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TBar1977

J Rob's Own Fans Actions Speak Louder Than Words

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tbar keeps claiming that no coaches want this when the majority do

 

john smith even went on record saying he supported it but he just doesn't want to use one of his regular season dates at a neutral site he wants it to be a post season event viewtopic.php?f=11&t=327986

 

just because teams aren't there doesn't mean they don't support the proposal and want it to pass there are a lot of coaches that say they will go if the other programs go but they don't want to be there is a team like penn state is ducking it and might have an advantage at the ncaas as a result

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Minnesota fans showed up and packed their own gym for their on campus Dual meet with Penn State. They sold the place out.

 

Minnesota fans wouldn't go anywhere near Columbus, Ohio this past weekend for the NWCA Duals.

 

J Rob should watch what his own fan base is DOING. Forget what they say, watch what they actually DO.

 

You seem to have a fetish about this.

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National duals is only getting this much criticism because people are saying that it should be the premier event of the Division 1 season, not the proven winner NCAAs.

 

Except that's not what they're saying. Nobody wants to do away with the individual tournament or make it the second-class tournament in any way.

 

People were saying to take the team championship completely away from NCAA’s and give it to the National Duals.

 

Now since that didn’t fly the plan is to force teams (PSU, IA, OSU) to go the National Duals by carrying over points from two tournaments of completely different formatting.

 

One is worse than the other but both in my opinion degrade NCAAs.

 

My view is that it's additive without degrading the individual tourney.

But whether we agree on that point is irrelevant to the fact that, as I said, nobody wants to do away with the individual tourney. JRob is not asking coaches to shtcan everything and move exclusively to a dual format.

 

He is merely trying to add significance to the dual event to ensure participation and promotion and therefore new fan interest.

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Minnesota fans showed up and packed their own gym for their on campus Dual meet with Penn State. They sold the place out.

 

Minnesota fans wouldn't go anywhere near Columbus, Ohio this past weekend for the NWCA Duals.

 

J Rob should watch what his own fan base is DOING. Forget what they say, watch what they actually DO.

 

You seem to have a fetish about this.

 

 

I think he is just trying to gain favor with Cael by vehemently agreeing with everything he says in the hope one day he will be invited over for dinner.

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Minnesota fans showed up and packed their own gym for their on campus Dual meet with Penn State. They sold the place out.

 

Minnesota fans wouldn't go anywhere near Columbus, Ohio this past weekend for the NWCA Duals.

 

J Rob should watch what his own fan base is DOING. Forget what they say, watch what they actually DO.

 

You seem to have a fetish about this.

 

 

I think he is just trying to gain favor with Cael by vehemently agreeing with everything he says in the hope one day he will be invited over for dinner.

 

You think there was a squabble and he's no longer invited to family gatherings?

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National duals is only getting this much criticism because people are saying that it should be the premier event of the Division 1 season, not the proven winner NCAAs.

 

Except that's not what they're saying. Nobody wants to do away with the individual tournament or make it the second-class tournament in any way.

 

That was two year's ago, and that proposal failed. But what IS being said is to take 30% of the points away from the current Tournament and award them based what happens at this Duals event, and there are obviously a lot of folks who don't like that idea.

 

J Rob used this past weekend to promote this proposal, and he used some pretty strong language targeted at those who disagree with him. What are people supposed to do, just sit back and not offer a rebuttal? I'd rather our side be heard, thank you very much.

 

You can certainly voice your opinion, but to give it credibility, you need to get your facts straight. Husky posted the incorrect statement that people want to replace the individual tourney as the premiere event. Not true. How is having a dual format contribute a minority of total points making the event that contributes the majority not premiere? The notion is logically incoherent.

 

To be clear, I don't have a firm view as to how exactly scoring should work or whether scoring should be combined. I haven't thought the exact details through enough. I'm just pointing out that nobody is suggesting the individual tourney be shtcanned or made second-tier. The suggestion, which I endorse conceptually, is that there be a competition to determine the best dual team since that's a format anyone can understand and encourages fan participation through the format in which the majority of college wrestling is done in the first place.

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One of the factors that led to poor attendance was the ticket cost. I live in Columbus, kids had off from school and we were going until I looked at ticket prices. Adult $20 children $15 one session, so $50 for my twins and I to go an see Monday session. Adult $10, kids $8 and you would have seen a LOT more people there.

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"JRob "77 coaches said they would attend National Duals. What's their excuse?"

 

Yet 77 teams would not be invited to the NCAA National Duals.

 

16/24 would.

 

That leaves a minimum of 53 teams without an opportunity to carry over points to the hybrid NCAA Championship tournament.

