Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Big10fan

Taylor will go to 157 to wrestle Dake

Recommended Posts

Wait a minute, this topic switches from best career to best wrestler. If they never wrestle another match, Dake had the better career. 10 years from now the giddiness over Taylor's potential will be forgotten. 3 titles in 3 tries vs 1 out of 2 tries.
Based on what you're saying we can all agree that Dake's career is better than Dan Gable's career. That's silly. David Taylor is a Sophomore and hasn't event had time to win his first Olympic Gold Medal yet. Give it time lad, give it time. It's really too soon to be comparing careers. It's obvious that Dake is no match for DT.

 

You are signing him up for Olympic golds already?

 

DT just might as well hang up his shoes now and rest back on certain expectations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dake has losses to LeValley and Vinson among others. These guys were 7th place finishers in their best years. Dake has been lucky with easy weight classes facing a freshman Montel Marion for his first title, Molinaro, who is no match for DT for his 2nd title, and facing an injured St. John for his 3rd title. St. John when healthy only finished in fourth place last year in DT's bracket. I've seen Dake struggle against far too many non-all-americans to know he is not in the same league as DT. Dake is more in the same league with a Zach Bailey and Reece Humphrey splitting close decisions with Bailey and Humphrey.

 

I challenge you to be truly impartial. Take some time and compare the AA's Dake and Taylor have wrestled IN SEASON.

 

Didn't Vinson just take 3rd? LeValley(2x AA) was a damn good wrestler in pretty deep weightclasses. Does anyone not recall he gave Metcalf his toughest match not named Caldwell or Palmer? Dake's sophomore year was the MOST obvious weight management problem I have seen by a top level wrestler in quite a while. He was putting it to Vinson and just PURELY petered out. It was SUCH an unDake like match. Still regardless of if there were underlying circumstances these 2 are FAR from the chopped liver you imply them to be.

 

Calling his weight classes weak? I hope you are saying this trying to be tongue in cheek. His TRUE freshman year he lost early to 2 Seniors with multiple top 4 finishes and came back to avenge both losses. I recall Taylor losing badly to his own teammates his true freshman year. How did those teammates finish?

 

With all this said I am not saying Dake is better. I would call the match an EVEN toss-up. But to try to call Dake's first 2 years weightclasses weak would have to call Taylor's UNBELIEVABLY weak. Throughout Taylor's 2 regular seasons how many prior AA's did he wrestle? In 2 years I believe Hatchett is the ONLY prior AA he has wrestled during the regular season. Compare that to Dake. Tell me how Dake's weightclass could be easier.

It's not Taylor's fault who has been at his weights. He has dismantled nearly everyone he has faced. He just hasn't had to face multiple high quality wrestlers and since these types of comparisons can only be made off of the data at hand Taylor may be unfairly open to criticism since his 1 loss is to the only true top competition he has faced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So...when debating who has had the better career, we should ignore NCAA finishes? It seems to me that's the ultimate measure of your success. Dake currently has TWO more NCAA titles that Taylor. That matters. Win/loss record is also important to have on your side, but nearly as much as NCAA finishes.

No, I said that the whole body of work should be taken into account. That, by definition, includes NCAAs, and it's the biggest component of a wrestler's career. The NCAA gap between Taylor and Dake is very small--or maybe it's not that small at all, I guess it depends on your definition of "small." Point is, the gap in W-L is much bigger. The gap in domination is gargantuan in comparison. The gap in Hodge trophies is one, and it's going to get to two a heck of a lot easier than it gets to 0. Supposing NCAAs account for, say, 75% of a wrestler's success. Taylor has a big edge in the other 25%. I think that balances it out. In fact, getting to celebrate a bunch of team titles probably tips the balance in DT's favor.

As to Gable, he had some mitigating factors (no frosh could compete at NCAA's). NOt to mention he had 1 loss, period, in collegiate competition.

 

Yes. That's my entire point. Taylor has more or less the same mitigating factors (Taylor got dinged by the fact that freshmen can wrestle. And has only one loss in his entire NCAA career. But Gable is 2 for 3, so if Dake goes 4 for 4, then I guess that settles it for Dake no questions asked.

