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Amazing How Powerful The Iowa Influence Under Gable Was!

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VAC ... Not sure who you were barking at ...

 

Are you seriously unable to grasp the point? There were no charges. His statement "she was willing" is in line with that. Nobody is claiming there wasn't a sexual encounter of some kind. People are saying trying to conflate that situation, with no evidence of any substance to indicate criminal wrongdoing, to what Andrew Long was caught and convicted of doing is ridiculous. No charges at all =/= charged multiple times.

 

I understand there were no charges. However he (Brands) was penalized by his Educational Institution.

 

Not really the same thing.

 

My point is, that it did happen and he admits to it. Just because he wasn't legally prosecuted, doesn't mean it didn't happen. BTW the Stat Rape age back then in Iowa was 14yo's old. Also, back in the day, parents were a lot more hesitant to press these kind of charges then nowadays.

 

Complete supposition. He admits he was in a sexual encounter with a girl while they were both in high school, hardly groundbreaking stuff. You're just playing the "what if?" game and then treating it as if it's the same as the concrete facts of what happened with Andrew Long.

 

My beef in this whole tread is the fact that Long's transgressions (PSU Days) happened in August that summer. Heck he wasn't even in School at that time, and people are blaming Cael for it. Which makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah Cael took him onto his team, and the deal worked out for both parties. Cael's team got some extra points, and Long stayed out of trouble during the season. What he does as a graduated Sr. from College (if in fact he did Graduate) While he is on summer break ... Is not relevant IMO. He's not on the team, done with school, and living on his own. No question he messed up badly.... that charge is not going to look very good on his future resumes/background searches. He's screwed. Cael was not responsible for him at that point in time.

 

Long broke no rules under Cael's watch. (That I'm aware of).

 

Andrew Long was not graduated when any of his criminal transgressions, including the very serious one at the end, occurred. You're just saying false things at this point. And it's well known that Andrew Long came in to PSU with serious problems that had gotten him booted from Iowa State's team, and that he had an opportunity from KJ to come back if he sought treatment.

 

We also know that Cael let him onto the Penn State team shortly thereafter without him having even had the time to do anything of real substance regarding treatment for alcohol-related issues. We do not know if Cael had him do anything subsequent to his entering the team or during his time wrestling with them. However, it is undoubtedly a bad look to take a kid who was suspended from a team for legal issues and substance abuse and put him RIGHT IN THE LINE UP, and it's a risk that Cael took. The risk ended up backfiring and now everyone wants to say Cael bears no blame. Sorry, that doesn't pass muster.

 

He's not responsible for Andrew Long's decision to sexually assault that woman, but he bears a different sort of responsibility. He was the head coach, he took on the problem child and thrust him right in the lineup, and so he gets the blame if it blows up, just like he would have gotten the credit if Long had gotten his crap together and turned his life around. That's the way it works.

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VAC ... Not sure who you were barking at ...

 

Are you seriously unable to grasp the point? There were no charges. His statement "she was willing" is in line with that. Nobody is claiming there wasn't a sexual encounter of some kind. People are saying trying to conflate that situation, with no evidence of any substance to indicate criminal wrongdoing, to what Andrew Long was caught and convicted of doing is ridiculous. No charges at all =/= charged multiple times.

 

I understand there were no charges. However he (Brands) was penalized by his Educational Initiation. My point is, that it did happen and he admits to it. Just because he wasn't legally prosecuted, doesn't mean it didn't happen. BTW the Stat Rape age back then in Iowa was 14yo's old. Also, back in the day, parents were a lot more hesitant to press these kind of charges then nowadays.

 

My beef in this whole tread is the fact that Long's transgressions happened in August that summer. Heck he wasn't even in School at that time, and people are blaming Cael for it. Which makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah Cael took him onto his team, and the deal worked out for both parties. Cael's team got some extra points, and Long stayed out of trouble during the season. What he does as a graduated Sr. from College (if in fact he did Graduate) While he is on summer break ... Is not relevant IMO. He's not on the team, done with school, and living on his own. No question he messed up badly.... that charge is not going to look very good on his future resumes/background searches. He's screwed. Cael was not responsible for him at that point in time.

 

I am sorry if I misunderstood what you typed, it was very hard to decipher, but Long was not a senior when his legal issue occurred. It happened in August of 2011. As a wrestler he had 2 more years of eligibility. I highly doubt he had enough credits transfer, or for that matter earned, to even be a senior at PSU when it occurred. Even if you add his redshirt year to his academic time table, you only have 08-09, 09-10, and 10-11 as his college years prior to his transgression.

 

MY BAD !!! I thought he was a Sr. that last year he wrestled for Cael. MY BAD.

