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Yazdani's illegal foot stomping single

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To my understanding, a "chancery hold" is when you wrap your arm around the head, like you would in a front headlock. If that's true, then I have no idea what "with one or two hands in any direction whatsoever" means. It cannot mean a cowcatcher/mixer hold, because everyone does those.

 

The cowcatcher/mixer hold is the chancery hold, and it can be illegal even if everyone does them -- because if no ref ever calls it, then how would you know? That's my point.

 

My understanding is that a chancery is a front headlock hold around the chin plus an underhook. Again, what does this rule mean? I bring this up on the boards occasionally -- I've never gotten an answer.

 

If I had to guess, any action that torques the neck, like a chin whip, is illegal? So is a cowcatcher illegal?

The chancery rule is another rule that definitely needs to be clarified. As shown in this thread it isn't even clear what that move is.

I've always known a chancery as putting your arm around your opponent's head and gripping their chin. Position of other hand/arm determines the move not the chancery hold.

Example: left arm around head, left hand gripping chin. Position of right hand/arm can be in an underhook, gripping opponent's upper arm, not touching opponent, and my left arm hold is still a chancery.

 

By the wording "Chancery hold with one or two hands in any direction whatsoever" maybe the direction part means you can't twist your hand(s) when you have the hold, you aren't allowed to grab the chin & twist.

 

I have never encountered more ambiguous rules for a sport than FILA's. Are they writing a murky legal contract or the rules for a sport?

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To my understanding, a "chancery hold" is when you wrap your arm around the head, like you would in a front headlock. If that's true, then I have no idea what "with one or two hands in any direction whatsoever" means. It cannot mean a cowcatcher/mixer hold, because everyone does those.

 

The cowcatcher/mixer hold is the chancery hold, and it can be illegal even if everyone does them -- because if no ref ever calls it, then how would you know? That's my point.

 

My understanding is that a chancery is a front headlock hold around the chin plus an underhook. Again, what does this rule mean? I bring this up on the boards occasionally -- I've never gotten an answer.

 

If I had to guess, any action that torques the neck, like a chin whip, is illegal? So is a cowcatcher illegal?

The chancery rule is another rule that definitely needs to be clarified. As shown in this thread it isn't even clear what that move is.

I've always known a chancery as putting your arm around your opponent's head and gripping their chin. Position of other hand/arm determines the move not the chancery hold.

Example: left arm around head, left hand gripping chin. Position of right hand/arm can be in an underhook, gripping opponent's upper arm, not touching opponent, and my left arm hold is still a chancery.

 

By the wording "Chancery hold with one or two hands in any direction whatsoever" maybe the direction part means you can't twist your hand(s) when you have the hold, you aren't allowed to grab the chin & twist.

 

I have never encountered more ambiguous rules for a sport than FILA's. Are they writing a murky legal contract or the rules for a sport?

 

 

If a chancery is putting your arm around your opponent's head and gripping the chin, this would suggest that a front headlock is illegal if you don't lock your hands, especially if you hit a gator roll out of it.

 

Since I'm pretty sure that happens all the time, that can't be it. I think. (Now that I think about it -- what's a two handed chancery? A front headlock with your hands locked?)

 

Not sure. But I hope somebody can clear it up.

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With regards to the foot stepping, it's definitely illegal, but rarely called because almost nobody uses it as a setup, and when they do, it occurs so quickly nobody really sees it happening. I don't think the rule has anything to do with injury, but rather they (whoever wrote the rules) considered it "poor form" to step on a guy's foot as a setup. So basically just dirty wrestling. Dave Schultz used to do it, but he also knew it was illegal and would laugh about it. As mentioned by a previous poster, he called it his "radar" because he knew that if he was close enough to the opponent to step on his foot, he would be close enough to reach out and snatch the single before his opponent knew what was happening. Nobody would complain because nobody could detect that it was intentional. As far as the opponent was concerned, all he knew was his leg just got grabbed. It was very subtle, but definitely designed to get away with it. Dave Schultz was all about using illegal technique if he could get away with it. His front headlock, along with Arsen Fadzaev's, was designed purely as a choke, which is clearly illegal. Everyone talks about Dave being a perfect technician, and he was. But many of his perfect techniques were designed to score by making something so painful that an opponent couldn't resist, or choking a guy out so he couldn't resist, or in the case of the radar, stopping his leg from moving so he could snatch it.

