national duals - need help remembering the initial issue

[nom 1,209]

I'm pretty confused at this point. Need some assistance.

 

Several years ago, we were finding that not all invited teams were choosing to attend national duals. Why?

 

What if all the top teams made rock solid commitments to attend. Would all this controversy end? Could we stick with the current format?

 

I think I'm in the camp of current format, the very best teams committing to go. But I think I'm missing something. Need the history here.

 

Thanks in advance.

[scribe 1,845]

Basically, coaches have long opted in and out of National Duals since forever. Remember when ND was competing with Virgina Duals for top teams? Seems like John Smith was one of the more not-too-distant-past coaches to opt out of National Duals just as it had traction of become THE dual event of the year. Lehigh is another example of a strong team to opt out National Duals, citing 'too grueling' in their schedule. Tom Brands was bouncing in and out, as I recall. And now obviously Cael is determinedly against anyone fiddling with his schedule, whether it's good for wrestling or his team, or not.

[redblades 322]

Seems like John Smith was one of the more not-too-distant-past coaches to opt out of National Duals just as it had traction of become THE dual event of the year.

 

I'm pretty sure the objections by Smith were 1) he didn't like having it in Iowa every year, and 2) it didn't matter, since there wasn't a REAL championship at stake. :roll:

[HurricaneWrestling 1,123]

Some interesting sub-plots concerning the National Duals arose in the 2010-11 season.

The Waterloo-Cedar Falls Courier reported that Koll was upset with Brands over two issues:

 

1) Koll felt that it was the Hawkeyes' obligation to be present at the National Duals since it

was just 75 miles from Iowa City.

 

2) Koll pointed out that Iowa has beaten Cornell every time they had wrestled. He added that;

"I think this year we have a good shot at beating them. I would've liked the shot to return the favor."

 

That year was regarded as Cornell's best shot to win a national title. They had their best finish the previous year when they were 2nd to Iowa at NCAA's. The Big Red was the unanimous # 1 pick in the preseason and remained the unanimous # 1 ranked team all year going into the 2011 NCAA tourney. Penn State, that year's champion, was ranked anywhere from 2nd - 4th depending on the poll, with most having them # 3.

 

Cornell defeated Ohio State 27-6, Missouri 18-15, Minnesota 20-16, and Virginia Tech 25-10 to win their first National Duals title. However, less than 2 weeks later they were upset by then # 14 ranked Lehigh and ended up finishing 13-1 for the year.

.

[BRGuy 37]

john smith had said he went to Virginia duals and not national duals bc being in iowa was an unfair advantage for iowa for an event that was suppose to be neutral

 

cael had said in his yearly years that he wanted his guys to peak for nationals and a few tough matches in the weeks before hand could hurt his teams performance so if he didn't have to go he wouldn't go

 

all of the coaches committed to the national duals before the vote which prompted some coaches to decide to vote against the proposal for the ncaa to take over the duals since they said we would have a duals with all the best teams in it now anyways but then after the vote cael said he wouldn't take his team like he said he would and then brands and smith said that if penn state wasn't there then there wasn't a point in them going

 

smith has since said he doesn't like neutral site duals but wants to have the ncaa take over the duals

[nom 1,209]

OK, so before all this stuff about point carryover, there were coaches that didn't like a true national duals title for other reasons. So even if this point carryover thing goes away, I'm afraid coaches will still not support it.

 

Sad sad sad for the sport. Parochial people. Makes me think that some coaches have parochial interests and are embarrassed to admit as much if they don't have to. Thus, they will point at other issues as a cloak. Can't tell for sure but it wouldn't be the first time it happened in the world.

 

I do remember the 2011 season -- so wish Cornell could have won a true national duals title with all the best teams represented. Sad as a fan that Cornell didn't have a chance to do that.

[IronChef 1,134]

I'm getting tired of people making it sound like coaches making decisions that are best for their team is somehow bad for the sport as a whole. It's not sad when Brands, Smith, or Cael make decisions primarily for the benefit of their own teams. Also, Koll is just as self-interested as any of them; he is just a better salesman.

