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jammen

Biggest choke job

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I agree with mvattivo. I am a PSU fan and am getting irritated with the PSU bashing just for the sake of bashing and also get tired of some PSU fans comments.

I also tend to not like posts like this one where the goal is to point out the most negative subject matter. There seems to be very little appreciation of the sport. The appreciation on this forum is not based on the wrestling competition and watching mastery of the sport. It seems like most of the posts are just about which team wins instead of the matches. As a PSU fan I can still appreciate guys like Ian Miller as an example.

How are you interpreting choke ? Is it a kid like McD who had a devastating tournament, mostly due to injury ? Did Nickerson choke ? Wasn't Lewens very sick one year at NCAA's ?

Also - Be careful not to lump all fans from a team in the same boat. The views expressed on this forum do not reflect the views of all PSU fans. The consensus on the forum a few years ago made Iowa fans out to be as bad as some say PSU fans are now. The hotel I stayed at for nationals a few years ago was filled with Iowa fans. They were great. I had a great time with them.

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RETARD FIGHTS!!!!

 

That's right TBar. I just said that. Whaddya gonna do about it? Dig it up 3 years down the road and use it against me when I run for political office?

 

Hey, I'm going to archive posts around here back to 1997.

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I agree with mvattivo. I am a PSU fan and am getting irritated with the PSU bashing just for the sake of bashing and also get tired of some PSU fans comments.

I also tend to not like posts like this one where the goal is to point out the most negative subject matter. There seems to be very little appreciation of the sport. The appreciation on this forum is not based on the wrestling competition and watching mastery of the sport. It seems like most of the posts are just about which team wins instead of the matches. As a PSU fan I can still appreciate guys like Ian Miller as an example.

How are you interpreting choke ? Is it a kid like McD who had a devastating tournament, mostly due to injury ? Did Nickerson choke ? Wasn't Lewens very sick one year at NCAA's ?

Also - Be careful not to lump all fans from a team in the same boat. The views expressed on this forum do not reflect the views of all PSU fans. The consensus on the forum a few years ago made Iowa fans out to be as bad as some say PSU fans are now. The hotel I stayed at for nationals a few years ago was filled with Iowa fans. They were great. I had a great time with them.

 

Yes, this is another troll thread starter. I guess everyone is bored until next weekend. Me, I'm going to the beautiful Stanford campus on Sunday and get my wrestling fix this weekend.

 

I'm turning into a Ban Basketball type of fan. I no longer truck on down to the state tourney; which happens to be next weekend. HS wrestling just doesn't make it for me that much anymore.

 

I'll give Cael credit. He imported two of the best CA wrestlers in the last dozen years or so---Pico notwithstanding.

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How are you interpreting choke ? Is it a kid like McD who had a devastating tournament, mostly due to injury ? Did Nickerson choke ? Wasn't Lewens very sick one year at NCAA's ?

Also - Be careful not to lump all fans from a team in the same boat. The views expressed on this forum do not reflect the views of all PSU fans. The consensus on the forum a few years ago made Iowa fans out to be as bad as some say PSU fans are now. The hotel I stayed at for nationals a few years ago was filled with Iowa fans. They were great. I had a great time with them.

 

I, along with Brands and McD himself believe that he was well enough to make it to the finals that year. Poor wrestling in key situations is what cost him; I don't believe saying that McD's losses were "mostly due to injury" fits the available evidence.

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How are you interpreting choke ? Is it a kid like McD who had a devastating tournament, mostly due to injury ? Did Nickerson choke ? Wasn't Lewens very sick one year at NCAA's ?

Also - Be careful not to lump all fans from a team in the same boat. The views expressed on this forum do not reflect the views of all PSU fans. The consensus on the forum a few years ago made Iowa fans out to be as bad as some say PSU fans are now. The hotel I stayed at for nationals a few years ago was filled with Iowa fans. They were great. I had a great time with them.

 

I, along with Brands and McD himself believe that he was well enough to make it to the finals that year. Poor wrestling in key situations is what cost him; I don't believe saying that McD's losses were "mostly due to injury" fits the available evidence.

