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Near-fall question


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#1 GranbyTroll

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:08 AM

In middle school wrestling, can the top wrestler score nearfall when the bottom wrestler tries to roll and stays in criteria for a two count?

Some elaboration: At our kids' state tournament this weekend, I thought my wrestler should have scored a 2pt nearfall when the bottom man tried to funk and stayed in criteria for a three count. After the match, the head official (a high school state tournament ref) told me that the top wrestler cannot score nearfall on a move that the bottom wrestler initiates.

In my, probably biased, interpretation of the scenario, the bottom wrestler tried to roll and stayed on his back for the count because he forced the roll, but also because my wrestler held him there. The ref on the match said that my wrestler on top did not do anything to hold to bottom wrestler on his back, therefor he couldn't score nearfall.

Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#2 Rakkasan91

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 06:22 AM

Here is the exact verbiage from the rules book (high school, since there is not a middle school book):

When the defensive wrestler places himself in a precarious position during an attempted escape or reversal, a near fall shall not be scored, unless the offensive wrestler has control and restrains the opponent in a pinning situation for two seconds.


It really boils down to judgement of the official. Did the official believe that the offensive wrestler was still in control and had the ability to restrain the defensive wrestler so he met near fall criteria? In your scenario, it does seem like the referee felt that your wrestler did not control and restrain his opponent.
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#3 GranbyTroll

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 07:26 AM

Here is the exact verbiage from the rules book (high school, since there is not a middle school book):

When the defensive wrestler places himself in a precarious position during an attempted escape or reversal, a near fall shall not be scored, unless the offensive wrestler has control and restrains the opponent in a pinning situation for two seconds.


It really boils down to judgement of the official. Did the official believe that the offensive wrestler was still in control and had the ability to restrain the defensive wrestler so he met near fall criteria? In your scenario, it does seem like the referee felt that your wrestler did not control and restrain his opponent.


Thanks for the quick response. I know that these scenarios can be hard to dissect when you only have my first hand account to go on. Bear with me here.

As I read the rule, it seems that the bottom wrestler initiating a move that ends up in near fall criteria will score points for the top wrestler if:

1) the offensive wrestler has control and restrains the opponent in a pinning situation for
2) two seconds

To me, it seems that if you're still "in control," and that the bottom wrestler stays in criteria for two seconds or more, then you have demonstrated control and restraint of the bottom wrestler. My wrestler still clearly had control (not a scenario that you could call loss of control if OOB, or potential reversal) and the bottom wrestler stayed in criteria for at least a three count. Am I missing something? Does the ref need to interpret what "control and restraint" means? It seems obvious to me.

Iowa fans are still arrogant; it's just that their team isn't as good.


#4 Rakkasan91

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

Always hard to say exactly without watching video. If I see a kid execute a granby, I'm not doing a count. However, if I feel the offensive wrestler stopped the move and is holding the defensive wrestler, I'll pickup a count. In my experience, it is almost like a reaction time thing. I'll let the bottom wrestler try a move like that and expose himself, but if the offensive wrestler keeps him from being successful, I'll start looking to see if the defensive wrestler is in near fall or in criteria for 2 seconds.
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#5 Rakkasan91

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

Always hard to say exactly without watching video. If I see a kid execute a granby, I'm not doing a count. However, if I feel the offensive wrestler stopped the move and is holding the defensive wrestler, I'll pickup a count. In my experience, it is almost like a reaction time thing. I'll let the bottom wrestler try a move like that and expose himself, but if the offensive wrestler keeps him from being successful, I'll start looking to see if the defensive wrestler is in near fall or in criteria for 2 seconds.
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#6 conanNY

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 05:46 AM

Here is the exact verbiage from the rules book (high school, since there is not a middle school book):

When the defensive wrestler places himself in a precarious position during an attempted escape or reversal, a near fall shall not be scored, unless the offensive wrestler has control and restrains the opponent in a pinning situation for two seconds.