 

 

WIn/loss matters for differentiating between wrestlers who have relatively equal credentials. Taylor does not have nearly the credentials of Dake right now.

1 + 2 + Hodge is not far off from 1 + 1 + 1. They are going to end up 4-3 unless there is an upset, and even Bubba said that Taylor may never lose again. So I fail to see where "Taylor does not have nearly the credentials of Dake right now." At best, it is premature to compare Dake's three years to Taylor's two.

 

Neither one has even done anything in freestyle.

 

But that is really all off-topic. The point of this thread is whether Taylor would beat Dake, not who's had the better career. Taylor currently looks like the better wrestler, and (more importantly) the numbers back up what everyone is seeing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see why everyone doesn't just accept Taylor is the best NCAA has to offer right now. Why not just swallow your pride because we should ALL be rooting for him soon. He has a ton of potential to make the USA proud in the upcoming years, and I would much rather bank on him doing so than I would Dake. No pun intended to Dake, but I don't think it's anywhere close to an even toss up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to make clear that in no way am I saying Dake is anything less than a super great wrestler. Everything is relative and for this thread we're comparing Dake and Taylor. I think it would be an awesome matchup as it was six years ago:

 

Here's a great article about the two when they competed six years ago at 98 lbs:

 

"Pals Since Childhood"

http://www.win-magazine.com/2011/11/dad ... childhood/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Taylor is the better wrestler at 165 so there is no argument there. However, Dake has accomplished more and is the more decorated wrestler from a historical perspective. If they ever wrestle the same weight, we can start guessing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it is a no brainer that so far Dake has had the better college career of the two, Dake is 3 for 3 versus Taylor's 1 out of 2.

 

I said it is a no brainer on who has the better college career so far(Dake) not on who is the better wrestler is that would be up for debate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When comparing their careers, you also can't ignore the fact that they both came out of HS the same year, but Taylor redshirted and lost several matches that year. Taylor would have been 50/50 to even AA as a true freshman. Taylor has never wrestled a Marion, let alone a Molinaro or Humphrey. Is it true that Hatchett is the only wrestler that was already an All American when Taylor wrestled him? If so, that is a huge point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat Smith won 4 titles, but he doesn't seem to have the aura of 2x champ John Smith.

 

Metcalf's win percentage and placings at the NCAAs are better than Burroughs's, but the consensus is that Burroughs is easily the better wrestler.

 

Dake is ridiculously good, and his credentials are great, but its too soon to tell whether Taylor or Dake will be considered to be the better wrestler. My guess is that it will depend on their freestyle careers.

 

And let's not get crazy. Taylor has one loss and the Hodge after 2 seasons. That's extremely impressive stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's how I judge who's better...if you were a coach, who would you want on your team? It's interesting because even though I think that answer might point toward Taylor, Dake may be able to beat him head to head. If Taylor beats every other opponent 20-5 and Dake beats the same opponents 2-1 but also beats Taylor 2-1 who is the better overall wrestler?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's how I judge who's better...if you were a coach, who would you want on your team? It's interesting because even though I think that answer might point toward Taylor, Dake may be able to beat him head to head. If Taylor beats every other opponent 20-5 and Dake beats the same opponents 2-1 but also beats Taylor 2-1 who is the better overall wrestler?

 

I'm not sure we can assume Dake beats Taylor. Taylor's win percentage is better and he just wrapped up a season where had only had two decisions, both of which were "avenged" with bonus point victories. Who in recent memory has had a season like that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's how I judge who's better...if you were a coach, who would you want on your team? It's interesting because even though I think that answer might point toward Taylor, Dake may be able to beat him head to head. If Taylor beats every other opponent 20-5 and Dake beats the same opponents 2-1 but also beats Taylor 2-1 who is the better overall wrestler?

 

I'm not sure we can assume Dake beats Taylor. Taylor's win percentage is better and he just wrapped up a season where had only had two decisions, both of which were "avenged" with bonus point victories. Who in recent memory has had a season like that?

