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JB loses to Marable

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Just curious why it has to be an elite LEG attack?

 

Because it's tough to be a world champion if you can't reliably score on anyone off of offense you initiated. Technically that does not need to include leg attacks, but as a practical matter that's how it normally works.

 

Dake had a total of two takedowns in his four matches with Burroughs, Tsargush, and Gadzhiev, and those takedowns came off counters that led to scrambling situations. In contrast they took him down about ten times. In order to be a world champ, you would expect a more reliable ability to initiate offense against the world's best.

 

It seems like the JB fans have want all his domestic competition to just give up, concede that JB is untouchable and that they're not worthy to attempt to dethrone him.

 

Nobody is suggesting Dake should quit. He's an NCAA legend and elite in the USA. My only point is at the moment, Dake does not have the kind of offense world champs generally have. He could improve and get to that level in the future. But he's not there yet.

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Not all world champs have signature moves. What would you say Tsargush's signature move was? He was a 2X world champ and would have won several more if not for Burroughs. All-time greats tend to have signature moves, but most world champs are just good, while not necessarily being flashy or revolutionizing the sport.

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it is strange that there has been very little mention of marable in all of this we talk about burroughs and dake when it is a marable story hell he won the whole thing it wasn't just a win over burroughs this was a solid field and he won it all he took on a more challenging event than dake and he won it so this is a story of marable lets forget the college days maybe marable is the best behind burroughs

 

how did dake do with the Russian in the dual at cornell and how did marable so against him at nyac it seems marable has improved a ton since college so lets give him his due

 

burroughs

marable

fay

howe

dake

Paulson

taylor

 

this weight is loaded

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Not all world champs have signature moves. What would you say Tsargush's signature move was? He was a 2X world champ and would have won several more if not for Burroughs. All-time greats tend to have signature moves, but most world champs are just good, while not necessarily being flashy or revolutionizing the sport.

 

Agreed. What was Saitiev's signature TD? He is in my opinion the best freestyler wrestler ever. Some of his best TD "offense" was executed after an opponent got in on his legs.

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it is strange that there has been very little mention of marable in all of this we talk about burroughs and dake when it is a marable story hell he won the whole thing it wasn't just a win over burroughs this was a solid field and he won it all he took on a more challenging event than dake and he won it so this is a story of marable lets forget the college days maybe marable is the best behind burroughs

 

how did dake do with the Russian in the dual at cornell and how did marable so against him at nyac it seems marable has improved a ton since college so lets give him his due

 

burroughs

marable

fay

howe

dake

Paulson

taylor

 

this weight is loaded

 

Good point - I'm pretty sure Marable and Dake are 1-1 at this time, going back as far as the 2011 trials.

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Not all world champs have signature moves. What would you say Tsargush's signature move was? He was a 2X world champ and would have won several more if not for Burroughs. All-time greats tend to have signature moves, but most world champs are just good, while not necessarily being flashy or revolutionizing the sport.

 

Tsargush can hit sweep singles and low singles against anybody in the world.

 

World champions usually have the ability to create their own offense and reliably score with it. Dake is mostly known for great positioning, great defense, great scrambling, and in folkstyle, great riding. He can also reliably create his own offense and score against anybody in the US. But he hasn't shown he can do that against anybody in the world. Like I said a million times, he might get there in future. But he's not there now.

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But he hasn't shown he can do that against anybody in the world. Like I said a million times, he might get there in future. But he's not there now.

 

He has just started competing internationally and is all of 22 years old, younger than many guys who are still competing in college. How many matches does he have against world champ level guys anyway to definitively state that he can't take down top competition? Cael couldn't take some guys down after college either. Did he not have "elite" TDs and was he too unlikely to be successful?

 

Judging his ability now is completely irrelevant. It's the future that counts. So far, I'd say Dake has done quite well, and better than most expected, in his limited international experience to date.

