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BRGuy

minnesota has the best team who has the best individuals

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I think the main issue here with the PSU fans is the same issue with any PA wrestling fan. Ever since the internets came along, it became obvious that wrestling starts and ends with the Keystone State. Basically, I'm an overall wrestling fan and enjoy watching many different wrestlers.

 

It's easy to root against PSU. That said, I enjoy watching a few of their guys. I just try to tone their fans out.

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Penn State fans, please don't fall for any of this stinky bait.

 

J.Robinson, the Minnesota wrestlers, and everyone involved in wrestling knows how the NCAA Champions will be determined. The same way they've been determined forever, at the National Championships in Oklahoma City.

 

When there is this much envy, jealousy and hate, you know that you are great !!!!

 

Do the Penn State haters really not realize that doing everything in their power to try to take away from what Penn State has and continues to accomplish is the greatest compliment that they can give the program.

 

This is the most arrogant post I've ever read from a Penn State fan.

 

So J. Robinson, one of the most successful coaches in the sport's history, Minnesota, one of the most successful programs, and "everyone in wrestling" are all just trying to stick it to Cael and PSU when they say anything positive about the National Duals, the team champions, or the concept of change in college wrestling, which has gotten clobbered over the years to its current state?

 

In your view, anybody who is for change in the sport is anti-PSU. Anybody who wants to try something new because our sport is going the way of the dodo is basically a Cael hater and has it out for the almighty Nittany Lions. Anybody who enjoys watching duals and thinks that wrestling de-emphasizes the team aspect of the sport too much is envious of, jealous of, and hates the great PSU program.

 

What, there can't be people who genuinely believe that the dual format, with the involvement and support of all the top programs and the NCAA, could add value to the sport? Whether you agree with them or not, there can't be people who truly believe Minnesota is the best dual team in the country after beating PSU heads up? That's all just PSU haterade being passed around?

 

Get a grip.

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wrestlingnerd, if you want positive change in the sport then fix all of the stalling that goes on. Reward exciting aggressive OFFENSIVE wrestling.

 

This crazy proposal to morph the NCAA Championship is a bad idea. J Rob himself can't keep his answers straight. Half of what he stated in his post NWCA interview supports Cael's point of view.

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You know what's funny about all this. PSU split with Minnesota 5-5 and had more wins by bonus. So in fact, Penn State is "the best team who has the best individuals" as Minnesota won on the back of big bonus from one wrestler whose opponent was still trying to win instead of just trying to keep it close.

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wrestlingnerd, if you want positive change in the sport then fix all of the stalling that goes on. Reward exciting aggressive OFFENSIVE wrestling.

 

This crazy proposal to morph the NCAA Championship is a bad idea. J Rob himself can't keep his answers straight. Half of what he stated in his post NWCA interview supports Cael's point of view.

 

I have no problem with the fact that others may not like the dual proposal. I too was against it when I first heard about it but rethought my position and warmed up to the concept.

 

What I have a problem with is overzealous PSU fans making the debate about PSU. It has nothing to do with PSU specifically. Yes, PSU happens to be the most successful team of the past three years and therefore, it's involvement, as well as that of other highly successful programs like Iowa and Oklahoma State, is critical to the success of any new proposal, whether dual format or not. But the debate is NOT about hating PSU. Whenever someone starts a discussion about duals, it's not because PSU is universally hated. Whenever someone starts a discussion about Minnesota being the best dual team (it is, based on any objective evidence), it is not because they want to slight PSU.

 

I also have no problem with other efforts to "fix" wrestling, such as your proposed changes to stalling penalty enforcement. We don't have to pick just one fix to rally around.

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What I have a problem with is overzealous PSU fans making the debate about PSU. It has nothing to do with PSU specifically. Yes, PSU happens to be the most successful team of the past three years and therefore, it's involvement, as well as that of other highly successful programs like Iowa and Oklahoma State, is critical to the success of any new proposal, whether dual format or not. But the debate is NOT about hating PSU.

 

 

The proposal is a bad idea no matter what it is about on any given day. J Rob said it was about money, then he said it was about Duals being better, then he said it was about "the fans". He can't even decide what it is about.

 

It was very telling he was talking in an empty arena. One where his own team was competing. Even more telling what his own fans are doing. They are voting with their own wallets FOR home duals and AGAINST these team "events".

