Alan Fried interview, part 3 (conclusion)

[LkwdSteve 141]

"What stated position of mine needs to be changed, and what does it need to be changed to in order for me to no longer be going "too far" Lkwdsteve?"

 

Simple. Acknowledge that Alan Fried has had a GREAT folkstyle career, regardless of whether you think some overrate him or not. Acknowledge that you are wrong to offer losses to Tom Brands as proof of Fried's lack of folkstyle greatness.

[Coach_J 2,051]

I'll try to be objective here. Three Ohio Division I state titles, four Fargo titles, 4th in the Cadet Worlds--GREAT high school career. Three-time NCAA Division I finalist, one championship, World Junior Freestyle Champion--VERY GOOD/GREAT college career. Freestyle career, never made a World or Olympic team but always in the hunt at the trials--GOOD freestyle career. And in the guy's defense, factor in the back surgeries, shoulder surgery, etc. Dude was pretty beat up in the later portions of his career. No doubt the physical damage took a toll, but I won't conjecture on what he "could have" done otherwise. The objective facts seem to indicate he was a great folkstyle wrestler and a good/very good post-grad freestyler.

[superold 34]

I think you are either mistaken or are intentionally drawing a false picture. What was the context of such "placing"? When and where and which Ohio residents have you "seen" doing this? You say in conversation.

 

How am I mistaken when I had many of these conversations LkwdSteve? I know what I heard. The context of such overrating is that Fried was a greater wrestler than many 3 time champs and that he was placed in the same tier of greatness that they are in. Ex. "Although Eric Guerrero was a 3x champ to Fried's one time champ, when discussing the great lightweigts of the 90s I put Fried ahead of him". Comments like that, and the justification is almost always that since Fried lost to Brands those other titles that are won by other wrestlers can't be used to discuss their greatness in relation to Fried's.

 

Did I remember seeing somewhere on here that you have had a problem with Oklahoma State? Is that correct and is that the source of your problem with Fried and Marsteller?

 

Let me say this yet again, I don't have a single problem with either Fried or Marteller. Please stop stating that I do when I've mentioned on numerous occasions that I didn't. I don't care where Fried wrestled, I don't think that his accomplishments land him in the great category.

[superold 34]

"What stated position of mine needs to be changed, and what does it need to be changed to in order for me to no longer be going "too far" Lkwdsteve?"

 

Simple. Acknowledge that Alan Fried has had a GREAT folkstyle career, regardless of whether you think some overrate him or not. Acknowledge that you are wrong to offer losses to Tom Brands as proof of Fried's lack of folkstyle greatness.

 

No, I will no acknowledge that because I don't believe it's true. For the record, I'm not holding back on calling Fried great because he's overrated by some. Even if I've never seen Fried overrated, I still wouldn't consider him to be great. Sorry if that bothers you LkwdSteve.

 

I will not acknowledge that I'm wrong about my view of Fried's losses to Brands. He lost. Fried's one ncaa title does not get him into the great category. I'm not elevating Fried on the basis of defeat. Fried was a talented wrestler, I give him that. I have nothing against him, but "very good" is as far as I'll go.

[wrestlingnerd 2,585]

The Midlands finals in which Fried pins Brands used to be on Youtube, but I can't find it anywhere. Does anyone have a link to that match?

[HuskyHero133 52]

The Midlands finals in which Fried pins Brands used to be on Youtube, but I can't find it anywhere. Does anyone have a link to that match?

 

That sounds like something only a great wrestler could do :).

[LkwdSteve 141]

"For the record, I'm not holding back on calling Fried great because he's overrated by some."

 

Very good. A reasonable position, IMO. So why did you introduce the issue of "overated" in the first place, and all of that almost-always stuff about what you heard Ohio residents say at someplaces, oftentimes?

 

 

 

"I'm not elevating Fried on the basis of defeat."

 

Nor should you. This is about downgrading Fried based on his losses to Brands. That's the crux for you. As presented here, this is the only evidence offered for your position on Fried's folkstyle history.

 

I disagree with your position and disagree with your offered support. Others, including non-Ohioans, also disagree with you.

 

But, you are entitled to your opinion. It is not outlandish (even if the support provided for it is lacking), regardless of whether it is agenda-driven (perhaps sub-consciously) or not.

[superold 34]

Very good. A reasonable position, IMO. So why did you introduce the issue of "overated" in the first place, and all of that almost-always stuff about what you heard Ohio residents say at someplaces, oftentimes?

 

I introduced it here first in response to one of TheOhioState's posts. It's all there on page one if you'd like to take a look. As for the stuff I mentioned about "Ohio residents", I was just stating the facts.

 

Nor should you. This is about downgrading Fried based on his losses to Brands. That's the crux for you. As presented here, this is the only evidence offered for your position on Fried's folkstyle history.

 

I have given Fried all the credit that he deserves. He was a very good wrestler. Not great, but very good.

 

 

I disagree with your position and disagree with your offered support. Others, including non-Ohioans, also disagree with you.

