DOWN GOES BURROUGHS!!!!!

[ccrider55 16]

Everyone should know that 2+2 > 1 + 1 + 2 :) So much more making wrestling easier for the casual fan. But it seems that even many on this site don't understand also.

 

 

I think you're selling the average fan short here. Soccer. the most popular sport in the world frequently has tie scores which end in one team winning and fans follow this fine. If I'm not mistaken, the same exists in hockey. Don't quote me on that one, I haven't watched a hockey match in years and that was probably only because someone tuned the tv to the channel and I had no say in changing it. Fans can understand, they're not all stupid.

 

Casual observer: 4-4, oh how's that a win?

 

Fan: Well there's criteria.

 

Casual observer: Oh I see, like in socccer with penalty kicks?

 

fan: Yeah, like that, only different.

Soccer uses criteria only if a two game (home and home) qualifier series winds up 1-1-0 or 0-0-2. In individual games they have overtimes, shoot outs, and ties that remain ties.

[dsnc471 25]

As silly as losing with a tie score is, I actually thought Burroughs had a greater chance of losing under the now (thankfully) old rules of best 2 of 3 with ball grabs and 1-1 periods. I thought he would be nearly impossible to beat under the current rules with cumulative scoring. I guess in hindsight we can say he was bound to lose because all the greats have, but I'm still surprised that it happened now and to Marable.

[GranbyTroll 388]

So the criteria was Marable 2 tds to Burroughs 1 shot clock pt, 1 push out, 1 td?

 

more higher scores. two 2's v. two 1's and one 2.

 

More higher scores. I thought it was just Highest Score, then onto the next criteria.

 

Props to Marable for taking down the man, but FILA should take note that not only can international fans not follow the criteria, but the scorer's table also messed it up by showing Burroughs in the lead for a period of time.

[sgallan 592]

Wow is my only response.

[armspin 257]

IMO there was some of JB taking it too easy and part great defense by Marable. He didn't give up anything until he could afford to and was more worried with preventing exposure. I thought JB might be vulnerable as he recently got married and is having a kid- new priorities for sure! Would not have picked Marable to do it though.

[ConcreteFeet 0]

Going back to the link and rewatching it, I was able to see every scoring action in the match. Here's what happened in my eyes:

 

Not much action in the first period, but JB was a little more active, which put Marable on the shot clock at the 2:00 mark. Marable put a few decent attacks together toward the end of the :30 but couldn't convert. JB took a shot in the last :10 but couldn't score. JB leads 1-0 at the 3:00 mark.

 

At the 5:00 mark, Marable shot a single when JB reached, and finished about 10 seconds later. Marable leads 2-1.

 

At the 5:12 mark, JB hit a low ankle, converted it to a double and tried to run Marable out of bounds (away from the camera). It was hard to tell if Marable stepped out, or if JB stepped out, but Marable hit a reshot after sprawling and the TD was awarded to Marable. 4-1 Marable leads.

 

At the 5:40 mark, JB got a pushout. 4-2 Marable leads.

 

JB converts a shot to a TD with :14 left and the match ends with JB on top. JB gave Marable a tap on the back after time expired and both walked to the center with little to no emotion.

[RetiredPoster 87]

This was the piece of pie JB needed....Look out world. Nice job by Marable!!!

[Cletus_Tucker 888]

Everyone should know that 2+2 > 1 + 1 + 2 :) So much more making wrestling easier for the casual fan. But it seems that even many on this site don't understand also.

 

 

I think you're selling the average fan short here. Soccer. the most popular sport in the world frequently has tie scores which end in one team winning and fans follow this fine. If I'm not mistaken, the same exists in hockey. Don't quote me on that one, I haven't watched a hockey match in years and that was probably only because someone tuned the tv to the channel and I had no say in changing it. Fans can understand, they're not all stupid.

 

Casual observer: 4-4, oh how's that a win?

 

Fan: Well there's criteria.

 

Casual observer: Oh I see, like in socccer with penalty kicks?

 

fan: Yeah, like that, only different.

Soccer uses criteria only if a two game (home and home) qualifier series winds up 1-1-0 or 0-0-2. In individual games they have overtimes, shoot outs, and ties that remain ties.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

The point again is you see tie scores and there is a winner. It will be specified how they won, penalty kicks, criteria, etc . Wrestling should also show the method of tie breaker with the final tie score to avoid confussion.

[ccrider55 16]

Cletus: I see what you are trying to say, but you're incorrect. You don't see a tie score. Soccer matches end with a leader on the scoreboard if there is a shootout. The only criteria would be in the H & H series's that demand a winner to advance (like the World Cup qualifiers). 1: Team A wins at home 3-1, team B wins 2-1 at their home. Team A advances from a 1-1-0 series on goal differential. 2: Team A wins 2-1 at home, B wins 3-2 - goal diff is equal but B advances on most goals scored (3-2 outweighs 2-1). 3: not sure how they resolve 0-0-2 H&H. Perhaps most corner kicks? Schedule an emergency neutral sight third game? The first two are criteria whereas winning a game 3-2 in a shootout is scoring more times in a match. OT and shootout are included as part of that match and are reflected in the score.