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With regards to the foot stepping, it's definitely illegal, but rarely called because almost nobody uses it as a setup, and when they do, it occurs so quickly nobody really sees it happening. I don't think the rule has anything to do with injury, but rather they (whoever wrote the rules) considered it "poor form" to step on a guy's foot as a setup. So basically just dirty wrestling. Dave Schultz used to do it, but he also knew it was illegal and would laugh about it. As mentioned by a previous poster, he called it his "radar" because he knew that if he was close enough to the opponent to step on his foot, he would be close enough to reach out and snatch the single before his opponent knew what was happening. Nobody would complain because nobody could detect that it was intentional. As far as the opponent was concerned, all he knew was his leg just got grabbed. It was very subtle, but definitely designed to get away with it. Dave Schultz was all about using illegal technique if he could get away with it. His front headlock, along with Arsen Fadzaev's, was designed purely as a choke, which is clearly illegal. Everyone talks about Dave being a perfect technician, and he was. But many of his perfect techniques were designed to score by making something so painful that an opponent couldn't resist, or choking a guy out so he couldn't resist, or in the case of the radar, stopping his leg from moving so he could snatch it.

 

 

Fadzaev's headlock was not designed purely as a choke.

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The cowcatcher/mixer hold is the chancery hold, and it can be illegal even if everyone does them -- because if no ref ever calls it, then how would you know? That's my point.

 

My understanding is that a chancery is a front headlock hold around the chin plus an underhook. Again, what does this rule mean? I bring this up on the boards occasionally -- I've never gotten an answer.

 

If I had to guess, any action that torques the neck, like a chin whip, is illegal? So is a cowcatcher illegal?

The chancery rule is another rule that definitely needs to be clarified. As shown in this thread it isn't even clear what that move is.

I've always known a chancery as putting your arm around your opponent's head and gripping their chin. Position of other hand/arm determines the move not the chancery hold.

Example: left arm around head, left hand gripping chin. Position of right hand/arm can be in an underhook, gripping opponent's upper arm, not touching opponent, and my left arm hold is still a chancery.

 

By the wording "Chancery hold with one or two hands in any direction whatsoever" maybe the direction part means you can't twist your hand(s) when you have the hold, you aren't allowed to grab the chin & twist.

 

I have never encountered more ambiguous rules for a sport than FILA's. Are they writing a murky legal contract or the rules for a sport?

 

 

If a chancery is putting your arm around your opponent's head and gripping the chin, this would suggest that a front headlock is illegal if you don't lock your hands, especially if you hit a gator roll out of it.

 

Since I'm pretty sure that happens all the time, that can't be it. I think. (Now that I think about it -- what's a two handed chancery? A front headlock with your hands locked?)

 

Not sure. But I hope somebody can clear it up.

That is why this isn't a clear topic.

The only time I've ever really heard the term "chancery hold" used is in reference to catch wrestling or pro wrestling...so going by that, maybe the rule means you can't lock around the chin/head with both arms (but why not just call that an illegal headlock)?

So, maybe that is what they are talking about, the pro wrestling headlock in which you're locked around opponent's head/neck and no arm?

In the UFC when Jon Jones choked out Machida, I did read a couple of articles that referred to that is a head chancery.

 

I've looked for a real answer on this and all I find are old catch wrestling photos & examples, pro wrestling stuff and other people arguing/asking what it is.

 

I just went through the first few pages of a google search, and results are a mixture of the above.

 

There was one video of a high school wrestler showing a head chancery move and it is what I've known as cement job, cow catcher, 4 other names...And a catch wrestling page calls it a forward chancery and bar hold.

 

 

 

And back in 1915, some guy knocked himself out while trying to secure a chancery hold. Wonder if that match was supposed to be fixed and his clumsiness messed that up.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5B858DF1D3

 

Found another article about a college tournament at Columbia circa 1910, chancery hold and chancery & bar hold are mentioned as pinning moves. "Arm and headlock" is another one.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5B808DF1D3

 

 

I found a pdf of How to Wrestle based on Frank Gotch's work (written in 1934) and the chancery is similarly described as I previously described it

"chancery means having the head caught and securely held under the arm of an opponent."