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I'm not saying that I would or would not. Were talking about Cael and to win a national title he put a guy on his team that had problems that he knew about. That same guy came on campus and did something worse. I'm saying he doesn't belong in the greats conversation.

 

Yes, Cael put Long on the team. A troubled kid who had little other than wrestling in his life that was positive. Cael took a chance and I think it was believing Long was committed to changing his ways. Many of us believe in giving kids a chance and the new school, new teammates and location could go a long way to settling a kid down.

 

Cael gave him a chance and that is to his credit as a coach and a man. That Long failed is not the fault of Cael Sanderson.

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Cael is a great wrestler. Is a great coach. Comparing him to Gable at this point is unfair.

 

Gable is a coach with credentials to be in the same league as all time greats in coaching in any sport. Lots of coaches can recruit. Gable always seemed to get his there with his recruits and even the occasional 5th year non-starter Senior.

 

His last year (like Wooden) was - while not surprising - not predicted in anyway. Read the book on his last year. He wasn't just a "grind them till they beat everybody" coach. He knew even really great athletes were still human. He knew that his athletes - with few exceptions - could not do what he could. He knew when to give a light practice, and when to work them until they puked, and then a little more. To tear them down and then build them back up to the point they would do anything for you. This sort of thing (Vince Lombardi was a master of this as well) is what he did so well.

 

Gables wrestling accolades got better because of what a great coach he is.

 

I am not now, and have never been an Iowa guy. I root for Penn State because I appreciate greatness. John Smith is my favorite (and the greatest ever) American wrestling. But dang, Dan Gable and what he did was amazing. It's to bad the intensity of what he did had him stop early, I suspect he could have gotten another 10 titles in 13 or less years easily.

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I believe you are right, Wahawk90. Cael was just being pragmatic. Do whatever it takes to win.

 

In the same vein, do what Gable did when he put a guy on his team that had participated in a gang bang on a 16 year old girl. Again, do whatever it takes to win.

--------

Wow....looks like things are slipping into National Enquirer territory....that is quite an accusation TheOhioState, for something that happened nearly 30 years ago between teenagers, with no charges filed.

 

Were you a first hand witness, or do you just like to make unsupported and inflammatory accusations anonymously on message boards?

 

A few things, rossel3:

 

Cael Sanderson was being attacked for bringing Andrew Long into the fold. It was suggested that Sanderson was more interested in winning titles than bringing wrestlers of acceptable moral caliber into his program.

 

I pointed out that Dan Gable brought in Tom Brands, who had issues during his last year of high school, described in the Sports Illustrated article, for which I provided the link that was previously posted by Wire.

 

If you have a problem with the veracity of that article, take it up with Sports Illustrated.

 

In both cases, the young men who had issues were supported by coaches who believed they could help them succeed, and perhaps set them on a better path. I'm not here to argue who was the better young man.

 

One last thing: If you have a daughter, then you could not possibly have made this commment: "between teenagers, with no charges filed." No father would have found that event anything but infuriating.

 

Anonymous? OK, "rossel3," if that's your real name.

 

------

 

TheOhioState, I'm not questioning the veracity of the SI article. What I have a problem with is your portrayal of it. You portray the incident ("having participated in a gang bang"), despite the investigation by authorities that did not come to that conclusion.

 

If somehow "having daughters" compels you to prejudge that way, you have a poor concept of what justice is about.

 

Justice is not and should not be decided by whether or not one has a daughter or a wife or a sister or niece. No more than justice should be decided by knowing some male who'd been falsely accused by a woman. In each case, justice should decided by evidence in the case and if it comes down to it, judge and jury.

 

For the record, I believe the blame for Long's behavior goes overwhelmingly to Long himself. But at the same time, I think given his past history, there was evidence that he was a potential problem and would require help. Kevin Jackson apparently saw that. Cael didn't or decided it was worth the risk. I would characterize it as bad judgement on Cael's part.

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Or maybe Long did not have the same kind of relationship with KJ as he did with Cael.

 

None of us know.

 

But I'm not surprised the Iowa guys wave away Gable taking a chance on Brands (that clearly worked out for everyone) and focus on Caels "bad judgement" with Long.

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Or maybe Long did not have the same kind of relationship with KJ as he did with Cael.

 

None of us know.

 

But I'm not surprised the Iowa guys wave away Gable taking a chance on Brands (that clearly worked out for everyone) and focus on Caels "bad judgement" with Long.

 

Hindsite..... it worked out with Gable, not so much with Cael.

 

American tradition is to knock down those who are great. If we do it good and they really take a fall, it is also an American tradition to let them back in.