[Stl 44]

Marable's first takedown was offensive. He got a single and was methodical with finishing it while JB tried to fend it off

[Jaroslav Hasek 1,751]

didn't burroughs have a match in the USA team trials that went to OT that he would have lost if they stopped on criteria? thot i saw that. not that that match or this one changes anything with regards to burroughs. he is one of the greats. can't wait to see what happens next tournament he wrestles in.

 

i dont mind ending matches on criteria in tournaments. in the finals or in one off matches i'd prefer to see things settled on the mat in OT, but if you've got more matches ahead of you, i'm fine ending all matches at regulation. same way you have ties in the regular season of hockey but unlimited OT in the playoffs. pretty agnostic about it though, whatever the rules are.

[GranbyTroll 388]

didn't burroughs have a match in the USA team trials that went to OT that he would have lost if they stopped on criteria? .

 

2013 World Team Trials Finals vs Dake

Match 2: Tied score at the end of regulation, Dake would have won on criteria for having a 3-point score had USAW not implemented unlimited overtime for the WTT. USAW tweaked a few of the then FILA sanctioned rules, including increasing the tech-fall from 7pt to 10pt.

[armspin 257]

I'm a huge proponent of ot over criteria but if they must use it the criteria needs to be friggin simple. Last point and done, not a whole confusing list.

 

JBs inability to gut wrench has been a bit of a runnin joke, with Jordan's wife even teasing him about it but it sure hurt him here.

 

I think it's at least feasible that Marable becomes a major player he has now beaten JB and Dake and won some goo international tournaments. Just needs to beat top guys more consistently.

[flwrestler14 0]

I'm a huge proponent of ot over criteria but if they must use it the criteria needs to be friggin simple. Last point and done, not a whole confusing list.

 

JBs inability to gut wrench has been a bit of a runnin joke, with Jordan's wife even teasing him about it but it sure hurt him here.

 

I think it's at least feasible that Marable becomes a major player he has now beaten JB and Dake and won some goo international tournaments. Just needs to beat top guys more consistently.

 

When did he beat Dake? And I think he's in a great training situation and improving more than ever. Glad we could get a surprise guy here who just makes the weight even tougher. Too bad we don't have more weights with this level of talent and depth.

[armspin 257]

I don't know when he beat Dake to be honest, I've heard it repeated so often I assume it happened maybe at WTT a few years back? I looked at a few Marable matches and he's always close even when he doesn't win, except for that beating DT gave him at nationals last year. Marable vs JB in the US national finals was a very tough match as well.

[IvyDoc 0]

Marable beat Dake in 2011. That was the summer after Dake won NCAAs at 149 lbs. Dake beat Marable twice in 2012, about a month after he won 157 lbs.

[2td3nf 459]

Any video link to the JB-Marable match?

 

As far as JB's guts, what about his leglaces? In the past, he's hit some beautiful laces and turns right off his takedowns. Would like to see that more often.

[2td3nf 459]

Just found the video on youtube.

[acadia 0]

Makes you realize how ridiculous Karelins streak was.

[PRyan2012 328]

Makes you realize how ridiculous Karelins streak was.

 

I agree. I really do think he is the greatest hands down and that is very hard for me to say about a Greco guy. He and Watabe had the longest streaks. I so wanted Burroughs to be part of that conversation but Burroughs wrestled alot of close matches in there so eventually yu lose those close ones. Karilen had almost no close matches during his streak and wrestled two more cycles than Watabe.

[AnklePicker 380]

Makes you realize how ridiculous Karelins streak was.

 

I agree. I really do think he is the greatest hands down and that is very hard for me to say about a Greco guy. He and Watabe had the longest streaks. I so wanted Burroughs to be part of that conversation but Burroughs wrestled alot of close matches in there so eventually yu lose those close ones. Karilen had almost no close matches during his streak and wrestled two more cycles than Watabe.

 

Karelin wrestled at 120KG and he did so prior to the break up of the Soviet Union. Apples to oranges compared to Burroughs.

[gutfirst 214]

ap,

 

what do you mean? i get there's a major difference, comparing burrough's streak to what karelin did is nonsense. but what does the pre soviet break up and weight class have to do with it?

[AnklePicker 380]

I think 74kg is a much deeper weight class and harder to win. Just more competitors. I could be wrong. I guess break up isn't that meaningful since he beat everyone and wrestled after the break up. I do however feel those former soviet countries have developed over the years.

[gutfirst 214]

i see. allow me to retort. karelin pinned or won big for 12 years straight. half of which were after the break up. no wrestler ever inspired more fear in his opponents and backed it up with a punishing offense. world medalists literally rolled to their back to get pinned on purpose.

 

remember, although karelin was known for his reverse lift, there was no forced par terre for the first 4 or 5 years of his career. which means he had to be very effective scoring from his feet just to get on top to be well know for his lift. best ever, no one close and he doesn't get enough credit because most people think of him as one dimensional.

[GranbyTroll 388]

After watching Karelin on YouTube a few times, I can confidently say that he outclassed a few people in neutral. He made world level heavy weights look like almost everyone that Ruth has faced in the last two years. Karelin's takedowns just looked effortless.