Chancery from the front is called a forward chancery & the chancery and bar hold is mentioned again.

http://www.hroarr.com/manuals/wrestling ... _Gotch.pdf

pages 38-39 of the document.

 

 

This really needs to be updated since the only references seem to be from the early 1900s, pro wrestling and random catch wrestling web pages.

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Whether the foot step is illegal or legal, Yazdani is well scouted now, at least on that move.

 

I'm not the best technician, but I'd love to see wrestlers start countering Yazdani's foot step single. How about an over the head launch ala Jared Frayer, or some sort of upper body throw right to Yazdani's back when he tries to hit it.

 

Probably easier said than done, especially considering Yazdani's stature. But I think a counter/throw off that foot step is definitely possible now that everyone knows it's coming. Yazdani deserves it.

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Whether the foot step is illegal or legal, Yazdani is well scouted now, at least on that move.

 

I'm not the best technician, but I'd love to see wrestlers start countering Yazdani's foot step single. How about an over the head launch ala Jared Frayer, or some sort of upper body throw right to Yazdani's back when he tries to hit it.

 

Probably easier said than done, especially considering Yazdani's stature. But I think a counter/throw off that foot step is definitely possible now that everyone knows it's coming. Yazdani deserves it.

 

I'll guess that it was already well scouted.

Check out 1:43 of his match with Varner:

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The rule is not clearly written, but i'll assume based on the way it's written that what Yazdani is doing is indeed illegal. However, I don't agree with the rule. I understand trying to protect wrestlers from getting their foot broken from a stomp, but why is stepping on a foot as lightly as Yazdani does to temporarily immobilize an opponent illegal? There's no danger to the other wrestler, and what he's doing is not too different from a foot block or foot sweep in function.

 

It takes a lot of skill to shoot in on someone and immobilize his foot the way Yazdani does. I think it should be legal.

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The rule is not clearly written, but i'll assume based on the way it's written that what Yazdani is doing is indeed illegal. However, I don't agree with the rule. I understand trying to protect wrestlers from getting their foot broken from a stomp, but why is stepping on a foot as lightly as Yazdani does to temporarily immobilize an opponent illegal? There's no danger to the other wrestler, and what he's doing is not too different from a foot block or foot sweep in function.

 

It takes a lot of skill to shoot in on someone and immobilize his foot the way Yazdani does. I think it should be legal.

 

That's fine, but let's put someone like Jared Frayer in front of the class on this one and teach a nice counter/throw to the Yazdani foot step.

 

No disrespect to Coach Zeke and the staff. Just armchair quarterbacking here as a fan of all you guys.

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With regards to the foot stepping, it's definitely illegal, but rarely called because almost nobody uses it as a setup, and when they do, it occurs so quickly nobody really sees it happening. I don't think the rule has anything to do with injury, but rather they (whoever wrote the rules) considered it "poor form" to step on a guy's foot as a setup. So basically just dirty wrestling. Dave Schultz used to do it, but he also knew it was illegal and would laugh about it. As mentioned by a previous poster, he called it his "radar" because he knew that if he was close enough to the opponent to step on his foot, he would be close enough to reach out and snatch the single before his opponent knew what was happening. Nobody would complain because nobody could detect that it was intentional. As far as the opponent was concerned, all he knew was his leg just got grabbed. It was very subtle, but definitely designed to get away with it. Dave Schultz was all about using illegal technique if he could get away with it. His front headlock, along with Arsen Fadzaev's, was designed purely as a choke, which is clearly illegal. Everyone talks about Dave being a perfect technician, and he was. But many of his perfect techniques were designed to score by making something so painful that an opponent couldn't resist, or choking a guy out so he couldn't resist, or in the case of the radar, stopping his leg from moving so he could snatch it.

 

 

Fadzaev's headlock was not designed purely as a choke.

Depends on what you mean by "purely". He could still score if he didn't get choking pressure, sure, but the goal was definitely to choke (blood choke, not throat). Not necessarily choke-out completely, but definitely to get a second or two of blocking the carotid artery to daze the opponent a bit and make the go-behind easy. There are many example of videos online of Fadzaev choking guys (Kenny Monday taps out), and anyone that wrestled or trained with Dave Schultz knows he was trying to choke. He even said that was the goal to anyone he was showing the move to. All it takes is a second or two of a blood choke to cause a guy to panic and freeze and then Dave was spinning behind.

