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Are Regional Training Centers an unfair advantage?

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43 minutes ago, Bryan said:

This is going to upset some people but I can see the NCAA banning the RTC's on a college campus in the near future.  The RTC's will be required to move to a facility off campus if they continue to operate.  

And this will accomplish nothing except making training harder.  

FRL talked about a proposal to ban college or h.s. athletes from training with Sr. level athletes. If you went the club route I'm not sure that is even legal. 

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5 minutes ago, MDogg said:

I couldn’t be more pro-RTC but I do agree there needs to be some level of reform or oversight. I mean whenever you hear this many D1 coaches say it’s the “Wild West” and there are virtually no rules I think we should take them at their word. In addition to the FRL discussion go read the article on trackwrestling. Top level coaches are on the record saying things to the effect of “we aren’t paying our college age wrestlers through our RTC but the current system results in such a massive loophole it would be really easy to do.” I agree that’s a problem. I also think it’s a bad look when anti-RTC crusaders like John Smith name Daton Fix’s father as his program’s RTC coach (caveat: that assumes it’s a paid position, if not then I don’t see a problem).

If RTC's are paying your current student wrestlers I think everyone would agree that would be a problem. The question is, who is doing that? Give one example. 

You can't blame schools because their GRADUATED athletes are getting paid in the field of their choosing. Jeez Louise, isn't that what colleges are supposed to be in the business of doing!!!

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

And this will accomplish nothing except making training harder.  

FRL talked about a proposal to ban college or h.s. athletes from training with Sr. level athletes. If you went the club route I'm not sure that is even legal. 

It will also cause (or at least greatly encourage) really elite high school freestyle wrestlers to skip NCAA wrestling altogether. If coming out of high school Kyle Snyder had to choose between training with only college-age guys who focus on folk or senior level freestyle wrestlers which do you think he would’ve chosen? We never would’ve seen him in a Buckeye singlet. If that proposal were adopted it’d be disasterous.

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

If RTC's are paying your current student wrestlers I think everyone would agree that would be a problem. The question is, who is doing that? Give one example. 

You can't blame schools because their GRADUATED athletes are getting paid in the field of their choosing. Jeez Louise, isn't that what colleges are supposed to be in the business of doing!!!

On the podcast they spoke of RTCs hiring dads and of one particular case where a prospective recruit wanted something which was a total recruiting violation and the school declined but the recruit went to a different school and got it through the RTC.  Pyles did not want to talk about the specifics, but that is pretty abnormal that the media would refuse to cover it.  Could you imagine ESPN not talking about such a situation with a football or basketball program?  Are recruiting violations and skirting the rules so commonplace with RTCs that they fear they will be blackballed and access cut off if they report on it?

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8 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I've only heard about 2 possibilities. 1. Keeping them off-campus. 2. Restricting PSAs (HS kids).

 

 

It would be sad if they banned HS kids. Many of those kids who are good enough to wrestle at an RTC/OTC improve dramatically and its obvious they are better prepared for International competition. 

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7 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

On the podcast they spoke of RTCs hiring dads and of one particular case where a prospective recruit wanted something which was a total recruiting violation and the school declined but the recruit went to a different school and got it through the RTC.  Pyles did not want to talk about the specifics, but that is pretty abnormal that the media would refuse to cover it.  Could you imagine ESPN not talking about such a situation with a football or basketball program?  Are recruiting violations and skirting the rules so commonplace with RTCs that they fear they will be blackballed and access cut off if they report on it?

I think something like that situation would be pretty easy to ferret out if the NCAA really wanted to get to the bottom of it, but there are plenty of situations/cases in football and basketball that are even easier to ferret out that never even get looked into by the NCAA. Anyone who thinks the football and basketball studs aren't getting girls, cash, cars ...etc. is just naive. I think the NCAA just doesn't want the head ache. 

EDIT: Btw, not that you are saying this, but there was no greater parity in NCAA wrestling before RTCs. The idea of parity is a fantasy. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

If RTC's are paying your current student wrestlers I think everyone would agree that would be a problem. The question is, who is doing that? Give one example. 

You can't blame schools because their GRADUATED athletes are getting paid in the field of their choosing. Jeez Louise, isn't that what colleges are supposed to be in the business of doing!!!

