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madcat11

"You make our sport boring"

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If the refs would start calling it in the 1st period and being overly aggressive instead of overly passive, things would change in a hurry and everyone would adapt. I mean I'd much rather bitch about a ref calling stalling too much than them not calling any meaningful ones. Right now a ref could become a rockstar if they came out and started throwing the calls up like he should.

 

I'm with the pushout rule. Might eliminate a lot of guys playing the edge and diving out of bounds.

 

Something has to change, even hardcore fans are upset at the "state" of the game and are reserved to the fact that it's become a stallfest until the last minute or so. How do you think your average fans view our sport if the hardcore fans are disappointed in the product?

Hell at this rate they should just put 1 minute on the clock and let them wrestle from there.

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"They" have to find a way to make stalling as black and white as possible. Take as much judgement out of it as possible. Riding below the waist for more than 5 seconds? Stalling. Take 5 steps backward without an attempt to score? Stalling. Back off the mat on your feet at all? Stalling. Your opponent has 3 shots, or scoring attempts(define scoring attempts in the rule book) and you have none? Stalling.

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Works for me. Currently Fs has time limits- no scoring for 2 min and someone gets called. It's a heavy handed solution but it might help.

 

Also certain positions just need to be eliminated. Hanging onto a leg? Congrats, your guy had escaped. Going off the mat? Push out point. Also look at eliminating shot defended from your back. How would a mis throw rule go over?

 

Honestly as much blame as the refs and athletes deserve for boring matches a lot of it is match format. When it takes 30 seconds or more to finish a single td and then a bunch of riding happens, there just isn't that much time to set up and take good attacks.

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I thought Cael's commentary was funny but it didn't have any teeth, as McIntosh just stood around and prayed for a stall call. McIntosh either had no idea how to attack Heflin or no confidence in his attacks, and he (correctly) feared ending up under Heflin off of a counter.

 

What I don't really understand is McIntosh's hesitancy in the third overtime period. He didn't seem real gassed, and going into that period he'd all but already lost the match if he didn't score in the third overtime. But instead of going after Heflin he sits back all period and then takes that awful shot with no time left. Nonsensical approach.

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I think Cael's commentary is asnine.

The only people making "our sport" boring are his athletes.

Taylor doesn't have any problems creating action.

 

High and mighty PSU can push the action, it doesn't have to come from someone that isn't in a competitor's uniform.

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On that day, during the start of the finals bouts…….

 

I first noticed the Professor allude to the issue of stalling, during the final at 125.

 

Each time that Megaludis got deep to a single (4 maybe 5 times ?) Delgado went quickly to Mega's ankle.

Every time. It actually got to be bordering on boring (did I actually say that)?

 

I know……some will say that it is 'the funk' personified. Back in the day it was frightfully known as unorthodox AKA at times as …. 'the boring wrestler'. Note how often the word bore/boring is coming up for me.

 

Every time Mega got in deep, the outcome of such an offensive action, seemed to be pre-determined .…stalemate.

Now……I must do a little soul searching here. Could it be that some of these most recent comments re: stalling are coming from many more of us than the Professor ? I vividly recall that same Professor being college wrestlings epitome of aggressive/offensive in nature. I, for one, do not blame the guy. He is likely just saying 'come on guys let's get some exciting stuff goin' here.

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That Megaludis match was an odd one. Mega was so low that Delgado didn't really have space to attack legs, but Mega wasn't in good position to finish his own shots. Hence ankle grab, counter ankle grab, repeat.

 

The larger point IMO is the current rule set and the application thereof often make it advantageous to employ defensive tactics like these. The goal IMO is to tweak both so effective offense will be in every athletes best interest.

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That Megaludis match was an odd one. Mega was so low that Delgado didn't really have space to attack legs, but Mega wasn't in good position to finish his own shots. Hence ankle grab, counter ankle grab, repeat.

 

The larger point IMO is the current rule set and the application thereof often make it advantageous to employ defensive tactics like these. The goal IMO is to tweak both so effective offense will be in every athletes best interest.

 

Yeah Armspin, must agree with a lot of what you say. Getting in deep can, in some ways, be (but) just a part of the takedown business. To finish the TD can be an art in and of itself. A little blame spread all around -if you will.

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"You make our sport boring"..........but so many other wrestlers (and probably the majority of wrestlers) stay in the middle, have had it, and "make our sport great".

 

For example, didn't you love when Steiber and Retherford were on their feet in neutral, near the edge, broke free, then both voluntarily went right back to the center and wrestled? No out of bounds, no boring stalemate, no ref involved. Two true champions.

 

To all you wrestlers that do stay in the middle and go right after the win - you guys rock! "You make our sport great."

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The only people making "our sport" boring are his athletes.

Excuse me sir, your bias is showing.

Not really.

I hate listening to coaches berate officials. It is classless.

Regardless of whether it is the norm or not doesn't make it ok or productive.

It is peewee-esque. Cael should know better.

 

Listening to the Stanford coaches a few years back when Mooch beat Ruth made me sick as well.

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Nobody yelled stalling repeatedly more than Gable.

 

I read maybe 100 posts claiming stalling during Big10's on The Guillotine, and then three times that many on Hawkeye Report.

 

It is hardly only Cael Sanderson talking about this subject.

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Of course it isn't just Cael.

 

Advocating for stalling is one thing, personally accusing one official for the demise of the sport is another.

Doing within earshot of a camera to be broadcast in front of the nation is a bit over the line if you ask me.

 

Brands told an official "you just set the sport back twenty years" a few years back.

 

I am all for Cael taking the guy aside after the match and illustrating his "making wrestling boring" point.

