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djd5391

Stallgado

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That ref could not be in a better position to call a defensive fall.

 

I'm being sarcastic, referencing a running joke we had where I showed a photo of Ness' back flat, but a still photo is an awful way to determine if a pin occurred. It is only useful to show that the back was flat for that instant. Anyone who watched the match knows Nico was not pinned there, lol.

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That ref could not be in a better position to call a defensive fall.

 

I'm being sarcastic, referencing a running joke we had where I showed a photo of Ness' back flat, but a still photo is an awful way to determine if a pin occurred. It is only useful to show that the back was flat for that instant. Anyone who watched the match knows Nico was not pinned there, lol.

 

Ahh I see, thanks. Makes more sense now.

 

Though there are those that will use stills like that as evidence of missed pins.

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He is better from neutral because he has great technique in movement, setting up, and actually taking the risk to create offense and SHOOT.

 

Why isn't Megaludis able to have as much success at taking down the top guys? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Delgado had an easier time taking down McDonough and Garret than Megaludis did.

 

And I disagree that Megaludis has great technique. I mentioned his poor technique in finishing already, but I should have included his setups and penetration too. He will never win anything big wrestling the way he does. I also disagree that Megaludis should be credited for taking risk. Why should he if the risk often comes from taking poorly setup shots? It would be better not to shoot than to take one of Megaludis' typical shots.

 

 

If the refs forced the guys to wrestle in the center of the mat Megas finishes wouldn't look so terrible.

 

I disagree. Megaludis has a problem with some very fundamental aspects of setups and td finishes. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case in the middle of the mat as well. Actually, there was plenty of wrestling done in the center of the mat, and plenty of failed attempts by Megaludis.

 

We need a push out point in folkstyle. This style is not exciting and actually disincentivises guys to be offensive.

 

I don't see why everything has to be about excitement.

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But taking 8 shots to 1 or whatever it was spread out throughout the match does mean you are constantly attacking.

 

Not necessarily. It's possible to outshoot an opponent 8 to 1 and not be constantly attacking. There may be big gaps of time between shots. Ex. You could string together 3-4 shots in a span of 10 seconds and then not shoot for the next minute.

 

You don't have to take a shot every few seconds to be on the attack.

 

I agree. What do you think is the maximum amount of time you can go without shooting while still being on the attack?

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I don't see why everything has to be about excitement.

 

Because sports are inherently contrived forms of entertainment, thus excitement should be a big deal.

 

Of course, but I said I don't see why everything has to be about excitement. I'm sure there are plenty of ways that the sport can be changed to make the product more exciting to a larger audience. However, I don't believe we should try to make all of those changes. Do you?

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i only watched the match once and not too closely, but i agree with folks saying its some of the best evidence we've got for a step out rule. you'll never ever fix stalling as long as its a judgement call by the refs. in the meantime, what delgado did may have been boring but it was was tactically and strategically smart. i dont blame the refs or the wrestlers, just the rules.

 

and while i appreciate an attacking style as a spectator, i also appreciate a little game theory when deployed in a match. if you know youre opponent is going to attack, it can be to your advantage to focus solely on counters. that said, mega could be playing some longer term gamesmanship, saving a change in tactics for the NCAAs.

 

and yeah, it wasnt the most exciting match, but thats often the case with two top wrestlers who are familiar with each other. it makes their next potential match at the NCAAs that much more exciting.

 

anyway, just my thoughts. probably watch the B1G finals again on DVR when i have more time. found them very entertaining the first go around.

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I'm sure there are plenty of ways that the sport can be changed to make the product more exciting to a larger audience.

 

suspend the mat over a tank of piranhas and have no out of bounds area?

 

That's one way.

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I could not disagree with you more about Mega super. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how crisp you are in neutral. In 125 guys are so fast that's especially true for the defensive guys (like Delgado right now or the bad match up lanky McDonough).

 

Mega's offensive technique in neutral is as good or better than any other 125. Garrett uses his ability to explode physically as he does his technique. Delgado actually looked offense last year at B1G against McDonough. I did not see that in this year's tournament.

 

Mega should be credited for taking risks because its wrestling and it is better to wrestle than stand there staring at each other back up to opposite ends of the mat not doing anything. Either he shoots while Delgado is backing up AWAY from him, or no one shoots.

 

His setups and penetration is fine, not sloppy, he's working with what he has. Delgado has amazing defense and jumps right into the scramble/roll/whatever for the stalemate when necessary. Imagine how tiring that is after a few times? Muscles are burning and you've expended a lot of energy for 0 points.

 

Mega has almost always been able to get takedowns when he needs them. Getting to the NCAA finals two years in a row even after getting 2nd tells me he can perform when the pressure is on. The NCAA semi's and quarters put plenty of pressure on you.