 

And I disagree with your position and disagree with your offered support. Why mention that non Ohioans disagree with me? It seems as if you believe that I said that only people from Ohio overrate Fried. I've never said that for the record. Some from Ohio disagree with me and some from Ohio agree with me.

 

But, you are entitled to your opinion. It is not outlandish (even if the support provided for it is lacking), regardless of whether it is agenda-driven (perhaps sub-consciously) or not.

 

And you are entitled to your opinion. I believe it is outlandish (I believe the support provided for it is lacking), whether it is agenda-driven (perhaps sub-consciously) or not.

 

LkwdSteve, if you acknowledge that my position is not outlandish, then would you be willing to admit that my position isn't necessarily "taking it too far"?

[SalvatoreG 2]

What is fried upto these days? Is he involved in wrestling at all. Fried was exceptionally good, however probably didnt reach his potential. I'd put him right up there with kolat and mcilravy.

[superold 34]

What is fried upto these days? Is he involved in wrestling at all. Fried was exceptionally good, however probably didnt reach his potential. I'd put him right up there with kolat and mcilravy.

 

What do you mean when you say that you "put him right up there with Mcilravy"?

[LkwdSteve 141]

"It seems as if you believe that I said that only people from Ohio overrate Fried. I've never said that for the record. Some from Ohio disagree with me and some from Ohio agree with me."

 

Nothing to do with what I believe. I was quoting your words, repeating them back to you, asking for an explanation....

 

Here's the record:

You wrote this: "but I think he's overrated as a wrestling talent by many (MOSTLY Ohio fans from my experience)."

 

And you wrote this: "The fact that I see fans (MOST ALWAYS from Ohio) placing him in the same tier of greatness as 3x ncaa champions leads me to say that he is overrated."

 

For the record.

 

It appears you didn't mean what you wrote earlier? And that would be OK, because I didn't believe it anyway. If you had left out the "mostly Ohio" and "almost always Ohio" stuff, then I don't bat an eyelash.

[Idaho 752]

Fried was a great wrestler....Fried would have won the title his junior year at 142...his "underachieving" puts to shame 95% of all wrestlers.

[superold 34]

It appears you didn't mean what you wrote earlier? And that would be OK, because I didn't believe it anyway. If you had left out the "mostly Ohio" and "almost always Ohio" stuff, then I don't bat an eyelash

 

No, I do mean what I wrote earlier. The people who overrate Fried are mostly, not only, from Ohio. Choose to believe what you like, that doesn't change the facts.

 

LkwdSteve, if you acknowledge that my position is not outlandish, then would you be willing to admit that my position isn't necessarily "taking it too far"?

[Broomstick 65]

It has been 20 years since Fried won his title in 1994. When I look at the list of NCAA champions at the 142/141 weight classes since that time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Divis ... .80.932014), I see 2 guys who I would take over Fried (Kolat and Steiber) based on the versions of those wrestlers in the years they won those weight classes. However, I'd bet there are other posters here who would pick additional champions from that group over 1994 Fried since it includes names like TJ Williams, Ware, McGuinness, Jaggers, Dake (freshman year), and Kellen Russell.

[VQLSWAIN 2]

In only 3 opportunties, Fried made the NCAA finals all 3X, winning only 1X. The 2 times he comes up short, he loses to the same guy, who he had beat previously more than once. The chance he would have made the finals in the year under sanction is pretty high. Even Still in the years he was able to compete he goes 2, 2, 1. In my opinion that ranks him a bit higher than just "great."

 

Did he ever wrestle Kolat?

[MSU158 1,503]

Fried was 33-0(at both 142 and 150) with 27 bonus pt wins the year OkState was post season ineligible. He beat Marianetti(took 4th that year at 142) 16-6 just a couple weeks prior to the NCAA tournament. No offense to Abas or McIlravy but Fried would have been a Finalist and most likely NCAA champ that year.

[superold 34]

Fried was 33-0(at both 142 and 150) with 27 bonus pt wins the year OkState was post season ineligible. He beat Marianetti(took 4th that year at 142) 16-6 just a couple weeks prior to the NCAA tournament. No offense to Abas or McIlravy but Fried would have been a Finalist and most likely NCAA champ that year.

 

I'd take Mcilravy over Fried in a close and probably high scoring match(9-8 type match). I think Mcilravy was capable of pulling off the things that Brands did to ultimately get his hand raised in the end over Fried. A lot of the top Iowa wrestlers from that era gave Fried trouble.

[olddirty 272]

Fried was 33-0(at both 142 and 150) with 27 bonus pt wins the year OkState was post season ineligible. He beat Marianetti(took 4th that year at 142) 16-6 just a couple weeks prior to the NCAA tournament. No offense to Abas or McIlravy but Fried would have been a Finalist and most likely NCAA champ that year.

 

I'd take Mcilravy over Fried in a close and probably high scoring match(9-8 type match). I think Mcilravy was capable of pulling off the things that Brands did to ultimately get his hand raised in the end over Fried. A lot of the top Iowa wrestlers from that era gave Fried trouble.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but only Tom Brands gave Fried trouble, correct?

