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superold

True freshman Dake vs Stieber

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"I'm not sure why you're upset that I pointed out that Stieber didn't mention any sickness being the cause for his wrestling not being up to par in his interviews. I was simply stating a fact."

 

Are there no caveats to be added to this simply stated fact, that you keep repeating, as if it were positive proof of Logan's health?

 

LkwdSteve, we went over this before didn't we? I see no reason to doubt Logan's statements. He mentions several things that he felt contributed to the loss, and he didn't mention sickness. I see so reason to look for other causes that he didn't mention. Bottom line to me, was that Stieber was well enough to win the match, and he didn't. Poor technique and tactics cost Stieber the match.

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Lol this thread is 3 pages long and you got what? 1 guy who agreed with you that frosh Dake beats current Stieber? .........just sayin :lol:

 

Pretty far fetched. Just give the guy his due credit, concede his greatness and move on.

 

Not that I'm looking for it, but there could be more who agree. Several haven't given their thoughts on the matchup.

 

You give no argument to support the belief that Dake beating Stieber is far fetched. If I were the sensitive type, I could take that comment and twist it into an insult to Dake as a wrestler. That's what a few including yourself have done to me.

 

I have given Stieber his credit every step of the way. I don't know why you would suggest that I haven't. If this topic bothers you so much, you don't have to participate in it.

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"I see so reason to look for other causes that he didn't mention."

 

You didn't actually respond to my points, but now you have (in part).

 

1. If there were other causes, such as a physical problem, then you believe that Logan would have mentioned it. On that we disagree. I don't think Logan would have offered any excuses or explanations at that time. Maybe ten years from now (if there were any to offer). But not now.

2. Didn't Tom Ryan offer a reason to look for other causes, based on his comments?

 

You have a reasonable position. You believe Logan, but not Ryan. I just think you are wrong.

I think I have a reasonable position too. I don't necessarily believe either of them.

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"Dake beating Stieber is far fetched."

 

Far fetched? I can't imagine anyone seriously believing that.

 

In this discussion, I don't think there should be STRONG favorites or PROHIBITIVE favorites, just slight favorites between these two hypothetical protaganists.

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"I see so reason to look for other causes that he didn't mention."

 

You didn't actually respond to my points, but now you have (in part).

 

1. If there were other causes, such as a physical problem, then you believe that Logan would have mentioned it. On that we disagree. I don't think Logan would have offered any excuses or explanations at that time. Maybe ten years from now (if there were any to offer). But not now.

2. Didn't Tom Ryan offer a reason to look for other causes, based on his comments?

 

You have a reasonable position. You believe Logan, but not Ryan. I just think you are wrong.

I think I have a reasonable position too. I don't necessarily believe either of them.

 

 

Well Logan mentioned several different factors that he believed contributed to his loss and he didn't mention physical problems. He knows exactly what's wrong with him, unlike Ryan. I'm not sure what Ryan said, but Logan was interviewed afterwards and he made no mention of a physical problem. I have no reason to believe that Logan would mention certain factors and not others. I see no reason to consider other possibilities. But like I said before, Logan was physically well enough to win that match. That's what I'm most concerned with.

 

If you'd like to point me to what Ryan said, I'd appreciate it.

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It doesn't really matter. I support the position that Logan could have won that match and didn't.

 

The question now is a hypothetical match between true freshmen phenoms Retherford and Dake. Who could escape the other? Who gets that overtime takedown?

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It doesn't really matter. I support the position that Logan could have won that match and didn't.

 

The question now is a hypothetical match between true freshmen phenoms Retherford and Dake. Who could escape the other? Who gets that overtime takedown?

 

The question was a hypothetical match between true freshman Dake and RSJR. Stieber.

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It doesn't really matter. I support the position that Logan could have won that match and didn't.

 

The question now is a hypothetical match between true freshmen phenoms Retherford and Dake. Who could escape the other? Who gets that overtime takedown?

 

The question was a hypothetical match between true freshman Dake and RSJR. Stieber.

 

It's been answered and talked out. Everyone believes one or the other would be a slight favorite. I lean toward Logan. You lean toward Dake. I lean toward Logan because I lean toward Retherford in a match with TF Dake.

 

I think Retherford/Dake is a good question and should take over the discussion.

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It doesn't really matter. I support the position that Logan could have won that match and didn't.

 

The question now is a hypothetical match between true freshmen phenoms Retherford and Dake. Who could escape the other? Who gets that overtime takedown?

 

The question was a hypothetical match between true freshman Dake and RSJR. Stieber.

 

It's been answered and talked out. Everyone believes one or the other would be a slight favorite. I lean toward Logan. You lean toward Dake. I lean toward Logan because I lean toward Retherford in a match with TF Dake.

 

I think Retherford/Dake is a good question and should take over the discussion.

 

If you'd like to discuss Retherford/Dake there's already a thread for that.

 

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=324389

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Nope that thread was co-opted into a discussion about Stieber. :D

 

It still has a discussion about Retherford and Dake however. Feel free to turn that thread back to its original topic. This one should stay Dake vs. Stieber. Thanks.

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On one of the local boards an opinion was expressed that, according to the specific criteria for Hodge selection, that Stieber met them more than Dake did last year, and that Logan was robbed of the award, because of another wrestler's "lifetime achievement".

 

Yeah or nay?

 

Significant nay.

 

The Hodge criteria: record, # of pins, dominance, past credentials, quality of competition, sportsmanship.

