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NJDan

Cox and also Dance

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Dance had a good draw, and a much easier match in the consolation semis. It's just how the brackets ended up falling. Had Dance been on the other side of the consi bracket he would have gotten 5th, as he would have had Megaludis, and Clark would have gotten 4th. That being said, he earned 4th place, plain and simple. Cox earned his title and Retherford earned his 5th place finish. I really don't understand how someone could say Retherford is better than Cox. Retherford had two losses in this tournament, not just the one to Stieber....and Cox is a national champ. You might have a bit of an argument had Retherford only lost to Stieber, but with two losses and a 5th place finish, the "much tougher weight class" argument does not have much merit.

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Dance had a good draw, and a much easier match in the consolation semis. It's just how the brackets ended up falling. Had Dance been on the other side of the consi bracket he would have gotten 5th, as he would have had Megaludis, and Clark would have gotten 4th. That being said, he earned 4th place, plain and simple. Cox earned his title and Retherford earned his 5th place finish. I really don't understand how someone could say Retherford is better than Cox. Retherford had two losses in this tournament, not just the one to Stieber....and Cox is a national champ. You might have a bit of an argument had Retherford only lost to Stieber, but with two losses and a 5th place finish, the "much tougher weight class" argument does not have much merit.

 

I am not sure Retherford is better than Cox but I wouldn't use the lost 2x in the tournament argument. Retherford lost to a 3x champion and a defending finalist. Cox had NOWHERE near that level of competition at 197. In fact there is quite a bit of data to argue in the opposite direction. For the ENTIRE tournament Cox wrestled zero 197 returning AA's. In fact the ONLY returning AA he wrestled was Heflin who did it 2x at 174. Retherford had to wrestle the returning 4th place finisher in the FIRST round.

 

Cox may go on to have better career finishes than Retherford, but to ignore the level of competition each faced is a mistake.

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I am not sure Retherford is better than Cox but I wouldn't use the lost 2x in the tournament argument. Retherford lost to a 3x champion and a defending finalist. Cox had NOWHERE near that level of competition at 197. In fact there is quite a bit of data to argue in the opposite direction. For the ENTIRE tournament Cox wrestled zero 197 returning AA's. In fact the ONLY returning AA he wrestled was Heflin who did it 2x at 174. Retherford had to wrestle the returning 4th place finisher in the FIRST round.

 

Cox may go on to have better career finishes than Retherford, but to ignore the level of competition each faced is a mistake.

 

Well said!

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Dance had a good draw, and a much easier match in the consolation semis. It's just how the brackets ended up falling. Had Dance been on the other side of the consi bracket he would have gotten 5th, as he would have had Megaludis, and Clark would have gotten 4th. That being said, he earned 4th place, plain and simple. Cox earned his title and Retherford earned his 5th place finish. I really don't understand how someone could say Retherford is better than Cox. Retherford had two losses in this tournament, not just the one to Stieber....and Cox is a national champ. You might have a bit of an argument had Retherford only lost to Stieber, but with two losses and a 5th place finish, the "much tougher weight class" argument does not have much merit.

 

Are you serious? He had a good draw? Joey had the guy Clarke had in the quarterfinals in the 2nd round of the tournament. He then had to beat #7 Taylor, #6 Patterson, and then Cruz who just upset the #10 seed. Clark wrestled #9 Cox and then Delgado(who dance also had). Dropped down and wrestled #14 Klimara and unseeded Hall who upset the #15 seed. Clark had a better draw than Dance. I'll give you he had a tougher consolation semi finals match, but his path to being an AA was not harder than Dance's and it wasn't even close.

 

 

Unseeded Paul Petrov Bucknell Win 6-1

#1(2x NCAA Champion) Jesse Delgado Loss 6-1

Unseeded Conor Youtsey Michigan Fall 2:14

#7 seed Ryan Taylor Wisconsin Win 3-2

#6 (AA) seed Jared Patterson Oklahoma Win 6-5

Unseeded Darian Cruz Lehigh Win 4-1

#5 Dylan Peters UNI Win 10-8

#3 Nico Megaludis Penn State Loss 6-1

 

Unseeded Kory Mines Edinboro TF 18-2

#9 Tyler Cox Wyoming Win 8-5

#1(2x NCAA Champion) Jesse Delgado Loss 10-5

#14 Klimara Oklahoma State Win TB 7-6

Unseeded Earl Hall Iowa State Win 10-4

#3 Nico Megaludis Penn State Loss 5-2

#5 Dylan Peters UNI Win 8-1

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Dance had a good draw, and a much easier match in the consolation semis. It's just how the brackets ended up falling. Had Dance been on the other side of the consi bracket he would have gotten 5th, as he would have had Megaludis, and Clark would have gotten 4th. That being said, he earned 4th place, plain and simple. Cox earned his title and Retherford earned his 5th place finish. I really don't understand how someone could say Retherford is better than Cox. Retherford had two losses in this tournament, not just the one to Stieber....and Cox is a national champ. You might have a bit of an argument had Retherford only lost to Stieber, but with two losses and a 5th place finish, the "much tougher weight class" argument does not have much merit.