Where did I say it was happening? I clearly said that the coaches themselves are saying it would be very easy to do it in the current system...and that’s a problem. So you think we should just ignore the growing chorus of college coaches who have existing RTC’s who are sounding the alarm? Continue with what essentially amounts to an honor system and have faith none of these ultra competitive head coaches will break any rules to land a superstar recruit?

Again, I’m VERY pro-RTC but you once again you’re just plain wrong. Colleges are not in the business of actually paying their graduates themselves. They’re in the business of preparing them to enter the world with skills that some other person, company, organization, team, etc will want to pay them for. 

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29 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

John Smith has dedicated his life to growing the sport of wrestling on every level. I think his opposition to some aspects of the current setup are a lot more nuanced than the FLO guys put out there. College wrestling is governed by the NCAA but the RTC system isn't. That means there are tons of opportunities for cheating. To me that is the rub a lot of schools have. Not fundraising but the chances it gives programs to skirt NCAA rules on scholarship allotments. I think if the NCAA was clear on the RTCs a lot of the criticism would die down. Right now they live in a grey area and if the NCAA started really poking around a lot of them probably wouldn't hold up to much scrutiny. The RTC system as it is currently set up would never fly in a sport the NCAA paid any attention to. 

I disagree.  The money issue gets bandied about because it catches people's attention, not because it's the actual crux of the matter.  The thing that people have a real problem with is the perception of improper contact with PSA's, whether that be from an NCAA coach directly affiliated with a university, RTC coach indirectly affiliated, or current student athlete.  That's why the proposal to ban college coaches from participating in age group coaching is rolled into this as well.  

Spare me with the "grow the sport" garbage.  Smith and others aren't acting altruistically, and they're not looking out for the wrestlers.  They're looking out for their own teams' success, and their salaries.  

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1 minute ago, MDogg said:

Where did I say it was happening? I clearly said that the coaches themselves are saying it would be very easy to do it in the current system...and that’s a problem. So you think we should just ignore the growing chorus of college coaches who have existing RTC’s who are sounding the alarm? Continue with what essentially amounts to an honor system and have faith none of these ultra competitive head coaches will break any rules to land a superstar recruit?

Again, I’m VERY pro-RTC but you once again you’re just plain wrong. Colleges are not in the business of actually paying their graduates themselves. They’re in the business of preparing them to enter the world with skills that some other person, company, organization, team, etc will want to pay them for. 

We shouldn't ignore them, we should challenge them to give examples. Saying it would be easy to funnel money isn't the same thing as saying "School X or Coach Y is funneling money". Guess what, it would be easy in the current system for boosters to funnel money. What's to stop them? A booster or an RTC paying current athletes is a violation either way. How are you going to get rid of boosters? They are fans, no? 

Also, moving RTC's off campus or going to a club system isn't going to stop dishonest people from breaking the rules. Stop making innuendo and start making real claims, then have the NCAA go after the rule breakers. Otherwise you are just throwing the baby out with the bath water and hurting the sport, most likely because you are less competitive than you once were and the other guy is just better.  

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I think something like that situation would be pretty easy to ferret out if the NCAA really wanted to get to the bottom of it, but there are plenty of situations/cases in football and basketball that are even easier to ferret out that never even get looked into by the NCAA. Anyone who thinks the football and basketball studs aren't getting girls, cash, cars ...etc. is just naive. I think the NCAA just doesn't want the head ache. 

If they have the rule then it is their duty to ferret it out.  Programs/RTCs that do such things would have an unfair advantage over ones that do not.  Some schools will play by the NCAA rules others won't and maybe the RTC system allows the ones that don't with an easy avenue to do so.  If media is afraid to report on an issue because it would limit their ability to report on the sport than the practice is a problem.

There are 9.9 scholarships, but maybe some school with an RTC and that's out of scholarships $$ will say something like hey we can't give you a scholarship but the RTC can hire your dad as a coach or we can't give you a scholarship but we have this great RTC with a bunch of funding where you can compete after you graduate with a student loan forgiveness program.  