 

This silly stuff does not work. Only a few internet fans believe it is the solution. The majority are voting with their wallets AGAINST this idea. J Rob should start listening.

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This silly stuff does not work. Only a few internet fans believe it is the solution. The majority are voting with their wallets AGAINST this idea. J Rob should start listening.

 

As I said, I have no problem with anyone having an opinion, so have at it, that's what this forums was built for. I don't agree that the proposal is silly and I don't agree that its lack of a draw to date means the format can't work. If you take all the top teams out and do not market ANY championship concept, it will fail. We will never know if it can be successful or not until all 77 coaches who said they'd participate stop lying and make good of their word.

 

Your opinions are fine, I have no issue with them other than the fact that I disagree. But making every discussion about duals a PSU fan circle jerk is a bit much.

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wrestlingnerd, J Rob would have a case to make if he could have drawn more than several hundred fans to NWCA Duals. The fans are telling him they are not interested.

 

If Penn State had shown up at NWCA they'd have drawn better, but then we would not have had the sold out arena at Rec Hall on Sunday. 6800 fans in Rec Hall is better than 1500 PSU fans travelling to C'bus.

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wrestlingnerd, J Rob would have a case to make if he could have drawn more than several hundred fans to NWCA Duals. The fans are telling him they are not interested.

 

If Penn State had shown up at NWCA they'd have drawn better, but then we would not have had the sold out arena at Rec Hall on Sunday. 6800 fans in Rec Hall is better than 1500 PSU fans travelling to C'bus.

 

First, I disagree that the fans are telling JRob they're not interested.

 

However, I DO agree that if PSU had shown up, on that particular day at this particular point in time, fewer wrestling fans would have watched wresting over the long weekend. True!

 

Change takes time. Just like an immensely talented head coach can't take his team from also-ran to #1 coach in one season (see Cael), you also don't go from 50 or 60 years of history to instant success.

 

Change also takes the full participation of the top teams.

 

It also takes money and buy-in from the NCAA and the various media outlets relevant to wrestling.

 

In other words, has the National Duals event proven that it is an adequate replacement to the NCAAs? No. Has it proven that it could even be a complement? Probably not. Has it ever gotten a fair shot, even for one year? Absolutely not. Therefore, nothing has been proven or disproven.

 

In concept, I agree with JRob. You mock him by saying he is inconsistent. All the things you said he says, he's said from Day One. He hasn't changed his tune one bit.

 

I think JRob is the smartest business mind in the coaching ranks and he is genuinely interested in advancing the sport he loves before he retires. I personally believe part of the reason he has not retired is because he wants to lead the effort for change. It's not an ego thing or a Minnesota thing to him. He has already reached the top 1% in his field and has more success than what he knows what to do with. It's about recognizing that wrestling needs change and having the balls to further change when almost everyone else seems resistant to it -- to everyone's detriment.

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wrestlingnerd, J Rob is a very smart guy, no doubt. And I do not mock him. I would never do that. I just think he is wrong with this poorly thought out plan.

 

The proposal calls for these Virginia Duals to become a "component" in determining the NCAA Championship. One, that will alter the crown jewel of our sport, not good.

 

Aside from the fact it would potentially detract from The Tournament, I doubt it will drastically improve attendance at the event anyway. If it were to become the component J Rob wants it to become, it wouldn't crown the NCAA Champion, would it? No, it would not. So who wants to go spend three whole days watching an event, with all the requisite travel and financial requirements, just to find out who has the lead after three innings? C'mon, this idea is a poor idea and the fans are voting with their wallets already.

 

Finally, as you have accepted, 6800 Penn State wrestling fans is better than 1500 Penn State wrestling fans. Do that same math for Iowa, Oklahoma State and everyone else and it is easy 6to see that there would be more fans watching wrestling if the proposal FAILS than if it succeeds.

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The proposal as is stands today may have issues, but what work in progress doesn't? Our sport can't even agree on a set of rules for a single season without having to change something or other, and we've been at it for over half a decade! Taking pot shots at the National Duals concept as it stands right now is premature.

 

Fan attendance today means nothing when there is no buy-in at the highest coaching levels and there is not the type of media support and marketing that a proper national event that everyone buys into. When the National Duals start to matter to PSU, Iowa, Oklahoma State, etc. I guarantee you they will start to matter to the fans.