 

I am not sure Retherford is better than Cox but I wouldn't use the lost 2x in the tournament argument. Retherford lost to a 3x champion and a defending finalist. Cox had NOWHERE near that level of competition at 197. In fact there is quite a bit of data to argue in the opposite direction. For the ENTIRE tournament Cox wrestled zero 197 returning AA's. In fact the ONLY returning AA he wrestled was Heflin who did it 2x at 174. Retherford had to wrestle the returning 4th place finisher in the FIRST round.

 

Cox may go on to have better career finishes than Retherford, but to ignore the level of competition each faced is a mistake.

Agreed A wrestler is more than the result of his finishes. I don't remember the specific interview but Ben Askren once talked about this by saying he'd rather be a better wrestler than be a slightly lesser wrestler who wound up as a champion. Not to say Cox is a lesser wrestler than Retherford, but I would guess that they are fairly close in overall level. The fact that Retherford lost to an all time great in Stieber and lost a razor thin match to a returning finalist (Both things Cox did not have to deal with) does not make him any less of a wrestler than he was before the tournament began

 

 

 

This message was typed as sober as possible.

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Dance had a good draw, and a much easier match in the consolation semis. It's just how the brackets ended up falling. Had Dance been on the other side of the consi bracket he would have gotten 5th, as he would have had Megaludis, and Clark would have gotten 4th. That being said, he earned 4th place, plain and simple.

 

The bold portion seems to contradict your previous few sentences.

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This arguement could go on and on. Cox could only wrestle who advanced with him moving forward. IMO, I'm not sure it is fair to downplay him being a National Champion to Rutherford's lower placing. Any way you slice it, Cox is on track to become a 4x NC (without a redshirt). This was also a previous topic of discussion with Pat Smith getting a RS, etc. Yes, Retherford did lose to an all time great on the front side. Cox wasn't extended that same opportunity in March when he appeared to be at his best IMO. Thus, we don't know what Cox would have done if he were extended the same "opportunity" that Retherford had.

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First, to suggest that an 18 year old with less than a year in the college weight room beat 21/22/23 year old MEN who have had several years in a college weight training program because of strength is ridiculous. Cox is obviously on another level with technique if he can beat fully grown men and to suggest that he won by overpowering them is ridiculous.

 

Now, I do agree that he had a better draw at the NCAA tournament than Retherford did, and I do agree that there wasn't a Logan Steiber-caliber wrestler at 197, but again, to suggest that Retherfords skill is head and shoulders above Cox's is ridiculous. Let's not forget that while Retherford won a freestyle CADET world title, Cox beat the golden boy Snyder who won a freestyle JUNIOR world title.

 

So, let's say that Cox DID have a tougher wrestler in his weight class this year...somebody earlier said he wouldn't stand a chance against Kilgore or Wright from last year. Let's look at like opponents/how those wrestlers fared this year:

 

Common opponent of Morgan McIntosh (Penn State):

(2013) Nittany Lion Open - Quentin Wright won in sudden victory 1 over Morgan McIntosh (Penn State) 5-3

(2014) Southern Scuffle - J'Den Cox won by decision over Morgan McIntosh (Penn State) 2-0

(2014) Southern Scuffle - J'Den Cox won by decision over Morgan McIntosh (Penn State) 8-2

 

Common opponent of Mario Gonzalez (Illinois):

(2013) vs. Illinois - Quentin Wright won by decision over Mario Gonzalez (Illinois) 4-2

(2013) Midlands - Dustin Kilgore won by tech fall over Mario Gonzalez (Illinois) 19-4

(2014) NCAA Tournament - J'Den Cox won by decision over Mario Gonzalez (Illinois) 10-4

 

Common opponent of Phillip Wellington (Ohio):