 

When you are near the edge of the mat it completely changes how you approach and take your shots, you know that you can't get total penetration or else you'll go out. You try to use a quicker, less "driving" take down and it can get you in trouble.

 

I agree. What do you think is the maximum amount of time you can go without shooting while still being on the attack?

 

I have no idea. You only know that by watching a match in its entirety and making a call, that's all subjective.

 

Same with what constitutes "constantly attacking" vs. Just "attacking". I think its semantics and a pointless argument, but IMO when you take some 8 shots as Mega did spread out across the entire match as Mega's were, it then can be quite easily described as constantly attacking.

 

I disagree. Megaludis has a problem with some very fundamental aspects of setups and td finishes. I don't see why that wouldn't be the case in the middle of the mat as well. Actually, there was plenty of wrestling done in the center of the mat, and plenty of failed attempts by Megaludis.

 

We need a push out point in folkstyle. This style is not exciting and actually disincentivises guys to be offensive.

 

And how many failed attempts by Delgado?

 

I don't see why everything has to be about excitement.

 

"Everything" isn't about excitement, I love wrestling no matter what and understand guys try to win no matter what but there is no way around the fact that this is a spectator sport. We are all fans here and wrestling is trying to grow more of a fan base, excitement is a consideration. Even if all we are trying to do is get the ex-wrestlers back watching NCAA wrestling instead of the same baseball highlights on SportsCenter for the 1000th time. Wrestling will NOT win over anyone if our product rewards being boring, stalling, or gamesmanship on display.

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Why does Mega permit Delgado to set up shop on the edge? Mega burned eons of clock just tying up Delgado and dancing on the edge. Borrow one from the old Iowa playbook and either (1) tie up Delgado and shove him off the mat for the restart; or (2) back up to the middle of the mat and wait for for Delgado there - instead of following Delgado everywhere just return to the center whenever he takes off for the edge.

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Great point Doc. He followed him all over the place playing right into his game plan of controlling where the match took place and where Mega's offensive attempts would occur.

 

THAT is where Mega was lacking. Very much lacking in fact.

 

Not in how he set up or took his shots.

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i only watched the match once and not too closely, but i agree with folks saying its some of the best evidence we've got for a step out rule. you'll never ever fix stalling as long as its a judgement call by the refs. in the meantime, what delgado did may have been boring but it was was tactically and strategically smart. i dont blame the refs or the wrestlers, just the rules.

 

and while i appreciate an attacking style as a spectator, i also appreciate a little game theory when deployed in a match. if you know youre opponent is going to attack, it can be to your advantage to focus solely on counters. that said, mega could be playing some longer term gamesmanship, saving a change in tactics for the NCAAs.

 

and yeah, it wasnt the most exciting match, but thats often the case with two top wrestlers who are familiar with each other. it makes their next potential match at the NCAAs that much more exciting.

 

anyway, just my thoughts. probably watch the B1G finals again on DVR when i have more time. found them very entertaining the first go around.

 

Whatever the rules, this is always going to be a bad style matchup. Delgado relentlessly attacked McD because (in my opinion) he respected McD's offense but felt he had an advantage in scrambles off his own shots. In other words, he felt pressure to beat McD to the takedown and wasn't too worried about being under McD off his shot. With Mega, it's the opposite - he has less respect for Mega's ability to take him down off Mega's shot but respects Mega's scramble/funk ability and Mega's gas tank, so Delgado refuses to engage and instead restricts himself to attempting to score from frustrating Mega and capitalizing on his mistakes.

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The difference in the match was the ride out where Stallgado kept grabbing Mega's ankle and picking it up without trying to improve. He did it 3x and the clock ran out. It was the exact same thing DSJ did to I Jordan.

 

Both of them killed off the 30 seconds easily despite never trying to improve and never even trying to hide what they were doing. That is stalling.

 

And that is whining. Typical of the psu jock sniffer.

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Too bad the refs don't call stalling when Megaludis has at least one knee on the mat for well over 5 seconds. Tough to shoot in on a guy when he doesn't have the balls to wrestle properly, like Megaludis. He knows Delgado could easily get to a leg.

 

Nico showed a lot of class after the match. Let's hear how wonderful he and his family are. :lol:

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Great point Doc. He followed him all over the place playing right into his game plan of controlling where the match took place and where Mega's offensive attempts would occur.

 

THAT is where Mega was lacking. Very much lacking in fact.

 

Not in how he set up or took his shots.

 

This is a major source of frustration with me when it comes to watching and discussing wrestling. So much of the discussion focuses on the refs and stalling calls, while so little focuses on the strategy and tactics employed in the match and, just as importantly, the strategy and tactics that could have and should have been employed to obtain a different result. Was Delgado stalling? Yeah, I think he was. I think there could have been, maybe should have been, a call. But stalling or no stalling, the match was decided by Mega having NO plan for Delgado - no strategy going in and no adjustments as the match went on. Delgado wrestled a brilliant strategic and tactical match - and I have the feeling he would have adjusted his strategy and tactics had he been warned. Mega just kept beating his head against the same wall (which may be admirable when that is one's only option, but here it wasn't).