 

Also, comparing the dual attendance figures of a fledgling event to those of the dominant team in the country is ridiculous. People like winners, and PSU packs its duals because Cael created a monster. How packed were the stands when PSU was hoping to crack the top 10 every year? Even at PSU, it took time to fill the stands.

 

I am more interested in the concept than the details of where the proposal stands today. I like the idea that wrestling should have another marquee event that is not the individual tournament. I don't think it would hurt attendance to the individual tournament at all, since it's not really about the team anyway right now. As some posters have noted ad nauseum, the team title is an afterthought for the vast majority of fans. It's really about the individuals. So I think there is a place for a team concept.

 

I also like the idea of a championship concept that can be followed easily and is fan-friendly. i don't think tracking team performance at an individual tournament in which 90% of the fans are not properly equipped to track team scoring is fan-friendly. As well-attended as the NCAAs are, they are very well-attended mainly by former wrestlers and family members. The sport in its current state does not draw new fans that well. I think it could.

 

Finally, I like the idea of having an event that adds real significance to dual meets. NCAAs is one weekend in March. College wrestling runs for three or four months a year. The vast majority of wrestling is poorly attended, and I believe part of it is because there is no significance to duals. "It's all about March." You have coaches sandbagging duals, national champions stating publicly to the media that "I only care about March" (e.g. Chris Perry two weeks ago), the best teams not meeting up due to "scheduling issues", etc. None of that is ultimately good for the sport.

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Also, comparing the dual attendance figures of a fledgling event to those of the dominant team in the country is ridiculous. People like winners, and PSU packs its duals because Cael created a monster. How packed were the stands when PSU was hoping to crack the top 10 every year? Even at PSU, it took time to fill the stands.

 

This is true. But you are always going to have winners and losers. Minnesota was basically always going to win that duals tournament this past weekend, so maybe the Cornell fans, let alone all the fans of those less likely to win participants figured "hey, why travel three days back and forth from C'bus just to watch our team lose". This is an inherent problem with the Nat Duals format, and it matters not who is winning and losing.

 

 

I am more interested in the concept than the details of where the proposal stands today.

 

But you'd like everyone to just accept this proposal, then work out the details later. You'd make a good politician.

 

 

I also like the idea of a championship concept that can be followed easily and is fan-friendly. i don't think tracking team performance at an individual tournament in which 90% of the fans are not properly equipped to track team scoring is fan-friendly.

 

This is a red herring. While determining Tournament scoring is hard, following Tournament scoring is actually quite easy.

 

 

Finally, I like the idea of having an event that adds real significance to dual meets. NCAAs is one weekend in March. College wrestling runs for three or four months a year. The vast majority of wrestling is poorly attended, and I believe part of it is because there is no significance to duals. "It's all about March." You have coaches sandbagging duals, national champions stating publicly to the media that "I only care about March" (e.g. Chris Perry two weeks ago), the best teams not meeting up due to "scheduling issues", etc. None of that is ultimately good for the sport.

 

The biggest proponents of this crazy proposal sandbagged this past weekend. Koll sat Nevinger for one dual, Mark Cody wouldn't send Howe out there against Gabe Dean for the one match EVERYONE would want to see, and J Rob himself wouldn't wrestle Nelson, and then when asked about it he hypocritically called out the fans for questioning him. Hello?

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This is true. But you are always going to have winners and losers. Minnesota was basically always going to win that duals tournament this past weekend, so maybe the Cornell fans, let alone all the fans of those less likely to win participants figured "hey, why travel three days back and forth from C'bus just to watch our team lose". This is an inherent problem with the Nat Duals format, and it matters not who is winning and losing.

 

Really, competitions always have winners and losers? Thanks for the epiphany.

 

Minnesota wouldn't always win the duals if the top teams all showed up. (Except for this year, since they proved they are the best team by beating all of the top teams) But where were the top coaches, most of them who said they'd commit to the event but failed to deliver on their own words?

 

The fans aren't showing up in part because it's not a full event without the top teams, in part because few of the coaches rally their fan base to attend like they could (some notable top coaches even discourage it), in part because it is not as well-promoted as comparable events, in part because they have been conditioned to discard anything that is not the NCAA tournament as an afterthought not worth traveling to, and in part because it's a new event that will take time to build up.

 

I am more interested in the concept than the details of where the proposal stands today.

 

But you'd like everyone to just accept this proposal, then work out the details later. You'd make a good politician.