(2013) vs. Ohio - Dustin Kilgore won by pin over Phillip Wellington (Ohio) 4:42

(2014) vs. Ohio - J'Den Cox lost by decision to Phillip Wellington (Ohio) 8-6

(2013) NCAA Tournament - Dustin Kilgore won by major decision over Phillip Wellington (Ohio) 10-2

(2014) MAC Tournament - J'Den Cox won by major decision over Phillip Wellington (Ohio) 10-1

 

Common opponent of Jackson Lewis (Central Michigan):

(2013) vs. Central Michigan - Dustin Kilgore won by pin Jackson Lewis (Central Michigan) 1:43

(2014) MAC Tournament - J'Den Cox won by tech fall over Jackson Lewis (Central Michigan) 21-6

 

Common opponent of Blake Rosholt (Oklahoma State):

(2013) vs. Oklahoma State - Dustin Kilgore won by major decision over Blake Rosholt (Oklahoma State) 12-3

(2014) Joe Parisi Open - J'Den Cox won by decision over Blake Rosholt (Oklahoma State) 7-3

(2014) Southern Scuffle - J'Den Cox won by decision over Blak Rosholt (Oklahoma State) 4-0

 

Quentin Wright other notables:

 

Southern Scuffle - Quentin Wright won by decision over Scott Schiller (Minnesota) 9-5

vs. Iowa - Quentin Wright won by decision over Nathan Burak (Iowa) 8-3

Big 10 - Quentin Wright won by decision over Scott Schiller (Minnesota) 5-3

NCAA Tournament - Quentin Wright won by pin over Scott Schiller (Minnesota) 2:49

NCAA Tournament - Quentin Wright won by decision over Dustin Kilgore (Kent State) 8-6

 

Dustin Kilgore other notables:

 

NCAA Tournament - Dustin Kilgore won by major decision over Nathan Burak (Iowa) 10-2

NCAA Tournament - Dustin Kilgore won by decision over Taylor Meeks (Oregon State) 8-6

 

2013 NCAA Tournament:

 

Taylor Meeks: 4-2, 4th Place

Scott Schiller: 5-2, 5th Place

Blake Rosholt: 3-3, 8th Place

Nathan Burak: 3-2, R12

Mario Gonzalez: 3-2, R12

Phillip Wellington: 2-2, DNP

Morgan McIntosh: N/A

 

2014 NCAA Tournament:

 

Scott Schiller: 5-1, 3rd Place

Morgan McIntosh: 5-2, 7th Place

Nathan Burak: 3-3, 8th Place

Mario Gonzalez: 3-2, R12

Taylor Meeks: 1-2, DNP

Phillip Wellington: 1-2, DNP

Blake Rosholt: 0-2, DNP

 

So really, you can argue that this years field was tougher than last years based on results. Anybody can have an opinion on how they think Cox would have fared against Kilgore/Wright, but based on results (and not opinion), you can't say that he's not in the same league as them. The Gonzalez head-to-head proves that Cox would be right there with Wright. Kilgore was more dominant during the season than at the NCAA tournament, but their like opponents scores don't differ all that much.

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Let me clarify that I am NOT saying Retherford is better than Cox. I do firmly believe they are neck and neck. I know we as a DI culture inevitably only look at championships. However, in this case I think that is a close minded mistake. I think Retherford taking 5th losing to Stieber, being the only one who beat him all year, and an OT match to Port is as impressive as Cox beating Gonzales, Atwood, Hartmann, Penny and Heflin(by a stalling pt.) to take 1st.

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Did Dance wrestle Clark or Gilman from Iowa? Dance is tough but not sure if he could beat either of those two.
Dance lost to Nico and Dellgado. He beat Taylor, Patterson & Peters. Not really sure why he couldn't have beat either Iowa guy. He is a stud and had better high school credentials than either Iowa guy. Unfortunately he is one more serious obstacle for any Iowa 125lber for the next 3 years.

I doubt if he had better credentials than either of Iowa's 125 lbers.

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Did Dance wrestle Clark or Gilman from Iowa? Dance is tough but not sure if he could beat either of those two.
Dance lost to Nico and Dellgado. He beat Taylor, Patterson & Peters. Not really sure why he couldn't have beat either Iowa guy. He is a stud and had better high school credentials than either Iowa guy. Unfortunately he is one more serious obstacle for any Iowa 125lber for the next 3 years.

I doubt if he had better credentials than either of Iowa's 125 lbers.