 

It's obvious that 77 teams are not represented at the NCAA championships. But it is certainly more than 16 or 24 teams. And when wrestling starts on that Thursday morning, whether a team has 1 wrestler competing or all 10, they all start with ZERO points.

 

Are there any other NCAA Championship events, in any of the 3 Divisions, that have a team start the Championship event with points on the board prior to the event beginning?

 

On a seperate note, Tom Ryan, another advocate for the change, had this event in his home arena (I've been to St. John's Arena for a Penn State/OSU dual (2008) and there were thousands more people there. And it was just a regular Big 10 dual between OSU and a Troy Sunderland Penn State teams with 2 returning AAs (Strayer and Davis). Nothing special.

 

For this most recent NWCA Duals, the #1 and #4 teams in the country wrestled in the event - along with other ranked teams, in a wrestling rich state on a Holiday, yet people still didn't show up. Why couldn't Ryan promote it better?

 

Cornell didn't travel well, either.

 

If Iowa and/or Penn State wrestle there, instead of at sold out events in PA, would the crowds have been better? If so, why are they tasked with carrying the larger share of costs/revenue and having to travel when other schools and their fans/students don't show up - including the host?

 

And I see cost being mentioned. If this were a NCAA Championship event, the costs would likely be even more.

 

If one lives anywhere close to the event and didn't show, yet have anything to say against those not in favor of the change, then you have a hollow argument.

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so if the fans DID watch this event on tv/online then you know that there is interest in the event. you can also figure out what they will DO at a different event. midlands:NCAA tournament::National Duals:new proposal.

 

the small crowds at the national duals will get bigger when you add the top teams with full strength line ups wrestling with the team championship at stake. just like small crowds at the midlands or scuffle doesn't mean that fans won't show up to watch the NCAA tournament.

 

home gyms for the duals are nice but sometimes logistics requires a compromise. i'd rather have the duals on tv with small crowds than no duals and no tv and no crowds.

What you mean is when Iowa comes back then they will add another 2-3000 Iowa fans because they are the fans that travel and support their team.

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tbar keeps claiming that no coaches want this when the majority do

 

 

 

I never said no coaches wanted the new proposal, so you can stop bull$#itting that I did.

 

What I said was that there is significant opposition to the proposal, which is true.

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so if the fans DID watch this event on tv/online then you know that there is interest in the event. you can also figure out what they will DO at a different event. midlands:NCAA tournament::National Duals:new proposal.

 

the small crowds at the national duals will get bigger when you add the top teams with full strength line ups wrestling with the team championship at stake. just like small crowds at the midlands or scuffle doesn't mean that fans won't show up to watch the NCAA tournament.

 

home gyms for the duals are nice but sometimes logistics requires a compromise. i'd rather have the duals on tv with small crowds than no duals and no tv and no crowds.

What you mean is when Iowa comes back then they will add another 2-3000 Iowa fans because they are the fans that travel and support their team.

 

nah, my point doesn't have much to do with Iowa's fans and their willingness to travel. my point is a mid season tournament, whether dual or individual based, with no team championship on the line, at a neutral site, is going to have a hard time drawing big attendance numbers.

 

i also don't think attendance numbers are all that important. if not one seat is filled for the sochi olympics, the IOC still gets NBC's $775 million.

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You can certainly voice your opinion, but to give it credibility, you need to get your facts straight.

 

Nothing that I wrote is not true.

 

 

How is having a dual format contribute a minority of total points making the event that contributes the majority not premiere?

 

Changing The Tournament as it currently exists in favor of this proposal is diminishing The Tournament. The Tournament already works incredibly well, while the NWCA's does not work well in any meaningful way. You don't try to fix what is broken by diminishing what is not.

 

Koll and J Rob would be well advised to think of better ways to promote the sport of college wrestling, like enforcing stalling for starters. And not subjectively, but across the board. Maybe have some duals in places that need it, like small schools.

 

The proposal does nothing for small schools, it hurts them if anything.

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I agree with some of what TBAR says. It seems fans have decided without any proof that national duals is going to revive a sport with a small fan base. That is great. I like the idea of national duals just fine and certainly will watch. What I dislike is the point carryover. That is an awful idea.

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Changing The Tournament as it currently exists in favor of this proposal is diminishing The Tournament

this isn't true.

 

The Tournament already works incredibly well, while the NWCA's does not work well in any meaningful way.

this also isn't true.

 

You don't try to fix what is broken by diminishing what is not.

this is true. im glad no on is trying to diminish the part of the NCAA tournament that everyone loves and is working great.