 

Looks to me like you're the politician, putting words in my mouth. I never said anyone should "just accept" anything. I said that I, wrestlingnerd, personally am interested in the concept. Nice try, though.

 

This is a red herring. While determining Tournament scoring is hard, following Tournament scoring is actually quite easy.

 

It's not a red herring. It's hard to determine how points are scored, and why, and when the scores are flashed, most people don't care. The tournament 3-day format is brutal on the average fan who is not a former wrestler or related to an active wrestler. It's basically a wrestling nerd convention, not much more. The NCAAs are "for us by us", and that'll get you exactly what it was designed to get: an inwardly focused, exclusive community of fans with limited growth.

 

I think NCAAs are great (I am, after all, a wrestling nerd), but having another event alongside it would be greater and create more opportunities to attract new fans.

 

The biggest proponents of this crazy proposal sandbagged this past weekend. Koll sat Nevinger for one dual, Mark Cody wouldn't send Howe out there against Gabe Dean for the one match EVERYONE would want to see, and J Rob himself wouldn't wrestle Nelson, and then when asked about it he hypocritically called out the fans for questioning him. Hello?

 

Nevinger has been injured and was always a match-time decision. Based on the way Lester rolled him over and stuck him, I'm guessing more than Nevinger's feelings were hurt.

 

Cody didn't send Howe out against Dean because that would've been an idiotic move for the team. I and others have covered the details of this in another thread. In short, when you have 3 guys left who can all score bonus to win or tie the dual, you don't send just one of them to face a guy he's 50/50 to beat, thereby giving yourself a 50% chance of completely screwing the entire team and losing right there if he loses.

 

JRob wouldn't wrestle Nelson because he had the dual won. That's not sandbagging. Is it sandbagging when an NFL team sends a second stringer in when victory is assured? No.

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People complain that Nelson is the most boring college wrestler and then they complain when he isn't the guy out on the mat? I thought everyone hated watching him?

 

Michael Kroells(Nelson's back up) is very exciting to watch for a heavyweight. Remember his name.

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Penn State fans, please don't fall for any of this stinky bait.

 

J.Robinson, the Minnesota wrestlers, and everyone involved in wrestling knows how the NCAA Champions will be determined. The same way they've been determined forever, at the National Championships in Oklahoma City.

 

When there is this much envy, jealousy and hate, you know that you are great !!!!

 

Do the Penn State haters really not realize that doing everything in their power to try to take away from what Penn State has and continues to accomplish is the greatest compliment that they can give the program.

 

This is the most arrogant post I've ever read from a Penn State fan.

 

So J. Robinson, one of the most successful coaches in the sport's history, Minnesota, one of the most successful programs, and "everyone in wrestling" are all just trying to stick it to Cael and PSU when they say anything positive about the National Duals, the team champions, or the concept of change in college wrestling, which has gotten clobbered over the years to its current state?

 

In your view, anybody who is for change in the sport is anti-PSU. Anybody who wants to try something new because our sport is going the way of the dodo is basically a Cael hater and has it out for the almighty Nittany Lions. Anybody who enjoys watching duals and thinks that wrestling de-emphasizes the team aspect of the sport too much is envious of, jealous of, and hates the great PSU program.

 

What, there can't be people who genuinely believe that the dual format, with the involvement and support of all the top programs and the NCAA, could add value to the sport? Whether you agree with them or not, there can't be people who truly believe Minnesota is the best dual team in the country after beating PSU heads up? That's all just PSU haterade being passed around?

 

Get a grip.

 

Whoa, wait a second. I believe you are putting words in my mouth. Please read the OP's comments. If you want to talk about dual meet team championships, I'm ready to talk. I have said all along, I think their should be a dual meet team champion & a tournament team champion. I think that creates the most excitement and makes the most sense. I've been told that isn't on the table and will never happen.

 

So, I think the next best thing is what has been introduced. Hold the duals tournament and add team points for Nationals based on those results. I think the timing is a bit off, but, I like the general idea.

 

My response had nothing to do with ripping the idea of national duals. It had everything to do with commenting on another post that was obviously made to try to take away from Penn State's accomplishments.

 

You can't simply open your eyes to all of the PSU posts that are seeing everything from their angle and then turn a blind eye to the plethora of posts that are made just to try to annoy PSU fans. I'll admit, they are both all over the board.

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