 

 

Here you go:

Clark- four-time Iowa state champion.. captured state and conference titles at 103 pounds in 2009... won state and conference titles at 112 pounds in 2010... won state and conference titles at 119 pounds in 2011... captured state and conference championships at 126 pounds in 2012... was a four-time MVP for Southeast Polk High School... holds school records for career wins and falls, and single-season record for wins.

 

Gilman- four-time Nebraska state champion... won the 103 pound title as a freshman, the 112 pound title as a sophomore, the 119 pound title as a junior, and the 132 pound title as a senior... led Omaha Skutt to the team championship three times (2009-10, 2012) and a runner-up finish in 2011... four-time River City all-conference honoree... 2009 NHSCA national champion and Cadet Freestyle All-American (103)... 2010 Cadet Freestyle national champion (119)... 2011 Junior Freestyle national chamion... 2011 FILA Cadet national champion and FILA Cadet World Team member.

 

Dance- Ranked as the No. 4 overall recruit in the country by FloWrestling, No. 6 by D1CollegeWrestling, No. 8 by InterMat and No. 11 by Amateur Wrestling News … The No. 1 wrestler in the country last year at 126 pounds as ranked by InterMat and No. 5 at 138 pounds by Amateur Wrestling News … Won the FILA Junior Freestyle Nationals in Wisconsin to qualify for the FILA Junior World Team Trials, where he won the wrestle-off for a spot on the National team and represented the U.S.A. at the Junior Worlds in Thailand … Also won National Freestyle Championships at the Cadet, Junior, FILA Cadet and FILA Junior levels … A four-time Virginia Group AA state champion … 2012 Beast of the East Champ, 2012 Walsh Ironman Champ, 2012 Super 32 Champ … As a freshman, won the title at 112 pounds and took first at the state meet as a sophomore at 119 pounds before winning the crown at 132 pounds as a junior … Won a title at 138 pounds his senior year … The Timesland Wrestler of the Year as named by The Roanoke Times.

 

Maybe Iowa needs a better PR person, but looks like Dance has quite a resume...

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Did Dance wrestle Clark or Gilman from Iowa? Dance is tough but not sure if he could beat either of those two.
Dance lost to Nico and Dellgado. He beat Taylor, Patterson & Peters. Not really sure why he couldn't have beat either Iowa guy. He is a stud and had better high school credentials than either Iowa guy. Unfortunately he is one more serious obstacle for any Iowa 125lber for the next 3 years.

I doubt if he had better credentials than either of Iowa's 125 lbers.

 

 

Joey went to every major HS & USA Wrestling tournament. Ironman, Beast of the East, Fargo, Super 32, FILA Jr World Team Trials. He hit em all. No knock on either Gilman or Clark but Weber & the Christiansburg boys travel and chase competition as much as anyone else in the game.

 

Rameses

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Let me clarify that I am NOT saying Retherford is better than Cox. I do firmly believe they are neck and neck. I know we as a DI culture inevitably only look at championships. However, in this case I think that is a close minded mistake. I think Retherford taking 5th losing to Stieber, being the only one who beat him all year, and an OT match to Port is as impressive as Cox beating Gonzales, Atwood, Hartmann, Penny and Heflin(by a stalling pt.) to take 1st.

 

I agree with you, and in fact was directing my comments more towards silver-medal and his comments that Cox "would not have touched a Kilgore or a Wright", which is simply asinine.

 

I still think Zain Retherford was the best pure true frosh in the country. Dance improved a lot as the season went along but he would never have been able to beat a wrestler the caliber of Stieber. Cox won a pedestrian 197 pound wt class. He would not have touched a Kilgore or a Wright. Retherford lost 3 matches--two to Stieber and one to Port. Stieber is on course to go down as one of the All Time greats. Port was a returning finalist. Let's not let NCAA finishes cloud the facts.

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Joey went to every major HS & USA Wrestling tournament. Ironman, Beast of the East, Fargo, Super 32, FILA Jr World Team Trials. He hit em all. No knock on either Gilman or Clark but Weber & the Christiansburg boys travel and chase competition as much as anyone else in the game.

 

Rameses

Not trying to get into a pissing but going to and winning about everything possible are two different things. Gilman/Clark were both Jr National Freestyle champs with Gilman making multiple age level world teams plus both 4X state champs not sure how Dance can top that?