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Not to jump on MM any more, but part of wrestling is staying healthy. Good wrestlers smell blood and they took advantage of the situation with Matt last March. There was some great talent at 125. We'll never know how it plays out if he was healthy.

 

I do love his color commentary. His knowledge and insights are great. I'd take him over Gibbons any day of the week!

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Not to jump on MM any more, but part of wrestling is staying healthy. Good wrestlers smell blood and they took advantage of the situation with Matt last March. There was some great talent at 125. We'll never know how it plays out if he was healthy.

 

I do love his color commentary. His knowledge and insights are great. I'd take him over Gibbons any day of the week!

 

Matt McD was able to pick up many quality wins last year while hurt. Several wins over All Americans. He wrestled poorly in a few situations, and that's what cost him. He was physically capable of wrestling better, he just came up short.

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Not to jump on MM any more, but part of wrestling is staying healthy. Good wrestlers smell blood and they took advantage of the situation with Matt last March. There was some great talent at 125. We'll never know how it plays out if he was healthy.

 

I do love his color commentary. His knowledge and insights are great. I'd take him over Gibbons any day of the week!

 

Matt McD was able to pick up many quality wins last year while hurt. Several wins over All Americans. He wrestled poorly in a few situations, and that's what cost him. He was physically capable of wrestling better, he just came up short.

-------

 

Here we go again.

 

Matt McDonough was gamely trying to wrestling with a serious shoulder injury (torn labrum), requiring surgery following the tournament.

 

Darrion Caldwell, conqueror of invincible Metcalf and future Olympic gold medal hopeful, suffered a shoulder injury and went 1-2 upon his eventual return to the ncaa tournament. Following that, he lost to a high school kid (Tsirtsis) in the WTT qualifier tourney. Of course his shoulder injury had nothing to do with any of that drop-off. Everyone else just got better, right?

 

Most anyone who is reasonable recognizes that a serious injury will hamper performance, and would not consider that "choking." I don't believe Nickerson choked. I don't believe Caldwell choked. And McD didn't choke. What they all had were serious injuries.

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Ignoring the trash talk, that is an amazing number of top recruits! How could you not run the table?

----

 

Better tread lightly here, headshuck.

 

There are those who become mighty upset when obvious facts are stated... that PSU pulls in incredibly high recruits.

 

They will say top 10 is no different than top 100. For example, PSU came up short in 2009 because they only got 2 top 100 recruits (David Taylor and Ed Ruth), while Old Dominion had more top 100 (John Nicholson, Justin Levalle, Joey Sheridan).

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Matt McDonough was gamely trying to wrestling with a serious shoulder injury (torn labrum), requiring surgery following the tournament.

 

I never ignored his injury. When did I do so rossel? And yes, McD wrestled tough that year. With his shoulder problems, he was able to secure a 3 seed at ncaas. During the season, he defeated the 2nd, 3rd, and 7th place finishers at the ncaas. He was physically capable of beating them at ncaas too. If you've seen his match with Garret, McD was in a great position to win that match. He let it slip away in the 3rd when he had his choice of position. Unfortunately in OT, he didn't even come close to putting up a proper defense. Garret took him down mere seconds into the sudden death OT period.

 

Darrion Caldwell, conqueror of invincible Metcalf and future Olympic gold medal hopeful, suffered a shoulder injury and went 1-2 upon his eventual return to the ncaa tournament. Following that, he lost to a high school kid (Tsirtsis) in the WTT qualifier tourney.

 

For starters, Brent Metcalf was never invincible. Metcalf had a losing record vs. Caldwell. Caldwell also lost at his return to the Midlands this year, do you still believe that was due to a shoulder injury? I'm not sure you ever answered that question.

 

Of course his shoulder injury had nothing to do with any of that drop-off. Everyone else just got better, right?

 

You have repeatedly mentioned this "everyone getting better" statement when talking about Caldwell and McDonough. Why? When have I ever said that everyone got better or surpassed them? This is a misrepresentation of my position. You act as if that is the only reasonable conclusion to come to. For the record, no, I don't believe "everyone" got better than McDonough. He simply lost a few close matches because of poor technical and tactical wrestling. It happens. Look at Greg Jones.