It really boils down to judgement of the official. Did the official believe that the offensive wrestler was still in control and had the ability to restrain the defensive wrestler so he met near fall criteria? In your scenario, it does seem like the referee felt that your wrestler did not control and restrain his opponent.


Thanks for the quick response. I know that these scenarios can be hard to dissect when you only have my first hand account to go on. Bear with me here.

As I read the rule, it seems that the bottom wrestler initiating a move that ends up in near fall criteria will score points for the top wrestler if:

1) the offensive wrestler has control and restrains the opponent in a pinning situation for
2) two seconds

To me, it seems that if you're still "in control," and that the bottom wrestler stays in criteria for two seconds or more, then you have demonstrated control and restraint of the bottom wrestler. My wrestler still clearly had control (not a scenario that you could call loss of control if OOB, or potential reversal) and the bottom wrestler stayed in criteria for at least a three count. Am I missing something? Does the ref need to interpret what "control and restraint" means? It seems obvious to me.


Just ran across this post...
I think Rakkasan91 gave you the book description of the situation... which is where explaining situations like this start.
It is important to realize two things here...

1. that the situation (the NF) was not created by the TOP wrestler, but in fact was created by the defensive wrestlers - let's call it - 'Offensive action'. in other words, he put him self in NF criteria, in an effort to escape or get a reversal. The Top wrestler really had nothing to do with creating the NF.

2. Does the TOP wrestler demonstrate ANY type of restraining power (holding the bottom wrester in the NF criteria) JUST Being in control, does NOT demonstrate restraining.

... what the hell does that mean.... ??

OK..
here's a perfect example..
From a referee's position (top/bottom). The bottom wresters begins to execute a switch. A very SLOW switch. In his effort to complete the switch, his back moves to and through NF criteria (4" or less off the mat).
The top wrestler is attempting to counter the switch by 'hipping into him' .
This action is all initiated by the BOTTOM wrestler. The top wrestler IS in control, BUT he is NOT demonstrating ANY restraining (holding the bottom wrestler in the NF criteria). Basically the top wrestler is trying to 'hip in' to maintain his top position.
This can literally go on for 20-30 or more seconds... !!
The reality is that the Bottom wrestler can 'abort' his switch at any time, and 'bail out' to his base...
So, because all of this action was created by the bottom wrestler in an effort to score an escape/reversal, NO NF count shall be started...

There is you answer...


BUT..
LETS expand on that same situation... !!
What if the Bottom wrestler NOW attempts to abort his Switch...
BUT in his effort the TOP wrestler NOW is able to reach across and grab (whatever), and NOW hold the bottom wrestler in that NF criteria position...
This is were the 'officials judgment' comes in.
It is usually quite clear when the Top wrestler begins to demonstrate holding or restraining of the Bottom wrestler... and THEN the count can begin... !!
Typically you will see the official give a VERY LOUD "ONE" count intended to be heard by the Bottom wrestler... at that point if the Bottom wrestler is able to 'bail out' (not being restrained by the Top wrestler) he will do so... !!!
If he CAN'T... he is MORE than likely NOW being retrained by the Top wrestler.. an thus, the ensuing count of "TWO" will earn the top wrestler NF points...


There are a good half dozen or so situations where this happens.. Gramby rolls, petersons, scrambles, etc..
so.. you've got to look for that "restraining" ... not just being the top guy, in control...

Didn't see the actual situation you discussed... but this is how you would determine a NF when this happens
Hope that helps...

#7 tommytechnique

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Posted 19 February 2015 - 03:14 AM

Does this rule/situation apply to college as well?



#8 conanNY

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Posted 24 February 2015 - 05:39 AM

Does this rule/situation apply to college as well?

Absolutly ....

 

That being said....

In the quest for 'more scoring', 'more excitement' It's sometimes disregarded, and you'll see points awarded anyway.

This has been a rule/interpretation for over 30 years....

Yet... I can't beleive how many times I've had to re-explain this over and over again...

(Yup - even to my own college coach)






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