 

The front headlock is one of the few moves where perfect technique can create an illegal move, which is why it can almost never be called illegal. It's not like an arm bar where the legality is based on the angle of the forearm and position of the hand on the back. The difference between a perfectly legal and illegal (according to the rules) headlock is only defined by whether the opponent is being choked, which is impossible to tell unless it's blatant. And the beauty of the Fadzaev and Schultz front headlock was that it was so fast that by the time anyone could complain about a choke, they were already spinning behind (with a few exceptions like the match when Monday taps out, or the match where Fadzaev completely chokes a guy out and then slaps him awake before continuing).

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I know all about Fadzaev dscn471. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's inaccurate to say that his headlock was designed purely as a choke.

OK, well the most accurate way I can say it is that the move is designed to score points, and it accomplished this in large part through a choke. If you feel that is inaccurate, I'd love to hear why, but you'll need to say a bit more than simply I'm not accurate.

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Guys it basically comes down to this. Unless Yazdani is an idiot he obviously knows he is a cheater. Around half of his offensive take downs are generated from this move. He, Burroughs and Gatsalov are considered by most to be the greatest in our sport today. And in a no weight class tourney Yazdani wins. So he gets extra scrutiny for this over if he was some 2nd tier guy. We are ranting here about it because it is so blatant that it is comical and we all never saw it until now. Yazdani is a great actor and manipulator. I hope the us team focuses on this with Varner!

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I contacted Tom Clark, one of the head refs in the US.

 

Any stepping on the foot is illegal (not just stomping). First offense is a warning, next offense is a caution + 1 penalty point for the opponent.

 

Pushing is passivity.

 

Double collar tie is illegal, football tie is legal.

 

Chancery is interpreted as 3/4 Nelson, so all front headlock/gator roll/cement mixer combinations are legal.

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Pushing is passivity.

 

Mind = blown. Reward the push out, but only if you don't push your opponent with both arms... and pushing is also passivity?

 

Double collar tie is illegal, football tie is legal.

 

Seems like it should be the other way around, IMO. I volunteer coach HS wrestling, and use both ties a lot. Double collar is for when I need to wear down someone in remarkably better shape (read: everyone older than 14). Football tie is for when I need to choke someone out for taking me down earlier. Don't go across the wind pipe, just stick the blade of your thumb in their carotid and wait.

 

Chancery is interpreted as 3/4 Nelson, so all front headlock/gator roll/cement mixer combinations are legal.

 

That's not what "chancery" means. I want rules that make sense, but at this point, I'd settle for rules with at least more "modern" language.

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Chancery is interpreted as 3/4 Nelson

This is fascinating. I've always known the 3/4 nelson was illegal in freestyle, but never could figure out where in the rules it was referred to. It's also kind of silly for the move to be illegal at all. But it's a joke that such a specific move is referred to as "chancery" with no explanation in the rules, isn't it? No wonder people are confused.

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Chancery is interpreted as 3/4 Nelson

This is fascinating. I've always known the 3/4 nelson was illegal in freestyle, but never could figure out where in the rules it was referred to. It's also kind of silly for the move to be illegal at all. But it's a joke that such a specific move is referred to as "chancery" with no explanation in the rules, isn't it? No wonder people are confused.

 

At least it's "more dangerous" than the double collar tie.

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I volunteer coach HS wrestling, and use both ties a lot. Double collar is for when I need to wear down someone in remarkably better shape (read: everyone older than 14). Football tie is for when I need to choke someone out for taking me down earlier. Don't go across the wind pipe, just stick the blade of your thumb in their carotid and wait.

Wait... what?

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Chancery is interpreted as 3/4 Nelson

This is fascinating. I've always known the 3/4 nelson was illegal in freestyle, but never could figure out where in the rules it was referred to. It's also kind of silly for the move to be illegal at all. But it's a joke that such a specific move is referred to as "chancery" with no explanation in the rules, isn't it? No wonder people are confused.

 

Yes, this is a little bizarre.

 

Here are some pictures of the "chancery" from catch wrestling. Looks like a neck crank with a crossfire, generally from the front headlock position.

 

http://junfanjkdengland.tripod.com/catch/id15.html

http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition ... sson02.htm

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/ ... on/?page=1

 

The rulebook needs a revised set of video interpretations -- ideally on the FILA website.

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