 

And before anyone gets after me for criticizing Mega, I should say that I am a huge, huge fan of his. I think he's a great competitor and think the MegaSTALL reputation occasionally floated on these boards is undeserved. But he just got entirely sucked into Delgado's game plan in this match and had no plan to help him win the match.

 

Same thing with McIntosh in the Heflin match - no plan. Hang around, have the coaches bait the refs and pray for a stalling call.

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But he just got entirely sucked into Delgado's game plan in this match and had no plan to help him win the match.

 

Same thing with McIntosh in the Heflin match - no plan. Hang around, have the coaches bait the refs and pray for a stalling call.

 

To be fair, what exactly were his options?

 

I just think Delgado is a mismatch. Mega needs to tie up to be at his best, but Delgado can be just as effective from a distance. How do you wrestle a guy who is quicker than you from the feet, has better footwork and can move around as quickly as he can shoot in on you if you try to close the gap, and can beat you on the mat? I'd be down wrestling on one knee too to try to neutralize his speed and length too.

 

As for McIntosh, Heflin knew exactly what he needed to do to win: beat MM on the mat, where he has a significant advantage. I guess McIntosh could've shot more, but it's not like Heflin is easy to score on. Even Ed Ruth wasn't exactly lighting him up back when he was at 174.

 

I don't think either guy could've done that much better with a different strategy.

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Yeah... Its stalling to stay on one knee only while stalking your opponent all over the mat because he's backing up and bouncing away from you... Oh wait no it's not.

 

+1 Doc, 100% true. Delgado was stalling, Mega was wrestling. But unfortunately Delgado was the only one wrestling with his opponents style in mind so he deserved to win. Mega wrestled well the entire tournament but it doesn't matter, if you aren't being strategic then you are screwing yourself. Look at how Steiber adjusted his approach to Retherford. He knew he had to get a takedown early and stay on top to get a mental edge in the rest of the match and knowing how nasty Zain is Logan took neutral negating Zains biggest advantage.

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I could not disagree with you more about Mega super. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how crisp you are in neutral. In 125 guys are so fast that's especially true for the defensive guys (like Delgado right now or the bad match up lanky McDonough).

 

I'd go point for point with you Husky, but I'm afraid it wouldn't be fruitful. If you can't see the flaws in Megaludis' neutral technique, everything from the setup to the finish, then I simply don't know how to respond. His technique is simply not up to par. Many times, it's horrible. I know that Cael would say the same thing.

 

Mega's offensive technique in neutral is as good or better than any other 125. Garrett uses his ability to explode physically as he does his technique. Delgado actually looked offense last year at B1G against McDonough. I did not see that in this year's tournament.

 

Even if his technique is as good or better than anyone else at 125 that doesn't therefore mean his technique isn't poor. From what I've seen, Garrett has him beat in the td category.

 

Mega should be credited for taking risks because its wrestling and it is better to wrestle than stand there staring at each other back up to opposite ends of the mat not doing anything. Either he shoots while Delgado is backing up AWAY from him, or no one shoots.

 

Do you have a reason for why it's better to take poor shots and put yourself in bad position rather than staying in a good stance? For the life of me, I don't understand this reasoning. "Either he shoots while Delgado is backing up AWAY from him, or no one shoots". Okay... then no one shoots. And that's a problem why??? I don't see why it's better to take a bad shoot rather than stay in good position.

 

His setups and penetration is fine, not sloppy

 

Yes they are. Okay, maybe not all the time, but a lot of times they are. Against the top guys, they are often very sloppy.

 

 

Mega has almost always been able to get takedowns when he needs them. Getting to the NCAA finals two years in a row even after getting 2nd tells me he can perform when the pressure is on. The NCAA semi's and quarters put plenty of pressure on you.

 

When it comes time to actually win "the big one" Megaludis has not found a way to get the TDs.

 

When you are near the edge of the mat it completely changes how you approach and take your shots, you know that you can't get total penetration or else you'll go out. You try to use a quicker, less "driving" take down and it can get you in trouble.

 

Yes, and Megaludis is failing both in td attempts on the edge and in the middle of the mat.

 

 

Same with what constitutes "constantly attacking" vs. Just "attacking". I think its semantics and a pointless argument, but IMO when you take some 8 shots as Mega did spread out across the entire match as Mega's were, it then can be quite easily described as constantly attacking.

 

On the flip side, I can easily make the case that it is not constantly attacking. So we are now back to where we started.

 

If you acknowledge that these calls are subjective, then why do you insist on saying that Delgado was stalling?

 

And how many failed attempts by Delgado?

 

How is this relevant in the slightest?

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