[TheOhioState 417]

Fried was 33-0(at both 142 and 150) with 27 bonus pt wins the year OkState was post season ineligible. He beat Marianetti(took 4th that year at 142) 16-6 just a couple weeks prior to the NCAA tournament. No offense to Abas or McIlravy but Fried would have been a Finalist and most likely NCAA champ that year.

 

I'd take Mcilravy over Fried in a close and probably high scoring match(9-8 type match). I think Mcilravy was capable of pulling off the things that Brands did to ultimately get his hand raised in the end over Fried. A lot of the top Iowa wrestlers from that era gave Fried trouble.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but only Tom Brands gave Fried trouble, correct?

 

Good point, olddirty. You can only add one more individual to Fried's loss column:

 

Dave Droegenmueller from Nebraska, 7-5, at the 1991 National Duals. Fried lost to two collegiate wrestlers in his entire college career.

 

The great Tom Brands (and he was a GREAT wrestler) had 7 losses and two draws in his collegiate career. I can think of four college wrestlers that beat him:

 

1. Kendall Cross

2. Alan Fried

3. Jim Martin

4. Dave Zuniga

 

Maybe someone else knows the rest.

[TheOhioState 417]

Found this on the Hawk Report message board:

 

(Tom Brands went undefeated in Carver Hawkeye Arena.)

 

Freshman: 32-4 (4th at NCAAs, 1st at Big 10s)

Loss in Northern Open Final (Madison, WI) - not sure on the opponent

Loss to Jim Martin (PSU) in Midlands final

Loss to Kendall Cross (Okla St.) in NCAA semis (Oklahoma City)

Loss to Jim Martin (PSU) in NCAA 3rd place match (Oklahoma City)

 

Sophomore: 40-2 (1st at NCAAs, 2nd at Big 10s)

Loss to Alan Fried (Okla St.) in UNI Open Final

Loss to Dave Zuniga (MN) in Big 10 Final (@NW)

 

Junior: 45-0 (1st at NCAAs, 1st at Big 10s)

 

Senior: 41-1 (1st at NCAAs, 1st at Big 10s)

Loss to Alan Fried (Okla St.) in Midlands Final

[superold 34]

Fried was 33-0(at both 142 and 150) with 27 bonus pt wins the year OkState was post season ineligible. He beat Marianetti(took 4th that year at 142) 16-6 just a couple weeks prior to the NCAA tournament. No offense to Abas or McIlravy but Fried would have been a Finalist and most likely NCAA champ that year.

 

I'd take Mcilravy over Fried in a close and probably high scoring match(9-8 type match). I think Mcilravy was capable of pulling off the things that Brands did to ultimately get his hand raised in the end over Fried. A lot of the top Iowa wrestlers from that era gave Fried trouble.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but only Tom Brands gave Fried trouble, correct?

 

I was talking freestyle too. I also should mention that I was including Iowa state wrestler, Bono, who wrestled similar to the University of Iowa guys. I know Brands gave him some trouble of course, and I believe he struggled with one or two of the Steiner bros and Mcilravy. Bill Zadick too.

[LkwdSteve 141]

It appears you didn't mean what you wrote earlier? And that would be OK, because I didn't believe it anyway. If you had left out the "mostly Ohio" and "almost always Ohio" stuff, then I don't bat an eyelash

 

No, I do mean what I wrote earlier. The people who overrate Fried are mostly, not only, from Ohio. Choose to believe what you like, that doesn't change the facts.

 

LkwdSteve, if you acknowledge that my position is not outlandish, then would you be willing to admit that my position isn't necessarily "taking it too far"?

 

Facts? Personal anecdotal experiences are not facts. They can become so with corroboration (depending...).

 

Attaching too much import to Fried's folkstyle losses = "taking it too far". Not sure why that phrase should bother you so.

 

 

Looks like a number of folks are disagreeing with your assessment of Fried's folkstyle carreer. Lots of good points being made.

[superold 34]

Facts? Personal anecdotal experiences are not facts. They can become so with corroboration (depending...).

 

I'm talking about from my experience LkwdSteve. Those are the facts from my experience.

 

Attaching too much import to Fried's folkstyle losses = "taking it too far". Not sure why that phrase should bother you so.

 

Whether I'm putting too much import on Fried's losses is one of the issues under dispute. I don't think I am.

 

I thought you were saying I was taking it too far by not considering Fried to be great. Do you think it's unreasonable/outlandish to not consider Fried great?

 

 

Looks like a number of folks are disagreeing with your assessment of Fried's folkstyle carreer. Lots of good points being made.

 

I've yet to see one compelling point made, let alone "lots" LkwdSteve. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[LkwdSteve 141]

"I'm talking about from my experience LkwdSteve. Those are the facts from my experience."

 

An entertaining response. Anecdotal evidence requires corroboration.

 

 

"I thought you were saying I was taking it too far by not considering Fried to be great. Do you think it's unreasonable/outlandish to not consider Fried great?"

 

Already answered.

 

 

"I'm not sure what you're talking about."

 

Obviously.

[superold 34]

So my position that Fried is not great is not outlandish or unreasonable. Okay then. In light of that admission, I'm not sure how I'm taking anything "too far" then. :)