 

Koll and J Rob would be well advised to think of better ways to promote the sport of college wrestling, like enforcing stalling for starters. And not subjectively, but across the board.

have fun trying to enforce stalling rules without involving subjectivity!

 

Maybe have some duals in places that need it, like small schools.

maybe have small schools participate in a national duals tournament with the big schools?

 

The proposal does nothing for small schools, it hurts them if anything.

this definitely isn't true.

 

some truthiness to it all tho, so there's that.

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You can certainly voice your opinion, but to give it credibility, you need to get your facts straight.

 

Nothing that I wrote is not true.

 

 

I responded to Husky, not you, stating that nobody wants to get rid of the individual tournament or make it second-class. You then said, "that was two years ago."

 

No, that's NOW. As I've said a dozen times already on various threads, JRob does not want the individual tournament. He also is not suggesting that it should not be a premiere event. Not two years ago. NOW.

 

Changing The Tournament as it currently exists in favor of this proposal is diminishing The Tournament. The Tournament already works incredibly well, while the NWCA's does not work well in any meaningful way. You don't try to fix what is broken by diminishing what is not.

 

Right, because nothing in college wrestling is broken. It's just dying all by itself. Get a clue.

 

The duals do not work well in ANY meaningful way? I just saw some of the best wrestling of this entire season on TV, live, and not just the finals but also the semis, with Flo covering every dual that wasn't on TV. More fans than ever before saw the duals. This entire forum's front page is replete with commentary about the duals.

 

But you're right. There was ZERO benefit from having the duals. The teams who did show up should've just given JRob the middle finger and stayed at home. Screw TV coverage, screw streaming INternet coverage, screw duals. Not worthwhile at all because TBar1977 says that the duals don't work well in ANY meaningful way.

 

Why having more wrestling for fans to watch and for new fans to be exposed to is a bad thing is absolutely beyond me. I don't get it. There's still the tourney in March. That's still when the AAs will be selected. All the ESPN coverage will still be there. JRob will still bring his Gophers and they'll still wrestle as tough as they can because they still want to get as many AAs as possible. I don't see this grand debasement of the individual tourney at all whatsoever.

 

The proposal does nothing for small schools, it hurts them if anything.

 

You're right. It hurts small schools because additional opportunities to compete at a national level and gain more exposure to the media and ultimately to fans are all terrible things. I'm sure the guys at schools like North Dakota State who might wrestle once in front of a TV audience all year were feeling really hurt for the exposure. How terrible.

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I wish they(BTN) would have bounced around a little bit to the other matches going on. At one point during the semifinal round, a defending National Champion(Maple) was in an overtime match with Villalonga-Cornell. Put them on TV! I was trying to watch it in the background of the MN/Ohio St. match. I don't like split screen TV but use some common sense and show the exciting stuff that's happening in the arena.

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LungOne, I understand your displeasure but with it being the BTN it doesn't surprise me. The other dual was being shown on Flo so due to broadcasting aggreements the BTN may have been limited in what they could have shown even if they wanted to.

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I wish they(BTN) would have bounced around a little bit to the other matches going on. At one point during the semifinal round, a defending National Champion(Maple) was in an overtime match with Villalonga-Cornell. Put them on TV! I was trying to watch it in the background of the MN/Ohio St. match. I don't like split screen TV but use some common sense and show the exciting stuff that's happening in the arena.

 

ihate it when they bounce around stick with one dual I don't want to feel like someone is flipping through the channels on me

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I wish they(BTN) would have bounced around a little bit to the other matches going on. At one point during the semifinal round, a defending National Champion(Maple) was in an overtime match with Villalonga-Cornell. Put them on TV! I was trying to watch it in the background of the MN/Ohio St. match. I don't like split screen TV but use some common sense and show the exciting stuff that's happening in the arena.

 

The Big Ten Network isn't going to show you a dual between an EIWA team and a Big 12 team while there is a dual involving two Big Ten teams going on that they can cover. They aren't there to promote other conferences teams. They are going to promote the Big Ten, right or wrong.

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I wish they(BTN) would have bounced around a little bit to the other matches going on. At one point during the semifinal round, a defending National Champion(Maple) was in an overtime match with Villalonga-Cornell. Put them on TV! I was trying to watch it in the background of the MN/Ohio St. match. I don't like split screen TV but use some common sense and show the exciting stuff that's happening in the arena.

 

The Big Ten Network isn't going to show you a dual between an EIWA team and a Big 12 team while there is a dual involving two Big Ten teams going on that they can cover. They aren't there to promote other conferences teams. They are going to promote the Big Ten, right or wrong.

