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JohnnyThompsonnum1

Other Sports and how they can help with Wrestling

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We had a kid who the assistant head coach (who was also the cross country coach) got to give up football and do cross country. To say the kid was a butterball was understating it. He did the JV cross country came in last, but finished every race. He dropped 50 pounds. Then in the wrestling room he dropped another 20 pounds. He made the varsity at 195 maybe .500 record, but was an alternate for state. This year he made it to state (only 4 go from each of the 2 regions). What he didn't do was lift weights last spring and summer as I suggested.

 

I've coached two kids who were cross country runners and ran the 800 meters or 1500 meters in track. Both would absolutely wear out their opponents as I got them to wrestle at a fast pace for the entire 6 minutes. One was 4th in state his junior year (1st year wrestler), and won state his senior year at a lower weight class where I wanted him to be his junior year. The other was 3rd as a junior and won state in OT as a senior. So my personal experience that while distance running doesn't help with explosiveness, the conditioning can be a big advantage if you are coached to use it.

 

Rowing would seem to be an excellent exercise. Wrestling is more pulling than pushing and rowing is all pulling. I bought a rowing machine for cardio, as running is no longer an option at my age. Definitely helps.

I think it might be an excellent way for wrestlers with knee injuries to keep up their cardio, instead of being on a bike. Mine you can setup 20 different levels of resistance.

 

I've suggested to parents to have their kids do gymnastics until the kid is about 10. They'll develop excellent body control, and upper body strength.

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Edit: looks like someone else beat me to posting the exact same article

 

Just because a successful wrestler ran cross country, that does not mean it was the best form of training for wrestling. If your goal is to be a great wrestler and focus all of your training on that, then you won't go on a bunch of six mile runs. Nothing about an hour road run has an analog to a six or seven minute wrestling match. You are simply training your muscles the wrong way. There are better ways to gain mental toughness with exercises that are better at training the muscles and energy systems required to win wrestling matches.

 

Here is some info that is from people far more qualified than I: http://saptstrength.com/2012/09/11/running-wrestling-like-oil-and-water/

 

I am no conditioning expert and I wasn't the best wrestler out there either, but I do know for a fact that I never lost a match because of conditioning, and I know that I won more than a few because of it, all because of xc. I found that I was routinely in better shape coming into the season than my teammates because of xc, and already working on getting the weight down. It made for a good start to the season.

 

Our practices would generally include sprint/interval workouts like those listed in the articles. Depending on how tired I was, after practice or at night I would include either a long run at constant speed (pushing pretty hard, ~6 minute mile), or the sprint/recover routine over a 4-6 mile run, no stops. Punishing.

 

Personally, I felt I needed those runs to clear my head and feel like I had an edge. This is not so for everybody. Could I have helped myself more doing other things? Maybe, probably. But for me it was a system that worked pretty well on the hs level.

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Dan Gable ran a lot. That should end the argument.

 

Several years ago, there was a race called the Ray Mendoza Memorial 5k. Ray wrestled heavyweight back when Rex Holman and Kevin Randleman were on the team. He died in combat, and this race was in his honor.

 

J Jaggers placed in the top 10, and Tom Ryan himself ran quickly, even though he doubled back to check on a family member.

 

Coach Ryan told me that he ran as part of his training regimen under Gable. A few years ago, Ryan ran the Columbus Marathon, along with Colt Sponseller.

 

I recall seeing the Ohio State team participating in a morning run. It would be interesting to see how many wrestling teams incorporate running into their program.

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^^This is my last post on subject of cross-county training for wrestlers. Don't really care who believes what. Just want to get a bit more specific and say that repeated long slow runs condition the athlete's muscle fiber to burn glycogen at a slower rate. This slower rate means that the athlete loses some of his explosiveness.

 

Take a kid who can vertical jump say 24 inches. Put him on cross-country aerobic-oriented training and the kid probably will not be able to vertical quite as high. You have an overweight hwt, then maybe you want to put him on some long, slow aerobic workouts off-season into early season.