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Saitiev was a freak who could score using almost anything. I'd call his shrug by his signature td, maybe, but he also had a good low single, arm spin, everything... Magical with crotch lift counters but that's not really a td.

 

Dake would do well to emulate the younger Saitiev who never took a conventional shot but worked the ties to trips, throws and unconventional leg pick ups. Same with Marable who won this match, as he has many others, with defensive scrambling.

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Saitiev was a freak who could score using almost anything. I'd call his shrug by his signature td, maybe, but he also had a good low single, arm spin, everything... Magical with crotch lift counters but that's not really a td.

 

Dake would do well to emulate the younger Saitiev who never took a conventional shot but worked the ties to trips, throws and unconventional leg pick ups. Same with Marable who won this match, as he has many others, with defensive scrambling.

 

That's exactly my point. Saitiev didn't have a signature TD. His signature TD was... winning whatever position he was in 90% of the time. He is a guy who like Dake had uncommon proprioceptive and scrambling ability and was even better defensively than he was offensively from the feet. He is also the all-time best freestyler.

 

I'm not saying Dake is the second coming of Saitiev. But I'm saying there's more than one way to be a world champion and looking at Smith, Sanderson, and JB as the only model to forecast international success is closed-minded and misinformed. What was Randy Lewis's signature TD? What signature TD did Gene Mills, who won Tbilisi in dominant fashion when it was widely recognized as the toughest tourney in the world, have? What was Dave Schultz's signature leg attack? Did Kendall Cross have a signature TD that he could hit reliably on the most elite guys? There are many examples of elite American wrestlers (I'm not even going to go fishing for international names) who didn't have a TD at the level of the Smith low single or the Burroughs double who went on to win at the highest levels.

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But he hasn't shown he can do that against anybody in the world.

No, he hasn't, but for most wrestlers the only evidence that they can do it against anybody in the world is when they win Worlds, which makes the argument one of circular logic. "Only world champs can score on anyone in the world". When Burroughs won worlds in 2011, he hadn't proved himself on the world stage yet. He had won the US Open and Team Trials, and had a nice win at Beat the Streets, but hadn't done much to predict a world title yet…..until he beat Tsargush. Hindsight is always 20/20, but in May of 2011, not many folks were legitimately predicting Burroughs to be World Champ right away. Point being, there's no telling who will rise to the occasion in the coming years. Who thought Burroughs would lose here to Marable? Where was the unstoppable offense when he needed it?

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But he hasn't shown he can do that against anybody in the world.

No, he hasn't, but for most wrestlers the only evidence that they can do it against anybody in the world is when they win Worlds, which makes the argument one of circular logic.

 

I don't think so.

 

Dake has already wrestled Burroughs, Shabanau, Tsargush, Gadzhiev, and Aliev, so we can see where he's at right now.

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it is strange that there has been very little mention of marable in all of this we talk about burroughs and dake when it is a marable story hell he won the whole thing it wasn't just a win over burroughs this was a solid field and he won it all he took on a more challenging event than dake and he won it so this is a story of marable lets forget the college days maybe marable is the best behind burroughs

 

how did dake do with the Russian in the dual at cornell and how did marable so against him at nyac it seems marable has improved a ton since college so lets give him his due

 

burroughs

marable

fay

howe

dake

Paulson

taylor

 

this weight is loaded

 

I agree with you. Too little talk on the big improvement Marable has made. He won the tournament. A VERY tough bracket. Dake won a weak Cuban tourny. Too much infatuation with Dake IMO. I personally think Marable has established himself as the clear #2 guy behind JB. Unless Dake somehow manages to slip into another weight class, I don't see him even competing for a world title in any near future.

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Dake beat Marable not once but twice back when he was a 157 lbr bumping up to 74Kg. This was the same olympic trials where he pinned Taylor.

 

Congrats to Marable. He did very well in a tough tournment. He's very good.