 

I love the idea the BTN televises wrestling. I also get the need to promote Big-10 period. However per the NWCA this vehicle is a wrestling promotion tool - part of the television agreement should be to show a high interest match that possibly does not feature a big-10 school.

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Minnesota fans showed up and packed their own gym for their on campus Dual meet with Penn State. They sold the place out.

 

Minnesota fans wouldn't go anywhere near Columbus, Ohio this past weekend for the NWCA Duals.

 

J Rob should watch what his own fan base is DOING. Forget what they say, watch what they actually DO.

 

Quite the hubris to call out J. You ain't got the whiskers or horsepower, greenhorn.

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Was this really worth the time it took you to think up and make this thread? Stop being so insecure.

 

I wouldn't have posted it if I did not believe I was making a valid point.

 

TBar in your 1200+ posts you haven't made a valid point yet, no sure why you would think you would make one now.

Sorry buddy you left yourself wide open on that post

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Minnesota fans showed up and packed their own gym for their on campus Dual meet with Penn State. They sold the place out.

 

Minnesota fans wouldn't go anywhere near Columbus, Ohio this past weekend for the NWCA Duals.

 

J Rob should watch what his own fan base is DOING. Forget what they say, watch what they actually DO.

 

Quite the hubris to call out J. You ain't got the whiskers or horsepower, greenhorn.

 

pm-01, you sound as if J Rob is infallible and above questioning. I was taught that no one is above being questioned. This would include Cael Sanderson, J Rob, or anyone else. A confident person wouldn't always be trying to silence debate, they'd allow their point of view to stand up on its own merits.

 

Getting back to J Rob, he has made some pretty pointed comments towards other coaches regarding NWCA participation and how these other coaches should conduct themselves. But this goes back even further, and it extends to other issues.

 

And he has a history of After Penn State's 18-18 tie with Minnesota on Feb. 13, 2011 J Rob questioned the integrity of Penn State's coaching staff for allowing Frank Molinaro at 149 to take a late injury timeout when, according to Robinson, Molinaro wasn't really hurt. Robinson did not just imply that Molinaro was faking it, he outright said it. He then stated that the Penn State staff knew this.

 

 

Minnesota wrestling coach J Robinson received a public reprimand by Big Ten officials for his comments.

 

The Big 10 said Robinson violated the Big Ten Sportslike Conduct Agreement in his post-match comments.

 

Robinson accused Molinaro of faking an injury to get a timeout in a 6-5 win at 149 pounds. Robinson was quoted as saying:

 

"They're good. They wrestle hard. They came to compete. I was disappointed in the coaching staff. They let one of their kids, Molinaro, take a timeout when he wasn't hurt. It's not O.K. to break the rules. The kid wasn't hurt. He knows he wasn't hurt and the coaches know he wasn't hurt and they allowed it anyway. It's outside the integrity of the sport. He just got tired. He wasn't hurt. He just wound his clock, took a timeout and the coaches just went along with it instead of keeping him out there and letting him deal with it."

 

But it does not end there. After the Public Reprimand from the Big 10, among other things Robinson had this to say:

 

"I don't want to get into a debate about it," Robinson told The Star Tribune out of Minnesota, "but I am disappointed that the Big Ten is more concerned with what I said than addressing what happened. If what I said was valid, I am not the problem. Maybe they should look elsewhere."

 

So basically, J Rob thinks it is his way or the highway. That attitude, particularly towards other coaches, is not helpful to the growth of the sport.

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Was this really worth the time it took you to think up and make this thread? Stop being so insecure.

 

I wouldn't have posted it if I did not believe I was making a valid point.

 

TBar in your 1200+ posts you haven't made a valid point yet, no sure why you would think you would make one now.

Sorry buddy you left yourself wide open on that post

 

 

Amen.

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"pm-01, you sound as if J Rob is infallible and above questioning. I was taught that no one is above being questioned. This would include Cael Sanderson, J Rob, or anyone else. A confident person wouldn't always be trying to silence debate, they'd allow their point of view to stand up on its own merits." -TBar

 

Tbar you started by saying that no one is above questioning(even Cael) when defending your opinion and that no one should silence it.

 

Then you went on to basically say how dare J rob question the integrity of Cael and his coaching staff. The Big Ten attempted to silence him by a reprimand and he defended himself again.

 

So you used the same line of thinking to defend yourself and to vilify J Rob

 

Seems contradictory......

 

Also it should be noted that a rule change regarding injury timeouts occurred and a lot of people point it back to J Rob's questioning of Molinaro as one of the reasons the ball got rolling for that rule change. A rule change that I think has improved the product on the mat.

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