 

No further comments.

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^^This is my last post on subject of cross-county training for wrestlers. Don't really care who believes what. Just want to get a bit more specific and say that repeated long slow runs condition the athlete's muscle fiber to burn glycogen at a slower rate. This slower rate means that the athlete loses some of his explosiveness.

 

Take a kid who can vertical jump say 24 inches. Put him on cross-country aerobic-oriented training and the kid probably will not be able to vertical quite as high. You have an overweight hwt, then maybe you want to put him on some long, slow aerobic workouts off-season into early season.

 

No further comments.

 

Perhaps that is why Gable lost to Owings. :D

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"It is two a.m. Dan Gable can't sleep. He gets out of bed and does sit-ups and push-ups. It is eight a.m. Dan Gable is running several miles on a dirt road. It is one p.m. Dan Gable is lifting weights and punching the heavy bag. It is four p.m. Dan Gable is starting a 2�-hour workout in the 95� heat of the wrestling room. It is 7:30 p.m. Dan Gable runs to the local food store, makes a few purchases and runs back to his apartment. It is 10 p.m. Dan Gable is doing isometrics in his apartment."

 

 

http://www.cnnsi.com/vault/article/maga ... /index.htm

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I agree with the footwork aspect of boxing. And I'll throw you a curve here.

 

I think that skateboarding, snowboarding and skiing have great body awareness and balance traits to them. I've known several very good wrestlers who were skateboarders, one from years ago who was a Pa runner-up from a school with a weak program, who took Don Rohn into overtime in the state finals.

 

The idea of keeping control of your "whole self" while being able to keep the right pressure where it needs to be (through your feet in the case of these other sports) is something that is very useful in the top position.

 

add surfing as well

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Dan Gable ran a lot. That should end the argument.

I would argue that Gable's training regimen contributed significantly to the ending of his competitive career and the hip replacement he had at the relatively young age of 48.

A few years ago, Ryan ran the Columbus Marathon, along with Colt Sponseller.

Training for a marathon right before wrestling season is a terrible idea.

 

The science available simply does not back up the idea that long distance running is the right kind of training for wrestling. I'm willing to excuse Gable's lack of knowledge that wasn't available at the time, but in 2014, you should know better and not lean on anecdotes over evidence.

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Cross-country races and workouts are nothing like marathons and marathon workouts.

 

High school cross-country races are about 1.5-3 miles long. That's around six to 15 minutes of all out effort - a prolonged sprint. It's ABO the whole way. Cross country runners do not have the option, as wrestlers do, of lying back and relying on technique to win. They must exert full effort throughout a race to win.

 

It was very enlightening to see what the athletic trainers at wrestling powerhouses like JMU think about training for wrestling. You might consider taking a look at what wrestlers at minor players such as Penn State, Minnesota, Iowa and Okie State ACTUALLY do - there are a fair amount of one to three or four mile hard runs mixed in with their conditioning, as well as short sprints and lots and lots of 400s. Many, if not most, Division I wrestlers, even those without cross-country experience, are very strong runners, especially at distances from 400m to 2 or three miles. There is a significant amount of cross-over between the gas tank one needs to keep one's muscles going through a six to seven minute wrestling match and a 10-20 minute hard run.

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Running is a great way to lose weight, and is useful for building cardiovascular, but does little for upper body fitness.

 

Rowing is great for total fitness, as you can tell from all the vomit floating around the area around the finish line. And the time frame is about right 6-9 minutes for the spring 2000(mostly) meter races up to the fall Head races, usually 4-10 Km. Problem is that most of the work is done not by the arms but the legs. Although your legs become stronger, they tend to become heavier. And the increase in leg strength is not explosive. Probably a good thing for guys who are otherwise light for their weight.

 

Cross country skiing is also a massive CV workout, but of course overlaps wrestling season. Could be a great change of pace from normal wrestling training a couple of times a month, Down hill skiing or snow boarding are just maybe too dangerous.

