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AKHUNTER

Houston we have a problem......

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Houston we have a problem.........

 

What can be done to get rid of stalling...... OBVIOUSLY it has to be taken out of the refs hands.

Changing the rules to TRY to get the refs to do their job just hasn't worked.

I know there have to be many opinions but for my money I say we switch to first to 10 or whatever point requirement would be put in would work. Certainly a pin would also end a match.

The refs HAVE to be taken out of the stalling equation. Fleeing and such just let a ref decide. We have all seen how that has worked out.

First to whatever points has to make wrestlers more aggressive. If you don't score x points you aren't winning.

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I agree that this is a problem. Watching some of the videos from the 70's, the action was phenomenal. WTH happened?

 

"First to" does not work. Some matches will go for 24 hours, especially some of the Heavy's.

 

Shot clock and 1 point push out is worth a try.

 

The problem with Scribe's idea is that it will still be up to the refs to identify initiation take downs from counter shots. This might be difficult in certain scramble situations.

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1 pt step out rule and more neutral restarts. so yes more like freestyle but those rules made freestyle better and they'll make folkstyle better too. you'd still have two very different styles, as the step out is not "native" to either style and there a lots of ways to get more neutral restarts without changing folkstyle mat wrestling. if you go out o bounds on the mat its a neutral restart. or, 45 seconds and no back points is a neutral restart. or stall on top man is a neutral restart. you'd still incentivize the bottom man to get out on his own with the escape point.

 

i like the first to 10 type rules, unfortunately they make it tough to run tournaments.

 

it would be great if the semi pro events got more traction and we could see more rules experiment in action.

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What's happened since the 70's is positioning and counter wrestling, including scrambles when the old timers finished good shots with relative ease.

In other words, guys got better. Hip tosses and headlocks are exciting too, but we don't see them above the grade school level because high school kids stay in good enough position to render them ineffective. Another big thing is the internet and the easy access to technique videos on flo and youtube. Back in the good old days, you knew the moves that your coaches knew. If your coaches didn't know how to do a dump, you didn't know how to either. Now, if your coaches don't know how to do a dump, you can go home and watch Kevin Dresser teach you how to do a dump. The greater access to video also means that opponents are much easier to scout, so even if you've never wrestled against someone, you can watch his matches and gameplan.

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I would like to see a few things added from the list below:

 

#1 Takedowns changed to three points and escapes stay at 1 point.

 

I just think its bad that if Wrestler A has 2 takedowns for 4 points and Wrestler B has 2 escapes and only one takedown at the end of the period its a tie score. Just seems ridiculous to me.

 

#2a Get rid of the stalemate call and stall warning calls in overtime. It's awful to watch a match go into rideouts and see an official first call stalemate, then a warning, and then a stall call.

 

or

 

#2b Get rid of riding time all together and get rid of the escape point. 1 minute turn clock. If they haven't turned the bottom man in one minute then stand them up.

 

or

 

#2c If you keep riding time and if you have a stall call at all from the top position you are unable to accumulate riding time. For this to work you have to get rid of the silly stalemate/warning/stall call as listed above in 2a.

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well when today's guys got better someone forgot to teach moving guys to get angles. Most shots taken today are done w/o real honest to goodness setup. IMO that is why you don't see more action from neutral.

A good set up is like turning a door knob damn hard to open a door without turning the knob. Same thing with setups damn hard to get a takedown without a good set up.

 

As far as it taking forever to get to 10 or whatever...... THAT is where a stalling solution could be figured out......say any one minute period you haven't scored...your penalized once you have scored....points taken away for any minute you haven't scored. That way you don't have a guy get ahead and stall to a win because the other guy can't score. I KNOW we could come up with a successful way to accomplish the desired result......active matches!!

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I get tired of everyone crying about stalling. Wrestling at its essence is a struggle. It's the battles within the battle that are the beauty of the sport. Some guys are counter wrestlers, so are some boxers. It's the nature of a struggle. Appreciate the sport the way it is.

 

Two calls I think need to go unless they are blatant. One, a guy stands up you are automatically responsible for bringing him down...why? It makes no sense. Isn't it an advantage for a guy to get to his feet? Isn't that what he fought to do? If he can't get out, he shouldn't have stood up.