 

Most anyone who is reasonable recognizes that a serious injury will hamper performance, and would not consider that "choking." I don't believe Nickerson choked. I don't believe Caldwell choked. And McD didn't choke. What they all had were serious injuries.

 

I never said McDonough choked. Yes, most people will acknowledge that a serious injury can/will hamper performance. So do I. When haven't I in my entire history discussing McDonough? I fully acknowledge McDonough's shoulder problems. I also acknowledge that McDonough wrestled poorly, and was physically capable of wrestling better. McDonough and Brands agree.

 

So many here seem to believe that certain wrestlers were perfect before their injuries. Just because you have an injury doesn't mean that every failure can be chalked up to that injury. Many of the tactical/technical flaws a wrestler had before an injury are often times still there after the injury. I don't see why that is so hard to grasp.

 

Btw, is there a particular reason why you only believe Nickerson and DC didn't choke, and know that McDonough didn't? That's what it seems like you were saying to me.

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Ignoring the trash talk, that is an amazing number of top recruits! How could you not run the table?

----

 

Better tread lightly here, headshuck.

 

There are those who become mighty upset when obvious facts are stated... that PSU pulls in incredibly high recruits.

 

They will say top 10 is no different than top 100. For example, PSU came up short in 2009 because they only got 2 top 100 recruits (David Taylor and Ed Ruth), while Old Dominion had more top 100 (John Nicholson, Justin Levalle, Joey Sheridan).

 

Rossel, you wanted to leave the lengthy and entertaining discussion that involved discussing recruiting a little while back, now you're back. As I seem to recall, there were a few posters who brought up very interesting points about recruiting that aren't often talked about. I remember leaving that conversation thinking that it's almost meaningless to discuss who's getting the better recruits because there are so many factors to consider. Also, there was disagreement over "elite" recruiting. Reasonable people can come to the conclusion that PSU doesn't have as big of an advantage in recruiting as is often stated. Reasonable people could even believe that other schools, like Iowa, bring in overall better recruiting classes than PSU.

I don't see a significant difference in the recruiting of the top teams.

 

Also, another factor to consider is the recruiting strategies of the top coaches. If one school intentionally passes over the highest ranked kids, can you really say that they are being out recruited? Would it be fair to imply that they're at a disadvantage if it's by their own choice?

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It would be easier to sleep if you keep other factors in mind.

 

- Megaludis being held to only 1 bonus vs Minnesota's backup.

- Gulibon losing to a wrestler he previously defeated.

- Alton giving up the pin.

- Taylor getting taken down and ridden for much of the first period. Being held to 1 bonus.

- Brown's getting put on his back twice and losing to opponent he's handled in recent meetings.

- Ruth being held to 1 bonus. Steinhaus is tough but Ruth had his cradle locked up.

- Gingrich 2 points from giving up major. Do you think Nelson could have gotten bonus if needed?

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Recruiting is a HUGE part of any "coaching" in any college sport. I belive Dan Gable to the best coach ever in any sport at any level. A huge part of his success was his ability to recruit people with the last names of Banach, Kistler, McIlravy, Heffernan, Goldman, Mena and many, many others. Obviously, he developed that talent. Cael is going down a similar road, in my opinion. You have to be able to both coach and recruit those who will fit in with your program.

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Recruiting is a HUGE part of any "coaching" in any college sport. I belive Dan Gable to the best coach ever in any sport at any level. A huge part of his success was his ability to recruit people with the last names of Banach, Kistler, McIlravy, Heffernan, Goldman, Mena and many, many others. Obviously, he developed that talent. Cael is going down a similar road, in my opinion. You have to be able to both coach and recruit those who will fit in with your program.

 

Exactly, I'm not sure why so many want to draw such a hard distinction between recruiting and coaching. Recruiting is what a coach is supposed to do! If you aren't recruiting well, that is a weakness you have as a coach.

 

Another thing that's funny to me is when fans/members of a top tier program point out how another top tier program, in their opinion, brings in better recruits. If you're an Okey State, PSU, Iowa, Minnesota, etc. aren't you pulling in better recruits than 99% of the other teams out there? Can't all of those programs mention your "advantage" in recruiting? I don't see how that matters.