 

Swimming is obviously a good thing. Pretty sure Gable was a state YMCA swim champ.

 

Obviously water polo can be a punishing workout.

 

So now doubters can see the advantages of Canoeing and Kayaking. Although the Olympic distances in flatwater are too short, longer distances are great for cardiovascular fitness, and the BEST for upper body endurance. Whitewater has some additional advantages. Downriver whitewater racing is the "right distance" usually taking 15-30 minutes. Attainment races, paddling upstream, have rather obvious endurance advantages. But one more thing about whitewater. It teaches one to remain calm or as the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy says Don't Panic,

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personally I think ALL other physical activity helps. As far as running goes, it may help with weight control but running in and of itself isn't a great wrestling conditioner. When I ran, I ran stairs. Up a set of 24 stairs then down. Up and down those stairs 75 times in 13 minutes or less. NO ONE was in better condition than I was. Resting heart rate of 36. Once went to the doc and the nurse told the doc....something isn't right with his heart rate......too funny.

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Cross-country races and workouts are nothing like marathons and marathon workouts.

 

High school cross-country races are about 1.5-3 miles long. That's around six to 15 minutes of all out effort - a prolonged sprint. It's ABO the whole way. Cross country runners do not have the option, as wrestlers do, of lying back and relying on technique to win. They must exert full effort throughout a race to win.

 

It was very enlightening to see what the athletic trainers at wrestling powerhouses like JMU think about training for wrestling. You might consider taking a look at what wrestlers at minor players such as Penn State, Minnesota, Iowa and Okie State ACTUALLY do - there are a fair amount of one to three or four mile hard runs mixed in with their conditioning, as well as short sprints and lots and lots of 400s. Many, if not most, Division I wrestlers, even those without cross-country experience, are very strong runners, especially at distances from 400m to 2 or three miles. There is a significant amount of cross-over between the gas tank one needs to keep one's muscles going through a six to seven minute wrestling match and a 10-20 minute hard run.

 

Amen, doc. The key is the running HARD. I think there are a lot of posters on here who think that a x-c race is done at a brisk jog. It is as you said, an all out sprint for 3 miles, or near sprint. I routinely was broken mentally at the end of an xc race. I broke my tibia running a tough course. It can be brutal.

 

After a cross country season I was able to perform cardio workouts at a higher level than my teammates. This ability allowed me to win matches in the third period. Hard to believe that xc would be scoffed at like it is here.

 

Now, if I had known about the versaclimber back then, different story. That machine took my lungs to a different place entirely.

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aerobic endurance and aenorobic endurance are different. I am no expert, but the cursory reading I have done on improving aenorobic endurance didn't involve true "cardio" at all. I was under the impression gassing isn't gassing at all, but a lactic/alactic acid issue which has little to do with aerobic conditioning. Obviously wrestling involves both types of endurance, especially in tournaments where you need to recover in a short amount of time between matches, but I think aenorobic would be more important to train regularly for sport specific improvement in wrestling. I think science supports this if people look into it too. Too much long distance running will not be helpful and will actually be hurtful for most athletes looking to improve. The best workout is the one that approximates that actual sport, and that would be something similar to circuit training.

 

Regardless, my answer would be judo.

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Surprised no one has mentioned Jack Cuvo, who was, I believe, a cross country all american.

 

One thing about wrestlers who have superior conditioning is that they have to be coached to get the action moving early and keep the calorie burning pace up, as opposed to being too deliberate. Gable's tactic was to bring his opponents' fatigue point into the timespan of the match. Being in better shape doesn't help you the way it should unless you bring the other guy's fatigue point into the match.

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Dan Gable ran a lot. That should end the argument.

I would argue that Gable's training regimen contributed significantly to the ending of his competitive career and the hip replacement he had at the relatively young age of 48.

A few years ago, Ryan ran the Columbus Marathon, along with Colt Sponseller.

Training for a marathon right before wrestling season is a terrible idea.