[BRGuy 37]

koll and jrob are not any better salesmen than brands smith or cael even though smith is actually on the side that supports a dual championship despite not going to the nwca duals

 

the difference is what they are selling and the pro duals side has an easier job selling than the people who say wrestling shouldn't change

[IvyDoc 0]

I like the idea of two NCAA awards: a national duals champion and an NCAA tournament champion. This would allow for an exciting dual meet tournament that could be televised and preserve the history of the current tournament. Instead of trying to merge both tournaments, I think the wrestling community should pressure the NCAA into allowing two types of championships.

[Flying-Tiger 617]

Ivy, just about everyone would be for that, but there is no way the NCAA would go for it. Too many gender equity issues for more then one official championship.

[IvyDoc 0]

I find that beyond frustrating.

 

Creating an additional NCAA recognized championship shouldn't alter funding in any significant way and shouldn't detract from any other sport. If there needs to be more gender parity, can wrestling team up with a women's sport and advocate they too get an additional "ncaa championship".

 

Again, I think the wrestling community should focus on fighting an arbitrary barrier.

[BDB50 11]

They say the NCAA win't award t seperate national championships one for duals and for individuals. Doesn't it award national championships for both indoor and outdoor track?? And if they qualify it as being two seperate semester based sports couldn't wrestling run their sport in a similar fashion??

[Pinnum 846]

They say the NCAA win't award t seperate national championships one for duals and for individuals. Doesn't it award national championships for both indoor and outdoor track?? And if they qualify it as being two seperate semester based sports couldn't wrestling run their sport in a similar fashion??

 

No. Indoor track and outdoor track are two different sports. Any single male athlete that runs cross country, indoor track, and outdoor track counts as three male athletes for a school. Additionally, every (team) championship opportunity counts as a sport. There have been a lot of schools that have cut indoor track for men or men's track all together due to their athletes counting so many times.

 

So if we had a dual and a tournament team champion we would have every wrestler counting as two athletes and every school having an additional male sport added to the school. This would create HUGE issues and would see a ton of teams dropped over night.

 

The only solutions are to only have a tournament champion, only have a dual champion (though we can still have an individual tournament, like we always have, to determine All-Americans), or to have a hybrid system that gives points for both of the legs (dual and individual) for the team race.

[BDB50 11]

Then by all means keep the current system of determining wrestling national champion per NCAA and if there is to be a dual championship tournament let that stand as any other in season tournament! :idea:

[RichB 227]

Creating an additional NCAA recognized championship shouldn't alter funding in any significant way and shouldn't detract from any other sport. If there needs to be more gender parity, can wrestling team up with a women's sport and advocate they too get an additional "ncaa championship".

 

There needs to be an NCAA women's wrestling championship. And the best way to get to a women's NCAA wrestling championship it to B1G women's wrestling championship. Probably the majority of the 14 schools already have 2-3 dozen young ladies on campus who wrestled in HS, of JH, or at least a couple years of elementary.

 

I have talked to so many HS girls who have both a father and brother or two who wrestled, who would have liked to wrestle, just not against guys.

[AZCO 7]

I think the best NCAA dual meet scenario would be:

 

1. Random draw which major ranking system will be used (flo, coach's poll, awn, intermat, etc.) every year so it always changes

2. Seed the top 8 in to bracket

3. Host it as a regular season tournament in like December or January. I think most coaches wouldn't mind getting 3-5 tough duals at that time of the season.

4. The winners are the ncaa dual team champions

5. The team that wins the national duals hosts them the next season

 

I think that any of the teams in the top 8 would be able to draw a crowd and have a good event at their arena. Put in a stage and have it as a night dual. It would be a cool event many team's home sites

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

There needs to be an NCAA women's wrestling championship. And the best way to get to a women's NCAA wrestling championship it to B1G women's wrestling championship. Probably the majority of the 14 schools already have 2-3 dozen young ladies on campus who wrestled in HS, of JH, or at least a couple years of elementary.

 

I have talked to so many HS girls who have both a father and brother or two who wrestled, who would have liked to wrestle, just not against guys.

 

that would be great. college wrestling needs to step up and do more to promote women's wrestling. it can only help the sport. hopefully those in leadership positions dont consider it too big a risk.