 

The best coach (and program) is the one who brings in the most ncaa titles. That's the bottom line at the end of the day. That's why Cael is without a doubt the best coach in the ncaa today. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn, etc. Maybe that changes this year. I like Iowa's chances.

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Reasonable people can come to the conclusion that PSU doesn't have as big of an advantage in recruiting as is often stated. Reasonable people could even believe that other schools, like Iowa, bring in overall better recruiting classes than PSU. I don't see a significant difference in the recruiting of the top teams.

 

Is this a satirical response? Assuming it is not then consider that no team in the history of collegiate wrestling has ever amassed the recruiting talent that Penn State puts on the mat this year. Not the Gable teams nor the Smith teams during his run.

 

Minnesota has two top 5 recruits on their entire roster. Iowa has one maybe two. Okie State one top 5.

Penn State starts 8 wrestlers that were top 5 ranked overall , 7 that were top 3. This is incredulous to me and the real purpose of starting the thread. Formerly a team would consider itself lucky to land even one top 5 prospect.

 

The choke job/poor coaching part of it is simply having fun with Penn State fans during this lull.

I'm not entering into the discussion of top recruits that don't pan out or lower ranked guys that become champs because that is a different subject entirely.

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Ignoring the trash talk, that is an amazing number of top recruits! How could you not run the table?

----

 

Better tread lightly here, headshuck.

 

There are those who become mighty upset when obvious facts are stated... that PSU pulls in incredibly high recruits.

 

They will say top 10 is no different than top 100. For example, PSU came up short in 2009 because they only got 2 top 100 recruits (David Taylor and Ed Ruth), while Old Dominion had more top 100 (John Nicholson, Justin Levalle, Joey Sheridan).

 

More "obvious facts":

 

--Iowa has had the higher-ranked recruiting class than PSU for 4 of the last 5 years, including two #1 classes.

--Though PSU has pulled in more guys ranked in the top 10 overall over the last 5 years, Iowa has pulled in more guys ranked in the top 20 overall than PSU for the last 5 years.

--Iowa has pulled in more guys ranked #1/#2 in their weight than has PSU for the last 5 years.

--Despite this, PSU doubled up on Iowa in their dual meet this year.

 

Conclude from this what you wish.

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This forum is getting extremely difficult to read these days.

 

90% of posts are either PSU fans allowing others to rile them up and acting high and mighty OR non-PSU fans doing everything in their power to take away from PSU's accomplishments. Both are equally annoying, and pretend they aren't doing what they are doing.

 

It got old a LONG time ago.

Quick...where's the retweet button?

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I realize this is only data... but nonetheless apologize in advance to those who get upset when someone points out that Cael has been extremely successful in recruiting of HS elites.

 

Class of 2014 - Intermat top ranked HS recruits - all weights

 

1 Snyder to Olympic training center (eventually tOSU)

2 Marstellar PSU orig, changed to Okla St after misunderstanding with Cael

3 Brill Northwestern

4 Nevills PSU

5 Nickal PSU

6 Jordan tOSU

7 Nolf PSU

8 McKenna Stanford

9 Haines PSU orig, changed to tOSU after misunderstanding with Cael

10 Stoll Iowa

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I realize this is only data... but nonetheless apologize in advance to those who get upset when someone points out that Cael has been extremely successful in recruiting of HS elites.

 

Class of 2014 - Intermat top ranked HS recruits - all weights

 

1 Snyder to Olympic training center (eventually tOSU)

2 Marstellar PSU orig, changed to Okla St after misunderstanding with Cael

3 Brill Northwestern

4 Nevills PSU

5 Nickal PSU

6 Jordan tOSU

7 Nolf PSU

8 McKenna Stanford

9 Haines PSU orig, changed to tOSU after misunderstanding with Cael

10 Stoll Iowa

 

Is there a top 100 list? Why do you only mention the recruits that PSU gets? As Bac pointed out, a school like Iowa has outrecruited PSU for 4 out of the last 5 years. Personally, I don't really see a significant difference between Iowa and PSU's recruits. Same thing goes for Okie State and Ohio State.

 

The thing is, a reasonable person without an agenda could say that Iowa has better recruiting classes than PSU. Do you disagree with that?

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