 

The science available simply does not back up the idea that long distance running is the right kind of training for wrestling. I'm willing to excuse Gable's lack of knowledge that wasn't available at the time, but in 2014, you should know better and not lean on anecdotes over evidence.

 

I doubt seriously if Gable's hip replacement had anything to do with his four mile morning runs. I would surmise that his maniacal training was the reason.

 

As far as the marathon goes, you can run a marathon on minimal mileage- 25 miles a week would do it- especially if you are a collegiate wrestler on top of it.

 

"The science available" argument is weak. The "I hate running" argument is more like it.

 

Let's hear from some posters who have competed in some D1 programs. Were you running?

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I believe in a combination of distance running, sprints, and stairs.

 

When kids tell me they are having a hard time making weight. I reply there are no fat matathoners. Go run a couple of miles daily you'll have a lot easier time of making weight,

 

A friend of mine who was an early Hawkeye club member under Gable, developed a program that he said Gable used when he wanted to "peak" his team. Gable said no activity in wrestling lasted more than 35 seconds wirhout a break. My friend came up with 200 meter sprints you had to do each one in 35 seconds or they didn't count. After eqch 209, you jogged 100, walked 100, then did another 200 meter sprint. Started with 6, and increased by one each day until you did 10. Then they quit about 3 days before the tournament so their legs would be fresh.

 

Port Robertson had wrestlers do the 72 rows on the west side of the OU stadium after practice. You had to do them in 15 seconds or they didn't count. If you could do it in 10 seconds they counted double. Only know of two who could do it. One was the late Don Reece who gave Myron Roderick his only two losses in college. The scores were like 22-20. A teammate of Reece's said he simply wore out Roderick in the 9 minute matches. Reece later did triathalons well into his 60s. He recently died of cancer.

Wayne Wells told me that after the 4th one you would feel like an elephant hopped on your back. Hd was right i knocked off the first two eadily, but by the 4th I was done. I walked off and said I don't have to do those to get a meal in the dining hall. I watched Wells do the entire stadium section by section in the late spring of 1972 when he was preparing for the Olympics. He'd also do incline setups with a 50-pound weight on his chest.

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Not sure how the science argument can be weak. It is science!

 

Running for long durations will build or use the wrong type of muscle fiber. In other words, you end up losing explosiveness.

 

I personally love running and have done as much, if not more, running since I stopped wrestling. However looking back at my training in college with what we know now makes me think of all the better ways I could have used my time for developing sport specific endurance rather than daily long distance runs both in and out of practice.

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Wrestlers make awesome pole vaulters....

 

 

While cross country certainly helps with gas tanks, cross-country shape isn't wrestling shape. I'm with Stove Pipe on this one. While running is important to opening up the lungs and get the heart rate up, when I have my guys working on conditioning, I do it through wrestling. They don't need to be running for extended periods of time.

 

 

Entirely depends on the XC training too. If only running long and slow it would not benefit wrestling as much.

If doing fartlek, interval speed type of training (in addition to the long and slow runs) you can specifically train intensity which can be done similar to wrestling.

At St Paris Graham we had a wrestler a couple weeks ago during track practice say after hill repeats it was "the hardest workout he's ever done" kidding after hearing that he said that, I mentioned "don't tell Jeff Jordan that a track workout is harder than his practices"...

 

 

long and slow = volume training

fartlek/intervals/hills = intensity training

 

 

^^Physiological bit of a problem with cross country is that long distance aerobic training will condition fast-twitch muscle fiber (necessary for explosive movement) to act more like slow-twitch fiber. I wouldn't have wrestlers running for more than say 25 maybe 30 minutes at a time.

 

 

Focus on heart rate and total length of workout. Have wrestlers warm up 10-15 minutes easy, stretch. Then get into a set of intense repeats. How many and for how long depends on the athlete.

 

imo - you could adapt mihaly igloi's training methods to wrestling and not lose explosiveness and benefit with building your max VO2.

 

I'll leave it up to Google or a PM if interested to explain his training methods further.... 8-)

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