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As much as I love Dake, I think everyone needs to remember though how close his match with Howe was last year. Everyone wants to put him as the clear #2 for the U.S., but in my mind he and Howe are tied for that spot. Matches simply don't get closer than the one they had at world team trials. That superduck he hit on Howe was absolutely sick, but he can't count on hitting that again.

 

When you say that Dake and Howe are tied for the #2 spot (which may in the future prove to be the case, Howe is a stud and has a great style for international) aren't you ignoring Taylor's tech of Howe? And lest you consider that a fluke, let's keep in mind that DT demolished Marable last year (no other word for it really) and beat Paulson.

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USA 74kg Depth Chart:

 

1) Burroughs

---

2) Dake

3) Howe

4) Taylor

---

5) Marable

6) Paulson

 

Even with Marable's win over Burroughs, we still have 3 clearly separate tiers of 74kg wrestlers. Dake, Taylor, and Howe have world medal potential and clearly stand above the rest of the field... except for Burroughs who is still (even considering his loss) on another level.

 

I will now resume trolling.

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Marable has won two international tournaments in the past two months and beat JB. He is vastly improved (Sammie Henson is one hell of a coach) but I feel most comfortable ranking him behind Burroughs and Dake. I would say there are 3 tiers:

 

Tier 1 (those with a legitimate chance to win)

1)JB

2)Dake

3)Marable

Tier 2 (those with a legitimate chance of upsetting 1 of the tier 1 guys but small chance of winning it all)

4)Taylor

5)Howe

6)Paulson

Tier 3 (those with little chance of upsetting any of the top 6 guys)

Everyone else

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This is a discussion better had on the international board, but here goes anyway.

 

You can't put Howe an entire tier below Dake. Dake beat him by the skin of his teeth and it took him forever and a day in OT to do it. During regulation, I thought Howe had the match won but Dake in typical Dake fashion just found a way. While I think Dake has more ultimate upside than Howe, it's hard to argue for anything but the slightest of gaps between the two now. I'll also note that Dake was coming off his best peak ever while Howe was coming off a long rehab period with minimal competition when they met over the summer. A match this summer, after a proper Howe peak and Dake coming off an injury himself, could easily be different.

 

Of course, that creates a tiering problem because Taylor beat Howe like a Conga drum the last time they wrestled, and there is as good a chance of that being a fluke as there is of that portending the outcome of Taylor vs. Howe 2. Very hard to know from that quick encounter.

 

Finally, as much as I agree that Dake, Howe and Taylor would've been above Marable, and significantly so, had the unthinkable not just occurred, the unthinkable did just occur. It is very hard to ignore that kind of data point. Marable beat not just JB, but also a pretty decent field in winning his first significant international tourney.

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I had the tiers based on those in Tier 1 as those who I could see winning the tournament, Tier 2 as those who I could see upsetting one of those in Tier 1 but not winning the tournament, and everyone else is in Tier 3. I can only see Dake, Burroughs or Marable winning the US Open because I feel they are the only ones who can put together a complete enough tournament to beat so many studs. I could see Howe beating Dake (though I find it very unlikely) but getting beat by Taylor and Taylor beating Marable (much more likely than Howe beating Dake) but not beating Dake and a bunch more scenarios.

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When you say that Dake and Howe are tied for the #2 spot (which may in the future prove to be the case, Howe is a stud and has a great style for international) aren't you ignoring Taylor's tech of Howe? And lest you consider that a fluke, let's keep in mind that DT demolished Marable last year (no other word for it really) and beat Paulson.

 

I'd like to see Taylor and Howe go at it when Howe is fresh. Dake and Howe had just had an intense 12 minute battle. Remember, both Dake and Howe walked out and got teched in their next match. I think that says something about how drained they were from their battle. I don't know who would win a Howe-Taylor rematch.I suspect Howe would have a slight edge, but I wouldn't be shocked if Taylor won either. I would be shocked if Taylor teched him again.

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