During the match isn't the time and it makes him look elitist.

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I personally hate seeing a ref decide matches. I must be in the minority. Having trouble setting up offensive techniques is not stalling. I think people want to see guys get banged unless they are taking bad shots, going for throws, stepping backwards, sprawling, returning a guy to the mat etc etc. If there is nothing open, it is good defense by the opponent. Not stalling.

 

Yes, some guys stall more than others. This isn't really something new though.

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I personally hate seeing a ref decide matches. I must be in the minority. Having trouble setting up offensive techniques is not stalling. I think people want to see guys get banged unless they are taking bad shots, going for throws, stepping backwards, sprawling, returning a guy to the mat etc etc. If there is nothing open, it is good defense by the opponent. Not stalling.

 

Yes, some guys stall more than others. This isn't really something new though.

Knock it off with that common sense.

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I personally hate seeing a ref decide matches. I must be in the minority. Having trouble setting up offensive techniques is not stalling. I think people want to see guys get banged unless they are taking bad shots, going for throws, stepping backwards, sprawling, returning a guy to the mat etc etc. If there is nothing open, it is good defense by the opponent. Not stalling.

 

Yes, some guys stall more than others. This isn't really something new though.

Knock it off with that common sense.

 

I'll second that. I hate it when guys call stalling because another wrestler refuses to take a bad shot and then get countered and scored on by the other wrestler. It's one thing when a guy is taking a million shots and then they want to call stalling, but other times it's a situation where the other guy isn't being any more offensive than the guy they're whining about. If your guy is a wrestler that does 90% of his scoring off of counters, then shut up. He has every opportunity to create offense as does his opponent, and it's not his opponent's obligation to take a poor shot, so he can counter and score.

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Lord Nelson, it doesn't bother me that you didn't like Cael's comments. I was questioning your statement that the only ones making our sport boring are Cael's athletes. You're entitled to your opinion, but that statement is purely ridiculous. I'm not even getting into the stalling discussion, as it's jumped the shark long ago.

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Cael's athletes=The "Coach's" athlete that whines or bullies the ref

 

I'll give Cael credit in that his athletes are certainly less guilty than most at borefests, then again he does have Ruth and Taylor to work with.

 

It doesn't excuse him as you say.

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skip the warning and just make it a penalty point.

 

More than a bit out of place for a non-religious guy to say this but, Amen brother, Amen. I can't begin to count the number of matches where a wrestler will stall nearly the entire match and then with 30 seconds or less to go the ref will finally give him a warning for it. There was a ref when I was in high school, that made it very clear that he didn't give warnings. If you stalled he called you for it. I remember once at the conference tournament a kid danced around the edge of the mat nearly the entire third period and then began to celebrate along with the cheers of the crowd when the ref held up a point for stalling to tie the match. You talk about a coach and a home crowd coming unglued. The stalling wrestler ended up getting a takedown in overtime, much to the crowd's delight, as the wrestler and his coach had a staredown with the referee.

 

He was booed on more than one occasion and seemed to have a run in with about everyone wrestler/coach/fan at one point or another.

 

I wrestled a guy once that was coming across my throat extremely hard choking me and he came out and slapped the kid on the back saying, "Don't choke him or I'll penalize you for it" The kid said back to the referee, "I didn't realize I was choking him" and then to me, "Sorry man, I wasn't meaning to choke you". Sort of an odd conversation to take place during the last 20 so seconds of the match, but it is what happened. Considering that kid majored 3 kids that year I lost to, I was fairly happy to secure 3 takedowns in a 9-6 loss. That is neither here nor there, but the point is the ref could care less what anyone thought of him. He called it like he saw it and no influence was going to alter his decisions.

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It's not about blaming specific athletes or even officials. Every spectator sport with points scoring enacts rules to encourage offence and reduce defence, because offence is harder and riskier than defence. Basketball has pass interference, hockey has regular interference and delay of game calls, basketball has shot clicks and MMA has aggression as one of the criteria for winning a round.

 

In NCAA wrestling the balance seems to be out of whack. The primary pro offence rule, discretionary stalling calls, have proven ineffective. One of two things needs to happen:

 

A- a change in how stalling is called, perhaps with mandatory stalling calls for scoreless periods of time. This would probably increase action but at the expense of more referee influence. IMO the biggest strength of folks type wrestling over its cousins FS and MMA is relatively uncontroversial scoring and it would be sad to see that go.

 

An alternative solution is to change the rules I eliminate specific, predictable situations that slow down actions that hinder scoring. Situations such as playing the out of bounds line, "riding" an ankle, spending two minutes working for a single RT point, defending shots off your back, and so on. Many people have already suggested simple solutions to these problems. We should try them.

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(1) A push out rule will keep the action on the mat and reward offensive wrestlers. As it stands now, the out of bounds marker is another tool wrestlers have to stop offense. I don't think that's a good idea. If you're in a position where you need to go out of bounds to prevent offense, I think the offensive wrestler deserves a point or two.

 

(2) A shot clock will encourage offense. If your opponent is being more aggressive than you, I think it's fair to put you on a shot clock. Because your opponent being more aggressive means a few things: (A) Your opponent is showing better defense than you. (B) Your opponent is showing better offense than you. © Despite the score being tied, your opponent is taking more risks than you. (D) You are significantly outgunned, so your only chance is to keep the score close by non-scoring gimmicks. (E) Some combination of the above.

 

A set of rules will always benefit one style over another, one strategy over another, and one approach over another. The way the rules are now isn't somehow "natural." They reward defensive wrestling, conservative wrestling, and non-scoring gimmicks. I see nothing wrong with rewarding offensive firepower and risk taking.

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