tournament - that stays the same!) - i'll leave that to the coaches and admins of the schools. it would appear that most schools are in favor of a change, which would lead me to believe that they think their school would benefit!

 

but maybe they've changed their minds and don't like the proposal. either way, i'd really hope we get to hear from all of them soon.

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Thanks for that link to your post from a few years ago Pinnum. That was well-explained as to how the duals has the potential to increase excitement for wrestling at all levels - and I agree.

 

Husky - my point is that duals could possibly be the key to unlock the Catch-22 in which wrestling is currently stuck behind. The catch-22 is that popularity for wrestling will increase as more coverage is given and more people are exposed to it, but increased coverage won't happen unless and until the sport becomes more popular.

 

"Build it and they will come." --> Create more opportunities for excitement among our sport, and the media coverage will increase on the major networks (ESPN, NBC, FOX, etc.), and popularity for wrestling will grow.

 

I don't know if the proposal for the National Duals is the answer, but the argument for a change like that is strong. The only thing I'm convinced of is that the current system surely isnt the answer. Sure, ESPN now broadcasts NCAA finals live, and provides more coverage for the NCAA tournament on its subscription network websites and channels that only the die-hards will look for hard enough to actually find. But, I would argue that ESPN3 - where most of the wrestling is covered, is considered third fiddle to ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, ESPNClassic, and probably a few more. By "building" the opportunities to provide more major sports coverage on wrestling, the small schools will benefit much more than the bigger schools that already have the die-hard fan support. Besides, the proposal, as I understand it, would provide for smaller schools that win their conference to get an automatic bid into the Dual Tournament - similar to March Madness.

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They are all pretty laughable. Flo still has Schiller ranked 1. Intermat has Scheptock 1 at 184. Find me a person that would take Sheptock over Ruth with money on the line. Please!

 

it would be nice if there was a vegas futures market for NCAA champs. it would be a most reliable ranking we'd ever get.

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For the most part I think they do ok. I have 2 areas of contention. Ian Miller moving up to 4th makes no sense. He lost 2 of his last 3 matches and has not wrestled since his last match which was an injury default. Storley beats Brown handily and gets NO LOVE. Kokesh moves to 3rd having not wrestled either Brown or Storley. The dreaded and feared Evans ankle ride win is costing Storley big time.........

 

The only case against Miller at 4 is he is injured. He lost 2 of his last 3 yes, but a SV OT loss to Dierenger, and an injury default. The other match of the 3, he annihilated Chino of Ohio. Don't get it twisted, Miller can beat every single person at 157. Every single one.

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