 

 

Hypothetically speaking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When comparing their careers, you also can't ignore the fact that they both came out of HS the same year, but Taylor redshirted and lost several matches that year. Taylor would have been 50/50 to even AA as a true freshman. Taylor has never wrestled a Marion, let alone a Molinaro or Humphrey. Is it true that Hatchett is the only wrestler that was already an All American when Taylor wrestled him? If so, that is a huge point.

 

I agree, so when we say Dake is 1-1-1 after junior year, if Taylor hadn't redshirted he would have been low AA? (possible DNP)-2-1 after three years. His true freshman year he probably would have been 149, and that was the year Metcalf and Palmer met in the finals. Taylor was still losing to Cyler Sanderson at that point, so how he would have performed at 149 is up in the air. Meanwhile, Dake wins NCAA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, meanwhile Dake wouldn't have fared any better against the guys at 149 that you just mentioned. And DT's development between then and now is nothing short of spectacular. If pinning your way to the finals and capping it off with a TF isn't enough to convince someone, so be it. Comparing someone that has 3 seasons under them compared to 2 isn't legit. On top of that, DT is wrestling in by far, bar none, the toughest conference in all of wrestling, and dominating while doing so. They haven't met yet, so the only way to really compare is look at common opponents. Taylor has laid a whoopin on the majority.

 

As somone who watches all levels of wrestling, including international (although I am not nearly as up to par as you dsnc), I would much rather bank on DT excelling further. He has 1 loss in his career! 1, that's it. 95% of his wins are absolutely dominating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When comparing their careers, you also can't ignore the fact that they both came out of HS the same year, but Taylor redshirted and lost several matches that year. Taylor would have been 50/50 to even AA as a true freshman. Taylor has never wrestled a Marion, let alone a Molinaro or Humphrey. Is it true that Hatchett is the only wrestler that was already an All American when Taylor wrestled him? If so, that is a huge point.

 

I agree, so when we say Dake is 1-1-1 after junior year, if Taylor hadn't redshirted he would have been low AA? (possible DNP)-2-1 after three years. His true freshman year he probably would have been 149, and that was the year Metcalf and Palmer met in the finals. Taylor was still losing to Cyler Sanderson at that point, so how he would have performed at 149 is up in the air. Meanwhile, Dake wins NCAA.

149 was a much stronger weight class then 141 that year..... if were talking about the best wrestler pound 4 pound right now.. in terms of dominance and technichability..the total package I give edge to Taylor..

165 this year would have looked pretty strong if it not for Taylor being a level above everyone else...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I had a dime for every time someone would post how DT couldn't beat Grajales, or DT couldn't beat Collin Palmer moving up a weight, or DT couldn't beat Fittery, etc, etc, etc, well ... I guess I'd be rich!

 

My prediction is that DT will beat Dake, Howe and Burroughs in April. After Dake gets his taste of being dominated he'll smartly suck up the weight and wrestle another year at the easier 157 next season.

 

Trust me, Dake is not in David Taylor's league. It's just that plain and simple. Dake has a nice career going, but we'll see what he's made of in April in a weight class stacked with four national champs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[highlight=#ecf3f7]If I had a dime for every time someone would post how KD couldn't beat Humphrey, or KD couldn't beat Molinaro , or KD couldn't beat St John, etc, etc, etc, well ... I'd guess I'd be rich![/highlight]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I had a dime for every time someone would post how DT couldn't beat Grajales, or DT couldn't beat Collin Palmer moving up a weight, or DT couldn't beat Fittery, etc, etc, etc, well ... I guess I'd be rich!

 

My prediction is that DT will beat Dake, Howe and Burroughs in April. After Dake gets his taste of being dominated he'll smartly suck up the weight and wrestle another year at the easier 157 next season.

 

Trust me, Dake is not in David Taylor's league. It's just that plain and simple. Dake has a nice career going, but we'll see what he's made of in April in a weight class stacked with four national champs.

 

 

Dake has a nice career going? You just lost all credibility with that statement. The kid has a chance to become the first 4 timer who didn't need a redshirt. Already a three timer. The kid's career is flat out phenomenal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think we can all agree that Dake is the worst 3x NCAA champ ever.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Is he good? Yes. But I think there are MANY that are way better that are only 2 or 3 timers. I also believe Dake has had the easiest route possible, not to discredit him at all. The chips just happened to fall his way.