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6 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

If they have the rule then it is their duty to ferret it out.  Programs/RTCs that do such things would have an unfair advantage over ones that do not.  Some schools will play by the NCAA rules others won't and maybe the RTC system allows the ones that don't with an easy avenue to do so.  If media is afraid to report on an issue because it would limit their ability to report on the sport than the practice is a problem.

There are 9.9 scholarships, but maybe some school with an RTC and that's out of scholarships $$ will say something like hey we can't give you a scholarship but the RTC can hire your dad as a coach or we can't give you a scholarship but we have this great RTC with a bunch of funding where you can compete after you graduate with a student loan forgiveness program.  

I will give the coaches who are making the innuendo the road map to force the NCAA to investigate. This assumes their innuendo would actually amount to something. Write a Letter to the Editor and send it out to ESPN. Have all of the coaches who agree with it sign onto it. Lay out their specific claims of who is doing what. ESPN will run with it and the NCAA will be forced to respond and look into it. 

Other than that, I will consider their innuendo just that. Its sour grapes. 

Name names or just pipe down already. 

Edited by TBar1977

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15 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

We shouldn't ignore them, we should challenge them to give examples. Saying it would be easy to funnel money isn't the same thing as saying "School X or Coach Y is funneling money". Guess what, it would be easy in the current system for boosters to funnel money. What's to stop them? A booster or an RTC paying current athletes is a violation either way. How are you going to get rid of boosters? They are fans, no? 

Also, moving RTC's off campus or going to a club system isn't going to stop dishonest people from breaking the rules. Stop making innuendo and start making real claims, then have the NCAA go after the rule breakers. Otherwise you are just throwing the baby out with the bath water and hurting the sport, most likely because you are less competitive than you once were and the other guy is just better.  

You just don’t understand my point, and I think it’s because you’re choosing not to. I cited the POTENTIAL for it to happen, I did not say it’s happening. If you worked at a plant and someone pointed out a design flaw that could result in the whole thing blowing up, would you respond “until you give me a list of plants that have blown up for that reason there’s nothing to talk about.” 

There’s a chorus of coaches sounding the alarm over how big of a loophole the current system creates. But you clearly know more about the intricacies of this system and how it’s being used in the recruiting process. 

I’m not at all saying this is grounds to drastically change the current RTC system that I think is working so well. I’m talking about changes at the margins and some level of oversight. Whenever you have a group of coaches who already have RTC’s saying “please help because we’re collectively getting out of control” I think we should listen. 

And I actually have 2 specific examples of not necessarily outright cheating but what I would call very shady things that happened around the recruitment of superstar kids. I’m not naming specific names here because it’ll take all of 30 seconds for the moderator to erase the post and lock the thread. Plus I’m simply going on what I’ve been told and don’t want to tarnish a kid or families name without being 100% certain. 

FRL alluded to a recruit who asked for something from a school that was clearly a recruiting violation. That school said no, so he went to another school which gave it to him through their RTC. The only reason those guys would even mention something that potentially salacious on FRL is because that’s become a pretty widely known story. The school who said no and lost out on the kid is furious (and not all that quiet) about what went down. Flo also named 2 star recruits fathers who were hired as RTC coaches after their sons either committed or enrolled. I do not think that’s necessarily  cheating but I also don’t think that should be allowed going forward. 

 

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

Yes, of course the programs with the most resources and success have an advantage but at least in football, basketball and gymnastics at least those schools don't control the funding for competition at the next level of competition too.  Brian Smith is right that running an RTC is a lot of work.  Imagine if Urban Meyer not only had to coach the Buckeyes, but also had to operate the Cleveland Browns so that he could attract the best recruits and then have a place for them to train after they graduate.  If it gets to the point where to run a wrestling program at a top University requires you have to have an RTC, a program that ostensibly has nothing to do with the university, are these two programs not too intermingled?  

Supposing Sanderson retires and Penn State begins to look for a new head coach.  Will they not also in effect be looking for the next coach/administrator of the NLWC?  Will prospective coaches be asked about it?  The NLWC has assets of over $5 million.  

Yup and without any additional pay. Seriously how is this fair to the coaches?They can’t get additional compensation because it’s not affiliated with their school.  