 

The second is the ankle grab from his stand up while he's kicking away. Yes there is a time and place for it when it's obviously abused, but what would you like the guy to do just let him go? Guys are literally flying after the guy to chase it down and they get banged. These are the same guys who had been busting their arses for every other portion of the match. I hate the call and saw it a ton this past weekend at the NJ states.

 

Subjectivity in wrestling is always a bad idea and stalling is always subjective. I love the push out really think the NCAA and all levels of wrestling would benefit. People who love conditioning advantages should embrace the push out. Nothing cuts more breaks than restarts. I dislike the shot clock in freestyle. Way too subjective.

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anklep...... I like much of what you said.....but what SHOULD be at the "essence" of wrestling is......uh.... wrestling. Should it be a struggle....indeed, it's a war. Today we see FAR to many matches where guys are simply trying to "keep it close" and go for "it" at the end. It's one strategy, but not one the vast majority of fans appreciate IMO. Not to mention...guess I am.... The more attacking style I wrestled the more fun I had. Listen to DT or Ruth or Steiber easily the most active wrestlers today. They talk often about how much "fun" they have. Fun for the wrestler....... fun to watch.

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DT, Ruth and Steiber can wrestle the way they do because they are that good. Not everyone is on their level and shouldn't be expected to go for broke at all times or take unnecessary risk. Everybody liked watching Mike Tyson box but not all great champions had to fight like him.

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DT, Ruth and Steiber can wrestle the way they do because they are that good. Not everyone is on their level and shouldn't be expected to go for broke at all times or take unnecessary risk. Everybody liked watching Mike Tyson box but not all great champions had to fight like him.

 

AP there is a huge canyon to leap to get from executing a good set up and following with a quality shot to......... "going for broke"

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What's happened since the 70's is positioning and counter wrestling, including scrambles when the old timers finished good shots with relative ease.

Back in the day if someone hit a nice shot on you, you took it like a man and gave up the two! Now, the wrestlers grab a leg and roll around like fools. I think if someone funk rolling stops on their back for more than one second it should be a takedown for the offensive guy and start back points.

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What's happened since the 70's is positioning and counter wrestling, including scrambles when the old timers finished good shots with relative ease.

Back in the day if someone hit a nice shot on you, you took it like a man and gave up the two! Now, the wrestlers grab a leg and roll around like fools. I think if someone funk rolling stops on their back for more than one second it should be a takedown for the offensive guy and start back points.

 

I am sorry but you CANNOT be serious. Did you just act like GIVING UP made you a man? You then back it up by calling the guy who is fighting to the end to not give up a takedown a fool? Do you think Ben Askren is/was a fool. He was a 4x finalist/2x champ and his bread and butter WAS what you call foolish. You may not like the move but you are way off on your depiction.

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Many are making the same observation, but positioning and scrambling have progressed and evolved thanks to great coaching at the youth, club & HS levels, more access to online video and most kids simply have more mat time than 15-20 years ago.

 

The wrestling has improved by leaps and bounds while the rules have taken baby steps and now elite level high school & elite level college wrestlers often find themselves headed to OT matches when up against someone on their skill level. Deep shot = scramble to no points, stalemate or out of bounds.

 

The good news is I think the rules committee will be motivated to change it after the lack of action this season at the D1 level. I hope so anyway...

 

Rameses

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Get rid of riding time and top/bottom in OT.

 

Also, neutral restarts on bottom. Any out-of-bounds restart while mat wrestling gives the bottom man the option to take a scoreless neutral restart. This incentives the top man to keep the action in bounds and takes a lot of the ref's judgement out of the HS fleeing the mat / NCAA stalling call. Plus, the bottom man will still want to score a 1pt escape a lot of the time, and will try to keep the action in bounds. Just like how in freestyle you see guys working back to the middle to try for the 2pt takedown rather than settle for the 1pt pushout.

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Rameses... indeed stalemate calls are going crazy.... The refs don't have the balls to call stalling so when a guy puts himself in a situation and then does nothing but hold that position to run time off the clock and get a stalemate called. The refs SHOULD be saying "work to improve your position or you are stalling"......then call it for freakin sake.