 

I'm not a betting man but I would put big bucks on DT beating Dake 10 out of 10 times. He's THAT much better!

 

Call me crazy, but it's entirely possible with enough time in the room this offseason, next season with Andrew, Cael, Ruth and Sanderson that Dylan closes the gap!

 

Wait and see.

 

Only PSU haters or NJ lovers fail to think outside the box when it comes to Dake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[highlight=#ecf3f7]If I had a dime for every time someone would post how KD couldn't beat Humphrey, or KD couldn't beat Molinaro , or KD couldn't beat St John, etc, etc, etc, well ... I'd guess I'd be rich![/highlight]

 

No you wouldn't. Find me one post of someone asserting Dake couldn't beat Molinaro or couldn't beat St John. Skikayaker's post does deserve ridicule, but those aren't good examples. Dake has been generally under-appreciated and underrated by many on here, but all of his wins sophomore and junior years were expected. People said that Caldwell would beat him, which was faulty because of how different Caldwell looked with the injury, but we never got to see that match. Dake had big wins too early in his freshman year for people to have much doubt as to individual match-ups, he was the #1 seed going into NCAAs.

 

Skikayaker, it goes beyond bias to silliness with your prediction that Taylor rolls through Olympic Team Trials including beating Burroughs. Taylor could eventually be the best in the world, but today? First of all, he's better suited for folkstyle with his scrambling and mat skills. He doesn't have the defense or efficiency with his offensive attacks yet to be the best in the world, the latter of which helped Burroughs adjust very quickly to freestyle. Taylor can score points on anyone, but he'll have to train freestyle more to be favored against the Paulsons let alone Burroughs. I won't be surprised if he upsets one of the Paulsons or Marable, but will be completely and utterly shocked if he beats Burroughs. It will definitely be an exciting match though if we get to see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Absolutely.

 

Is he good? Yes. But I think there are MANY that are way better that are only 2 or 3 timers. I also believe Dake has had the easiest route possible, not to discredit him at all. The chips just happened to fall his way.

 

I'm not a betting man but I would put big bucks on DT beating Dake 10 out of 10 times. He's THAT much better!

 

Call me crazy, but it's entirely possible with enough time in the room this offseason, next season with Andrew, Cael, Ruth and Sanderson that Dylan closes the gap!

 

Wait and see.

 

Only PSU haters or NJ lovers fail to think outside the box when it comes to Dake.

 

Dake is from New York and you would have said the 10/10 prediction about Taylor-Jenkins before the 2011 NCAA finals. I'm not going to touch the other issues with your post, and there are MANY (your words). I'm saying this as someone who thinks Taylor would beat Dake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake is chronically underrated, even with three titles. And most people recognize that Taylor is a phenom. It's really, really hard to argue that he's not. These are two very special wrestlers. But just like NJWC said, neither of them are at Burroughs's level.

 

I think its amazing how quickly we forget that Gable couldn't make the world team right out of college, Pat Smith couldn't do anything internationally, Metcalf hasn't yet been able to do anything internationally, Cael Sanderson couldn't win a world title right out of the gate, Askren couldn't do anything internationally, Herbert hasn't been able to win a world title, McIlravy couldn't win a world title, etc.

 

I think you guys get too comfortable with the fact that Burroughs won a world title right out of college. That puts Burroughs in a different league even than the very best NCAA wrestlers. That puts him up there with Lee Kemp and John Smith. No other post-WWII American wrestler is part of that group.

 

I don't think it makes any sense to compare Dake or Taylor to Burroughs without seeing what they can do internationally. One or the other could feasibly unseat Burroughs and win a world title in the same calendar year that they win an NCAA title. But history shows us that's very unlikely. (Personally, I think Taylor's style is better suited to freestyle than Dake's style.)

 

At this point, Burroughs is easily the best active American wrestler. To believe otherwise is to bet against overwhelming odds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...