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Flying-Tiger

Team Championship Changes?

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The best way to see if one team is better than another is to go head to head via a dual. Those that traditionally have strong tournament teams and recruit that way, DO NOT WANT A CHANGE.

 

I remember when the Bonomo's wrestled for Bloomsburg, Bloom finished in the top six several times. However, during that time, there were at least 20 teams that a could beat Bloomsburg in a dual meet.

 

I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.

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The best way to see if one team is better than another is to go head to head via a dual. Those that traditionally have strong tournament teams and recruit that way, DO NOT WANT A CHANGE.

 

I remember when the Bonomo's wrestled for Bloomsburg, Bloom finished in the top six several times. However, during that time, there were at least 20 teams that a could beat Bloomsburg in a dual meet.

 

I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.

 

 

Of course, that depends - when it comes to wrestling, which is primarily an individual sport before it is a team sport, what exactly are you trying to measure when it comes to team achievement?

 

I think that is our biggest problem in this debate. There is no clearly defined measure for "team strength."

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The best way to see if one team is better than another is to go head to head via a dual.

That's your opinion. Others share it, but it's not universally held.

 

I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.

What about last year where it wasn't sealed up until Quentin Wright won the 197 lbs. final with an upset of the undefeated top seed?

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I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.

What about last year where it wasn't sealed up until Quentin Wright won the 197 lbs. final with an upset of the undefeated top seed?

 

Cant't believe I forgot last year's race. But most years the team race is decided before the finals. (At least the ones I remember.). :)

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Skikayaker?

 

shuck, why do you all of a sudden think I post under a different handle? In all the years I have posted here, it's been as FT only. If you look at other forums, I post under the same name or one very similar as well. Time to remove the tinfoil hat.

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The best way to see if one team is better than another is to go head to head via a dual. Those that traditionally have strong tournament teams and recruit that way, DO NOT WANT A CHANGE.

 

I remember when the Bonomo's wrestled for Bloomsburg, Bloom finished in the top six several times. However, during that time, there were at least 20 teams that a could beat Bloomsburg in a dual meet.

 

I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.

This is a subjective observation supported with only opinion.

Simply due to many more data points the current model of identifying the best team is many more times accurate. A dual tournament compares two teams based on 10, 1 or 0, data points. The current model compares them all as they compete against each other as well as others.

 

You can say you believe you would like better a dual tournament as far as deciding the team champion, and that statement on the subject is probably accurate.

 

What you can not say, at least without being full of baloney, is a dual format is better than the traditional format at identifying the best team.

 

The Bloomsburg example you use has nothing to do with the conversation. Bloomsburg never threatened to win the team title. We are talking about deciding the national champion. The best team.

 

As far as depending on how you are built playing a huge role in determining your preference, that is just baloney. An underfunded program with a handful of excellent wrestlers who can finish high will allow such a team to place high (top-10), but they aren't winning the title in either format.

 

Teams capable of winning in either format, are fully funded. Penn State, Minnesota, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Cornell and others are perfectly capable of putting together a team capable of winning a dual tournament or an individual tournament with a team champion. This year, as well as the previous 3 Penn State had the best team.

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The best way to see if one team is better than another is to go head to head via a dual. Those that traditionally have strong tournament teams and recruit that way, DO NOT WANT A CHANGE.

 

I remember when the Bonomo's wrestled for Bloomsburg, Bloom finished in the top six several times. However, during that time, there were at least 20 teams that a could beat Bloomsburg in a dual meet.

 

I will say that this is the first year in a long time that team scoring in the tournament had lots of excitement.[/i

This is a subjective observation supported with only opinion.

Simply due to many more data points the current model of identifying the best team is many more times accurate. A dual tournament compares two teams based on 10, 1 or 0, data points. The current model compares them all as they compete against each other as well as others.

 

You can say you believe you would like better a dual tournament as far as deciding the team champion, and that statement on the subject is probably accurate.

 

What you can not say, at least without being full of baloney, is a dual format is better than the traditional format at identifying the best team.

 

The Bloomsburg example you use has nothing to do with the conversation. Bloomsburg never threatened to win the team title. We are talking about deciding the national champion. The best team.

 

As far as depending on how you are built playing a huge role in determining your preference, that is just baloney. An underfunded program with a handful of excellent wrestlers who can finish high will allow such a team to place high (top-10), but they aren't winning the title in either format.