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What's happened since the 70's is positioning and counter wrestling, including scrambles when the old timers finished good shots with relative ease.

Back in the day if someone hit a nice shot on you, you took it like a man and gave up the two! Now, the wrestlers grab a leg and roll around like fools. I think if someone funk rolling stops on their back for more than one second it should be a takedown for the offensive guy and start back points.

 

I am sorry but you CANNOT be serious. Did you just act like GIVING UP made you a man? You then back it up by calling the guy who is fighting to the end to not give up a takedown a fool? Do you think Ben Askren is/was a fool. He was a 4x finalist/2x champ and his bread and butter WAS what you call foolish. You may not like the move but you are way off on your depiction.

Before Askren the Abas' boys with their 6 finals appearances and 3 titles were diving off into "their" roll and not acquiesing to nice shots being hit on them.

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I’ve been involved in this sport long enough to see a lot of changes, some good, mostly bad in my opinion over the past 50 years.

 

Neutral position prior to Stephen Abas introducing the dive thru method to counter single leg attacks, wrestlers either fought off takedowns with whizzers, front headlocks, and straight line defense. The attitude then was you shoot I score, I shoot I score. Now wrestlers are content to fight for a stalemate if they can’t crawl out from underneath for the takedown.

 

I think this is hurting us in international freestyle. Look at whose been successful at keeping opponents from stalemating: James Green, Jon Morrison, J’den Cox, Logan Stieber, David Taylor, Ed Ruth, Alex Dieringer, Andrew Howe (except for the last time against Chris Perry). With the exception of Taylor and Ruth these guys are blowing through their opponents and frequently getting them up on the mat. Jordan Burroughs did the same thing. The guys who are doing the diving under will need to make a major adjustment if they are going to successful in freestyle.

 

Top Position

Riding has always been important, but more so today since there are so few takedowns. The calling of a stalemate when the man is broken down flat is bogus. The bottom man was allowed to set a base that he felt he could hold or use to score and escape or reversal. When Chris Perry broke down Andrew Howe with the legs and then started cranking on his shoulder, just because he couldn’t turn Howe didn’t mean he was stalling, nor there was a stalemate. Perry had improved his position. It was Howe’s responsibility to build a base, or go his back to get the pressure off of him (Perry would have been underneath him).

.

If wrestlers knew that there wouldn’t be stalemate’s called when they were broken down, they would work a whole lot harder to get off bottom. This requires taking a chance that might result in them getting put on their back. As Logan Stieber learned he couldn’t get away from Zain Retherford. So he did what he needed, he got two takedowns, so he didn’t need to take down. David Taylor and Ed Ruth don’t try to break their opponents flat most of the time, they’ve learned it is a lot easier to turn someone who is belly down.

 

The top wrestler should be warned and penalized for stalling if: he stays on the hip, or rides the ankles. Leg rides can be parallel, but the bottom man needs to know how to prevent legs going in., or get out of them, not just lay there, not get turned, and hope for a restart.

 

Stalling

I’ve always silently counted to 30 seconds when I’ve refereed at the high school level after first minute of the match. If there was no offensive action by one or both wrestlers I would warn them. Then I’d start penalizing them. When a wrestler knows he might get disqualified for stalling, he’ll realize he is better off taking offensive chances. I never disqualified a wrestler, but a couple of times the 2pts. Was given. The matches were a lot more exciting.

 

I have suggested to college coaches I’ve known well over the past 25 years that when stalling is called, no penalty points are awarded. Instead the opposing wrestler would be given his choice of position (similar to what happens now after a wrestler takes a injury timeout). Because the referee isn’t awarding points and is leaving the match in the wrestler’s hands to win or lose, I think they would call stalling much more aggressively. Referees are human, they by and large don’t want to make enemies of the coaches or wrestlers. The Iowa method of getting an underhook and driving the opponent backwards wasn’t offensive wrestling, it was working the referee to get a stalling call.

 

Those are my sentiments, I’m sure some will agree and others will disagree. We all seem tho think something has to be done. Yet we sellout the NCAA tournament in a few days.

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