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First off when speaking of Dance's good draw, I was only referring to who he had in the consolation semis, compared to who Clarke had. Second, when I say Dance earned 4th place, I am not contradicting myself. Let me elaborate my position. I am a firm believer that "you do not deserve anything until you have earned it".-Tom Brands. Simply put Dance got what he got (4th). If Clarke had wanted better than 5th then he should have beat Megaludis. Now I know that is a tall order, but at the end of the day he didn't get it done. The exact same thing happened to Rethorford. He had a tough draw in the consi semis, but he didn't get it done, so he got what he deserved.

Some of you say that where wrestlers place does not correlate to how good they are, but then you say that Cox had an easy draw. Is that not a contradiction? Maybe he had the toughest weight class, but the wrestlers he wrestled just had not put up the results that they were capable of. Do you see where I am going?

 

Cox: NCAA champion

Dance: 4th place AA

Retherford: 5th place AA

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Joey went to every major HS & USA Wrestling tournament. Ironman, Beast of the East, Fargo, Super 32, FILA Jr World Team Trials. He hit em all. No knock on either Gilman or Clark but Weber & the Christiansburg boys travel and chase competition as much as anyone else in the game.

 

Rameses

Not trying to get into a pissing but going to and winning about everything possible are two different things. Gilman/Clark were both Jr National Freestyle champs with Gilman making multiple age level world teams plus both 4X state champs not sure how Dance can top that?

 

 

Go back a couple of posts and you can see Dance has a pretty good Freestyle resume. Not sure why all this matters--in the past. If someone asks me who had a better year this year--Gilman, Clark or Dance---a no brainer it was Dance.

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This just in: Zain wrestled Logan Stieber.

I repeat Zain wrestled logan stieber.

 

I do agree Zain was the better wrestler but placed lower.

 

Take nothing away from Cox... he was the best 197. But IMO the skill level of 41s is much deeper and better than 97s. Cox didnt have to wrestle a Logan Stieber like wrestler. Thats life.

 

Cox IS the "Logan Stieber like wrestler"

 

How quickly we forget this kid has a win over a junior world freestyle champ not that long ago.

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This just in: Zain wrestled Logan Stieber.

I repeat Zain wrestled logan stieber.

 

I do agree Zain was the better wrestler but placed lower.

 

Take nothing away from Cox... he was the best 197. But IMO the skill level of 41s is much deeper and better than 97s. Cox didnt have to wrestle a Logan Stieber like wrestler. Thats life.

 

Cox IS the "Logan Stieber like wrestler"

 

How quickly we forget this kid has a win over a junior world freestyle champ not that long ago.

Technically, he wasn't a World JR freestyle champ when Cox beat him. Those two events occured over a year apart.

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This just in: Zain wrestled Logan Stieber.

I repeat Zain wrestled logan stieber.

 

I do agree Zain was the better wrestler but placed lower.

 

Take nothing away from Cox... he was the best 197. But IMO the skill level of 41s is much deeper and better than 97s. Cox didnt have to wrestle a Logan Stieber like wrestler. Thats life.

 

Cox IS the "Logan Stieber like wrestler"

 

How quickly we forget this kid has a win over a junior world freestyle champ not that long ago.

Technically, he wasn't a World JR freestyle champ when Cox beat him. Those two events occured over a year apart.

 

Ok, point taken, but I think we can all agree that Snyder was no punk when Cox beat him and that Snyder didn't just get good overnight. I'm just pointing out that Cox has been at a really high level for quite some time and that saying he can't compare to Retherford is ridiculous just because Retherford had an early season win over Stieber. I feel pretty confident predicting Cox will have a better college and international career than Retherford fwiw (just an opinion for anyone I just butt hurt).

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This just in: Zain wrestled Logan Stieber.

I repeat Zain wrestled logan stieber.

 

I do agree Zain was the better wrestler but placed lower.

 

Take nothing away from Cox... he was the best 197. But IMO the skill level of 41s is much deeper and better than 97s. Cox didnt have to wrestle a Logan Stieber like wrestler. Thats life.

 

Cox IS the "Logan Stieber like wrestler"

 

How quickly we forget this kid has a win over a junior world freestyle champ not that long ago.

Technically, he wasn't a World JR freestyle champ when Cox beat him. Those two events occured over a year apart.

 

Ok, point taken, but I think we can all agree that Snyder was no punk when Cox beat him and that Snyder didn't just get good overnight. I'm just pointing out that Cox has been at a really high level for quite some time and that saying he can't compare to Retherford is ridiculous just because Retherford had an early season win over Stieber. I feel pretty confident predicting Cox will have a better college and international career than Retherford fwiw (just an opinion for anyone I just butt hurt).

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