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In the same vein, do what Gable did when he put a guy on his team that had participated in a gang bang on a 16 year old girl. Again, do whatever it takes to win.

 

 

------

 

TheOhioState, I'm not questioning the veracity of the SI article. What I have a problem with is your portrayal of it. You portray the incident ("having participated in a gang bang"), despite the investigation by authorities that did not come to that conclusion.

 

 

 

​Actually, it appears authorities did come to that conclusion. I think you are misinterpreting the phrase...There's nothing wrong with theOhioState's use of the term gang bang, that's apparently what it was:

Gang bang: When multiple partners, usually 3 or more, engage in sexual intercourse with a single willing partner. (If partner is unwilling it is called gang rape).

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As for Cael, he can't even be put in the conversation unless he wins again next year. I don't know if their has ever been a coach that 2 guys on the team at the same time that pretty much guaranteed to make the finals and give you bonus points on the way.

 

Tom Brands/Terry Brands.

Kenny Monday/Mike Sheets.

Randy Lewis/Ed Banach.

 

All three were great combos but they truly don't even come CLOSE to what Taylor and Ruth did together. The only truly comparable year was when both Monday and Sheets were seniors and both pinned their opponents in pig tails to score 28 each.

 

As a 4 year combo NONE of the above come even close.

 

Terry didn't wrestle as a freshman. Monday and Sheets only combined for 13.5 total points as freshman. Randy and Ed only competed 2 of their 4 years together and one of those years was when Randy had his injury and only finished 7th.

 

He didnt ask for a superior combo over time, he asked for 2 guys who were going to make the finals and score bonus points while doing it. Sheets and Monday outscored Ruth/Taylor, and the Brands won as many combined championships that Ruth/Taylor and did it with bonus points.

 

Are they as good as Ruth/Taylor? Banach and Lewis was a stretch, but I would say as good and in one case better for at least 1 year. My point was that Cael isnt sitting on championships because 2 guys fell into his lap. Other great coaches have recruited themselves into the same position.

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In the same vein, do what Gable did when he put a guy on his team that had participated in a gang bang on a 16 year old girl. Again, do whatever it takes to win.

 

 

------

 

TheOhioState, I'm not questioning the veracity of the SI article. What I have a problem with is your portrayal of it. You portray the incident ("having participated in a gang bang"), despite the investigation by authorities that did not come to that conclusion.

 

 

 

​Actually, it appears authorities did come to that conclusion. I think you are misinterpreting the phrase...There's nothing wrong with theOhioState's use of the term gang bang, that's apparently what it was:

Gang bang: When multiple partners, usually 3 or more, engage in sexual intercourse with a single willing partner. (If partner is unwilling it is called gang rape).

-------

 

Willing?? If it was willing between teenage kids, why is anyone equating it to something criminal?

 

As far as misinterpreting the phrase, I suppose there is not a precise definition, given that it is slang. You apparently found a rather upbeat definition from Urban Dictionary. But other sources define it rather less cheery.

 

Dictionary.com

gang·bang [gang-bang]

noun Also, gang bang.

1.

a series of acts of often forcible sexual intercourse engaged in by several persons successively with one passive partner.

 

 

World English Dictionary

gangbang (ˈɡæŋˌbæŋ, ˈɡæŋˌʃæɡ)

 

1. an instance of sexual intercourse between one woman and several men one after the other, esp against her will

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He didnt ask for a superior combo over time, he asked for 2 guys who were going to make the finals and score bonus points while doing it. Sheets and Monday outscored Ruth/Taylor, and the Brands won as many combined championships that Ruth/Taylor and did it with bonus points.

 

Are they as good as Ruth/Taylor? Banach and Lewis was a stretch, but I would say as good and in one case better for at least 1 year. My point was that Cael isnt sitting on championships because 2 guys fell into his lap. Other great coaches have recruited themselves into the same position.

 

Sorry, I read it, due to the word GUARANTEED, as a testament to their consistency. They were guaranteed to perform the way they did due to their PROVEN track record. Also, I was not pointing out stats to debate whether Sanderson was/is a great coach due to their performance. I was simply trying to point out there has not been a combo so powerful, EVER.

 

Even with rat tail match pins, Sheets and Monday highest scoring of 56 total is less than the high Taylor and Ruth scored as sophomores(58).

 

The changing of the extra 1st round point 2 years ago throws off the scoring a tad. I scored the extra point every year for all the past era guys you mentioned, unless there were no pigtail matches wrestled in their weight class. I also gave TF points to Banach/Lewis even though they did not then.

 

For true comparison here is a year by year breakdown of each combo for the years they wrestled together.