Also let’s be careful giving the RTCs so much credit for our freestyle development. Honestly the internet and sites like YouTube and flo have probably played a greater roll. Our cadet team just got whooped. Should we blame the RTCs?  

Edited by AnklePicker

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4 minutes ago, MDogg said:

You just don’t understand my point, and I think it’s because you’re choosing not to. I cited the POTENTIAL for it to happen, I did not say it’s happening. If you worked at a plant and someone pointed out a design flaw that could result in the whole thing blowing up, would you respond “until you give me a list of plants that have blown up for that reason there’s nothing to talk about.” 

There’s a chorus of coaches sounding the alarm over how big of a loophole the current system creates. But you clearly know more about the intricacies of this system and how it’s being used in the recruiting process. 

I’m not at all saying this is grounds to drastically change the current RTC system that I think is working so well. I’m talking about changes at the margins and some level of oversight. Whenever you have a group of coaches who already have RTC’s saying “please help because we’re collectively getting out of control” I think we should listen. 

And I actually have 2 specific examples of not necessarily outright cheating but what I would call very shady things that happened around the recruitment of superstar kids. I’m not naming specific names here because it’ll take all of 30 seconds for the moderator to erase the post and lock the thread. Plus I’m simply going on what I’ve been told and don’t want to tarnish a kid or families name without being 100% certain. 

FRL alluded to a recruit who asked for something from a school that was clearly a recruiting violation. That school said no, so he went to another school which gave it to him through their RTC. The only reason those guys would even mention something that potentially salacious on FRL is because that’s become a pretty widely known story. The school who said no and lost out on the kid is furious (and not all that quiet) about what went down. Flo also named 2 star recruits fathers who were hired as RTC coaches after their sons either committed or enrolled. I do not think that’s necessarily  cheating but I also don’t think that should be allowed going forward. 

 

Your first paragraph outlines a terrible analogy. I am not even going to address that because you compared Apple's and oranges.

We already discussed the situation in the last paragraph. If a rule was broken then the NCAA should act on it.

No one, least of all me, condones rule breaking. Nor do I wish to handcuff the NCAA. If people are breaking the rules by all means go get them.

You don't tear down a system based on the potential for cheating when any replacement system will also have the same potential for cheating.

Those coaches should stop whining. Go get the cheaters, but stop whining about the system. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

If RTC's are paying your current student wrestlers I think everyone would agree that would be a problem. The question is, who is doing that? Give one example. 

You can't blame schools because their GRADUATED athletes are getting paid in the field of their choosing. Jeez Louise, isn't that what colleges are supposed to be in the business of doing!!!

You absolutely can blame schools if they are using that pay and loan forgiveness to skirt NCAA scholarship limits. That is against NCAA rules. I'm pro-RTC but I also don't see any real issue with the discussion and them having some more oversight. 

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1 minute ago, osufan12 said:

You absolutely can blame schools if they are using that pay and loan forgiveness to skirt NCAA scholarship limits. That is against NCAA rules. I'm pro-RTC but I also don't see any real issue with the discussion and them having some more oversight. 

The RTCs, not the schools, pay the post grad Sr level athletes. 

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Just now, TBar1977 said:

The RTCs, not the schools, pay the post grad Sr level athletes. 

But that is the point. The line between the school and the RTC is basically non-existent. This setup would never fly in basketball or football. The NCAA would kill it in a heartbeat if Alabama Football set up an RTC for football. Now maybe you can make a good argument that NCAA wrestling should be handled differently than other sports. I would probably agree with you. That being said, until the NCAA actually weighs in one way or another you've got to understand why there are a lot of well respected coaches at schools big and small who are apprehensive about the current setup. 

Personally, I'm well past the point where I think John Smith needs to dive head first into having a top-flight RTC in Stillwater. The support is there to make it happen. However, I'm also not the one who has to deal with the fallout if the NCAA ever starts to care about NCAA wrestling violations. 

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13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You don't tear down a system based on the potential for cheating when any replacement system will also have the same potential for cheating.

Why do you keep pretending I’m advocating tearing down the system? Keep the RTC system as it is but with more oversight. The only reason you could possibly equate a modicum or oversight with “tearing down the system” is if you believe there is currently such widespread corruption and cheating that the current system would be brought down if a light were shined on it.