 

Teams capable of winning in either format, are fully funded. Penn State, Minnesota, Iowa, Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Cornell and others are perfectly capable of putting together a team capable of winning a dual tournament or an individual tournament with a team champion. This year, as well as the previous 3 Penn State had the best team.

 

 

You are correct I only offer an opinion. Of course, sounds to me your opinion is biased based upon your team alliegance. Interestingly I to am a PSU fan. :). Anyway, I have always found it frustrating that a team can win a national championship when a wrestler from another school knocks off someone from the team contesting against one of the contenders...like when the NC State heavyweight beat the fellow from Minnesota. Although my Bloomsburg example doesn't speak to winning a national title, it does support my contention that tournament competition is flawed in ranking schools. It would be great if there was a true dual meet national tournament each year that carried more prestige than it does now. Then there could be some great data to compare tournament vs. dual competition.

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As a fan, I think duals should determine the team championship. However, every single current and former D1 wrestler that I talk to feels that wrestling is an individual sport, and winning their match trumps anything that may or may not happen in any team competition. Team championships may be a nice consolation prize, but nothing beats winning a title as an individual. How such team championships are determined is mostly irrelevant.

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There are states that have both team and individual at the HS level. It seems to work for them? I know Wisconsin fought it for a long time, but it seems to be good now? The individual tournament still has the biggest fan support, but the team tournament is the true champion. Team score is not kept (or at least recognized) at the individual tournament. Just for example.

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Semi-recently my state tried that "only crowning individual champs at the state tournament" method but it didn't work and nobody liked it. People just asked about who won the "unofficial" team championships instead of the dual championships. After a few years they went back to the system that worked for 50+ years.

 

Wrestling is an individual sport with wrestlers competing under the banner of their schools. It is always going to be more accurate to determine the best wrestlers/team of wrestlers by putting them ALL in one weight class and letting them duke it out.

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Easy fix.

 

If the tournament is meant as an individual tournament, then let it be so. Top 8 get All American status. Do away with the team scoring.

 

Team title is determined by dual competition.

 

This allows both a team title and individual titles to be determined, and the scoring system used for the current tournament (which, in my opinion is flawed - way too heavily weighted for the highest placements) has no bearing on declaring a team title.

 

Award still given out to the top 4 teams, as well as to All Americans. 2 great tournaments, both with a great deal at stake.

 

You are welcome!

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Easy fix.

 

If the tournament is meant as an individual tournament, then let it be so. Top 8 get All American status. Do away with the team scoring.

 

Team title is determined by dual competition.

 

This allows both a team title and individual titles to be determined, and the scoring system used for the current tournament (which, in my opinion is flawed - way too heavily weighted for the highest placements) has no bearing on declaring a team title.

 

Award still given out to the top 4 teams, as well as to All Americans. 2 great tournaments, both with a great deal at stake.

 

You are welcome!

 

This would be ideal. But the NCAA won't allow two national championships for one sport. Hence, the clusterfck we keep debating over and over again.

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Easy fix.

 

If the tournament is meant as an individual tournament, then let it be so. Top 8 get All American status. Do away with the team scoring.

 

Team title is determined by dual competition.

 

This allows both a team title and individual titles to be determined, and the scoring system used for the current tournament (which, in my opinion is flawed - way too heavily weighted for the highest placements) has no bearing on declaring a team title.

 

Award still given out to the top 4 teams, as well as to All Americans. 2 great tournaments, both with a great deal at stake.

 

You are welcome!

 

This would be ideal. But the NCAA won't allow two national championships for one sport. Hence, the clusterfck we keep debating over and over again.

 

The NCAA WILL allow the scenario you quoted. One crowns individuals and one crowns a team.

 

What the NCAA won't allow is two team champions.

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If the NCAA won't allow two team national champions, then make one of the tournaments the "Dan Gable Memorial National Tournament." Sure, the NCAA won't fund the DGMNT, but how much money did the NCAA give to the 2014 tournament?

 

The NCAA gave a tone of money to the 2014 NCAA tournament including all expenses. Yes, the event turns a profit but the NCAA was putting a lot of money into the event before it was profitable.

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Easy fix.

 

If the tournament is meant as an individual tournament, then let it be so. Top 8 get All American status. Do away with the team scoring.

 

Team title is determined by dual competition.

 

This allows both a team title and individual titles to be determined, and the scoring system used for the current tournament (which, in my opinion is flawed - way too heavily weighted for the highest placements) has no bearing on declaring a team title.

 

Award still given out to the top 4 teams, as well as to All Americans. 2 great tournaments, both with a great deal at stake.