 

Stieber was most dominant (based on the NCAA's ranking system). We'll call sportsmanship a wash.

 

Dake won every other category. He was 37-0, Stieber was 27-0. He had 18 pins, Stieber had 14. His past credentials included three NCAA championships, Stieber's included one. I'm not saying Stieber's path to the title was easy - it wasn't - but Dake had two official matches against defending champ and two-time finalist David Taylor and two matches against Tyler Caldwell, a past finalist. Stieber's competition didn't measure up to that.

 

Based strictly on the Hodge criteria, Dake was an easy call last year, just as Taylor is an easy call this year.

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Little known point somewhat relevant to this thread:

 

Stieber is actually one month older than Dake.

 

Steiber's dob is 1/24/91. Dake's DOB 2/25/91.

 

True Freshman Dake at 141 was 19. Steiber at 141 this year was 23.

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On one of the local boards an opinion was expressed that, according to the specific criteria for Hodge selection, that Stieber met them more than Dake did last year, and that Logan was robbed of the award, because of another wrestler's "lifetime achievement".

 

Yeah or nay?

 

Significant nay.

 

The Hodge criteria: record, # of pins, dominance, past credentials, quality of competition, sportsmanship.

 

Stieber was most dominant (based on the NCAA's ranking system). We'll call sportsmanship a wash.

 

Dake won every other category. He was 37-0, Stieber was 27-0. He had 18 pins, Stieber had 14. His past credentials included three NCAA championships, Stieber's included one. I'm not saying Stieber's path to the title was easy - it wasn't - but Dake had two official matches against defending champ and two-time finalist David Taylor and two matches against Tyler Caldwell, a past finalist. Stieber's competition didn't measure up to that.

 

Based strictly on the Hodge criteria, Dake was an easy call last year, just as Taylor is an easy call this year.

 

Convincing info.

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As a true freshman Dake beat returning finalist and 5th year senior Humphrey more than once. This despite a significant learning curve. As a red shirt freshman and sophomore Stieber won controversial titles at non-competitive weights, and as a red shirt junior was seriously challenged by a true freshman.

 

So in answer I think a true freshman Dake, although he hadn't quite hit his stride yet, would give this year's Stieber a major challenge.

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Age differences are not factor at all. After all, many younger kids beat older kids. It's the skills and talents that counts.

 

I don't understand why the people keep pointing to the age as the excuse when Cael, Kyle, Dustin, and other freshmen has won the NCAAs despite their age.

 

So, the age is not a factor and is irrelevant.

 

I would pick RS junior Logan Stieber over true freshman Kyle Dake because Logan was more dominant than Kyle. Kyle is similar to Zain Retherford the terrific rider. Logan lost to Zain then turn around to beat him twice. Logan may be doing the same thing to Kyle.

 

However, if Logan and Kyle were both freshmen at 141 then it is entirely debatable. The outcome may be either way.

 

 

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Steiber was in a weight with jordan Oliver and tony ramos...I wouldn't call that non competitive

 

Non-competitive was a poor word choice. I'd say it was reasonably comparable to 141 in Dake's true freshman year, although Oliver did have the 133 title.

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I don't understand why the people keep pointing to the age as the excuse when Cael, Kyle, Dustin, and other freshmen has won the NCAAs despite their age.

 

I brought up age earlier when discussing who had the worse loss between Stieber and Dake. Stieber's loss as RsJr (RSSr. aged) to a true freshman is definitely the worse loss if we're looking at this from a total career perspective.

 

I would pick RS junior Logan Stieber over true freshman Kyle Dake because Logan was more dominant than Kyle. Kyle is similar to Zain Retherford the terrific rider. Logan lost to Zain then turn around to beat him twice. Logan may be doing the same thing to Kyle.

 

What relevance does Stieber's "dominance" have to do with this specific matchup? Taylor had plenty of statistical advantages when he faced Dake, and that didn't work out too well for him.

 

Could Stieber handle Dake's combination of athleticism and height? I think Dake at 5'9 with those long arms would give Stieber trouble. What if a scramble ensued, would Stieber win? I have strong doubts. I don't like this match for Stieber, I'm not sure where his advantage is. Well, I'd give him an edge on offense from the neutral position, but will one td do it? I don't think so.

 

However, if Logan and Kyle were both freshmen at 141 then it is entirely debatable. The outcome may be either way.

 

What do you mean "then it is entirely debatable"? I think it's entirely debatable now. Do you disagree?

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Does Dake lose yet another forum hypothetical match? Might en up being the most reviled wrestler on the boards since .... well, maybe ever. Has Kyle ever won one of these

In most hypothetical matches I think people just underestimate him because of how he wins. This one on the other hand, you're comparing a true freshman ncaa champ versus a 3 time ncaa national champ, so it isn't like this is a fair comparison. This is a slight at Stieber whether Superold wants to admit it or not. Now if hypothetically a junior Stieber was the same weight as junior Dake and they wrestled, that would be understandable, and I'd choose Dake.

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Does Dake lose yet another forum hypothetical match? Might en up being the most reviled wrestler on the boards since .... well, maybe ever. Has Kyle ever won one of these

In most hypothetical matches I think people just underestimate him because of how he wins. This one on the other hand, you're comparing a true freshman ncaa champ versus a 3 time ncaa national champ, so it isn't like this is a fair comparison. This is a slight at Stieber whether Superold wants to admit it or not. Now if hypothetically a junior Stieber was the same weight as junior Dake and they wrestled, that would be understandable, and I'd choose Dake.

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