And if that’s what you believe then “either name names or stop whining.”

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

We shouldn't ignore them, we should challenge them to give examples. Saying it would be easy to funnel money isn't the same thing as saying "School X or Coach Y is funneling money". Guess what, it would be easy in the current system for boosters to funnel money. What's to stop them? A booster or an RTC paying current athletes is a violation either way. How are you going to get rid of boosters? They are fans, no? 

Also, moving RTC's off campus or going to a club system isn't going to stop dishonest people from breaking the rules. Stop making innuendo and start making real claims, then have the NCAA go after the rule breakers. Otherwise you are just throwing the baby out with the bath water and hurting the sport, most likely because you are less competitive than you once were and the other guy is just better.  

Carl:  you are the greatest coach of all time.  I can’t believe you can post this much and still oversee the program.

Oh wait, that’s what Cunningham is for.

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12 minutes ago, MDogg said:

Why do you keep pretending I’m advocating tearing down the system? Keep the RTC system as it is but with more oversight. The only reason you could possibly equate a modicum or oversight with “tearing down the system” is if you believe there is currently such widespread corruption and cheating that the current system would be brought down if a light were shined on it.

And if that’s what you believe then “either name names or stop whining.”

I want to be clear, I am not suggesting you personally want to tear it down. There are many fans that do, and I have often seen the NLWC money advantage used as their basis for wanting to tear it down. It just reeks of a sense of not liking it simply because NLWC has raised more money. No one ever cared about NLWC for their first 20 or so odd years. Then Cael arrived and a few wealthy donors got excited and all of a sudden people are upset.

More oversight to me means for the NCAA to just do their job. Go get the rule breakers. 

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18 minutes ago, Sstern said:

Carl:  you are the greatest coach of all time.  I can’t believe you can post this much and still oversee the program.

Oh wait, that’s what Cunningham is for.

You are such crybabies. Is this all you ever do?

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26 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I want to be clear, I am not suggesting you personally want to tear it down. There are many fans that do, and I have often seen the NLWC money advantage used as their basis for wanting to tear it down. It just reeks of a sense of not liking it simply because NLWC has raised more money. No one ever cared about NLWC for their first 20 or so odd years. Then Cael arrived and a few wealthy donors got excited and all of a sudden people are upset.

More oversight to me means for the NCAA to just do their job. Go get the rule breakers. 

Fair enough. I’m neither a PSU or tOSU hater or fan (fan of another middling B1G team), but I personally don’t see how the anti-RTC crowd could be seen as being more anti-PSU than anti-tOSU. If RTC’s and all their money were totally extricated from college wrestling, I would see that hurting tOSU more than PSU. 

From my perspective, it seems like tOSU has pretty masterfully used the RTC model and the money it helps being in to surge up the ranks of college wrestling. Hell, Kyle Snyder openly says tOSU’s top tier RTC was THE reason he choose tOSU. Would they have been able to fund the incredible new facilities they just opened without the way their RTC has elevated their program status and excited their boosters/donors? Maybe, maybe not...but nobody can say it wasn’t an enormous help. NLWC may have more money but in my opinion tOSU has benefitted even more from their RTC. That’s a compliment to how effective they’ve been with their resources, not an insinuation that they’re done anything wrong. Had RTC’s never existed I personally think PSU would still be the 800 pound gorilla of NCAA wrestling. I can’t say I think tOSU would be in its same top tier position if RTC’s never existed. 

Before buckeye fans accuse me of slighting the program...let me clarify that I think the way tOSU has leveraged its RTC is a prime example of all the extremely good things RTC’s are doing for all levels of wrestling. Not a suggestion of anything improper. 

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7 minutes ago, ugarte said:

if hiring dads as coaches to recruit the kids is wrong you probably think college basketball is corrupt too

Damn right I do. Find me 10 knowledgeable people who don’t think college basketball is extremely corrupt.

And the NCAA has been aggressively implementing new rules to prevent this. It recently passed a rule effectively preventing anybody deemed close with a recruit from being hired by the school he signs with for 2 years. More aimed to stop colleges from hiring football recruits HS coaches than wrestlers dads but same principal.

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