 

You are welcome!

 

This would be ideal. But the NCAA won't allow two national championships for one sport. Hence, the clusterfck we keep debating over and over again.

 

The NCAA WILL allow the scenario you quoted. One crowns individuals and one crowns a team.

 

What the NCAA won't allow is two team champions.

 

It wasn't clear to me that that's what he said. "Award still given out to the top 4 teams, as well as to All Americans." That's the part I didn't think was possible, and still don't.

 

Reading it again, maybe he intended it exactly as you interpreted it, but that last comment confuses me then.

 

Either way, I agree with the spirit of what he was saying, which is why I called it "ideal."

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And you started your post saying someone else's comment was a subjective observation based on opinion.

 

Yes I did, and it is.

 

My pointing out that from a math standpoint the current model is more accurate at identifying the best team is not a subjective comment.

 

My alluding to only fully funded teams are going to win nationally competed for team titles could be labeled a subjective statement, but if you feel that to be true please tell me which non-fully funded program has won the Division I team title in the past say 30 years or so.

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I thought the reason for the tournament was suppose to be because it allows the small schools to be in the top 20 and now you people say it is only about the champions?

 

I am, and have talked about ONLY, identifying the best team. You can frame your point of view in any context you choose. If want to talk about top 20, frame it. If you want to talk about identifying the best team - frame it. I most certainly have never told you what your point needs to be.

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And you started your post saying someone else's comment was a subjective observation based on opinion.

 

Yes I did, and it is.

 

My pointing out that from a math standpoint the current model is more accurate at identifying the best team is not a subjective comment.

 

My alluding to only fully funded teams are going to win nationally competed for team titles could be labeled a subjective statement, but if you feel that to be true please tell me which non-fully funded program has won the Division I team title in the past say 30 years or so.

 

The thread topic is "Team Championship Changes." So I was picking on your comment "This year, as well as the previous 3 Penn State had the best team." True, they won the national championship with the scoring system that exists today. But 10 of 10 coaches voted Minnesota the best overall dual-oriented team this year. Discussions are underway to possibly change the method of determining "the best team."

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I agree with the poster who said the scoring is too top heavy. Officially it's 16-12-10-9-7-6-4-3. You can't have a place without advancing so the actual values are (not including bonus) 20-16-13.5-12.5-10-9-6.5-5.5. In comparing first to eighth (20/5.5) the ratio is over 3x, and first to fifth is double (20/10); yet a champ generally won't pin an eighth or fifth. But in a dual the most you can get is a pin = 2x a win by decision, 6/3.

 

Now consider that a tournament pin + advancement in championship bracket is triple a decision, 2 + 1 = 3 and in consolation it's quintuple a decision, 2 +.5 = {.5 +.5 +.5 +.5 +.5}. That's 35 minutes of wrestling equal to less than 7 minutes or ZERO by medical forfeit. If anything, shouldn't a pin be worth more in championship bracket? How would you like to see a dual meet tournament with a pin worth 15 in consolation and 9 in championship bracket...upside down? inconsistent? That's exactly what the NCAA tournament is now. But it's invisible because fans don't think about it and it's too complex to bother with. Everyone assumes the scoring to be well thought out and generally ok.

 

Why is an advancement cut in half for consolation but not bonus? Why do we have a 3 tier pin system:

double weight in duals, triple and quintuple for tournaments. A home run is always 1; a grand slam 4, a touchdown 6, etc. Is it time for wrestling to uncomplicate and straighten out its scoring? standardize advancement, bonus and placement? And shouldn't the overall weight of tournament scoring resemble dual meet scoring more, i.e., not so top heavy?

 

The highest awards of the NCAA are the team trophies, not the Gorrarian or the O.W. or gold medal. Shouldn't the scoring be weighted to protect everything that goes into a team trophy: coaching, recruiting, individual improvement, academics, citizenship? Only a small handful of teams can produce an AA majority every year. This is not easy. It takes months and even years to get 5+ guys to penetrate all the many prelim rounds to get a place on the podium.

 

I'll leave with a very hypothetical example that I hope makes my point. Who would you bet $1000 on in a dual meet-- team A with 3 returning gold medalists and 7 NQ; OR Team B with all 10 returning eighth place AAs? I'd take team B easily given the way duals are weighted. But if the scoring was 15-5-4-3, I'd have to give it a lot more thought.

 

BTW, in the NCAA meet, 3 gold medals will outscore 10 eighths, 60-55, not including bonus.

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