 

Fresh: Taylor 19.5 Ruth 18.5=38 Terry 0 Tom 14.5=14.5 Sheets 7 Monday 6.5=13.5 Lewis/Banach N/A

 

Soph: Taylor 30.5 Ruth 27.5=58 Terry 24.5 Tom 25.5=50 Sheets 20 Monday 23=43 Lewis/Banack N/A

 

2013: Year the extra 1st round advancement point was removed.

Jr: Taylor 24 Ruth 26=50 Terry 22.5 Tom 25=47.5 Sheets 24.5 Monday 22=46.5 Lewis(Jr)26 Banach(Fr)27=53

 

Sr: Taylor 26 Ruth 24.5=50.5 Terry 25.5 Tom 25=50.5 Sheets 28 Monday 28=56 Lewis(Sr)11.5 Banach(So)29.5

 

Overall: Taylor 100 Ruth 96.5 Terry 72.5 Tom 90 Sheets 79.5 Monday 79.5 Lewis 37.5 Banach 56.5

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Or maybe Long did not have the same kind of relationship with KJ as he did with Cael.

 

None of us know.

 

But I'm not surprised the Iowa guys wave away Gable taking a chance on Brands (that clearly worked out for everyone) and focus on Caels "bad judgement" with Long.

 

At this point, it's about the only thing people can hang on to, and use it against Cael. It is what it is .. :roll:

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In the same vein, do what Gable did when he put a guy on his team that had participated in a gang bang on a 16 year old girl. Again, do whatever it takes to win.

 

 

------

 

TheOhioState, I'm not questioning the veracity of the SI article. What I have a problem with is your portrayal of it. You portray the incident ("having participated in a gang bang"), despite the investigation by authorities that did not come to that conclusion.

 

 

 

​Actually, it appears authorities did come to that conclusion. I think you are misinterpreting the phrase...There's nothing wrong with theOhioState's use of the term gang bang, that's apparently what it was:

Gang bang: When multiple partners, usually 3 or more, engage in sexual intercourse with a single willing partner. (If partner is unwilling it is called gang rape).

 

All I know are real life facts, and as a kid from that era is this: In the late 60's and early 70's, when this type of situation arose, more often then not, the girls or the parents did NOT press charges, and drag it through the courts. It was usually just swept under the rug. So the fact it (The gang bang) did happen, and it never ended up with charges is no surprise.

 

We (my classmates) in High School witnessed this 2 times. In each case the event was not reported. Back then it was an embarrassment to the family more then anything else. One of the gal's was a good friend of mine, and to this day still is. She dropped out of school had the baby, then got her degree at a community college, and has had a great life. ( The father BTW, was on our wrestling team) He left school to take care of his soon to be wife, and child.

 

Those Iowa "boys" were very, very lucky they didn't become fathers at that early stage in their lives.

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At this point, it's about the only thing people can hang on to, and use it against Cael.

 

You mean except for the massive flop by Cael's team. Take away the two Wunderkinds who get all the credit for the four NCAA titles and you're left with a team of mostly under performers. At the B1G six number one seeds managed to win only two titles (guess who) allowing Iowa to contend . At NCAA's the same underwhelming effort let Minny have a chance.

 

Sanderson has assembled the greatest recruiting classes in the history of the sport (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5) yet his teams have struggled to live up to their billing (excepting Taylor/Ruth as always). His teams should remain competitive as he gets the top PA talent, but will still pale in comparison to coaches that actually develop wrestlers.

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At this point, it's about the only thing people can hang on to, and use it against Cael.

 

You mean except for the massive flop by Cael's team. Take away the two Wunderkinds who get all the credit for the four NCAA titles and you're left with a team of mostly under performers. At the B1G six number one seeds managed to win only two titles (guess who) allowing Iowa to contend . At NCAA's the same underwhelming effort let Minny have a chance.

 

Sanderson has assembled the greatest recruiting classes in the history of the sport (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5) yet his teams have struggled to live up to their billing (excepting Taylor/Ruth as always). His teams should remain competitive as he gets the top PA talent, but will still pale in comparison to coaches that actually develop wrestlers.

 

I don't know if you really believe PSU flopped but I hope your not serious.

 

FOUR NCAA championships in a row at a school that hadn't won a championship in 60 years.

 

And some might say the only guys to make the finals for Minney flopped pretty hard themselves. I like Ness but he got beat bad against Dierenger and the 2x NCAA champ couldn't repeat in the finals against a what, RS freshman/sophomore?

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Cael started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Brands started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Difference????

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Cael started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Brands started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Difference????

 

In that issue there is a MAJOR difference.

 

Montel was kicked off the team and was required to follow a list of requirements before he would even be considered for reinstatement.

 

In the case of Long, he was kicked off a DIFFERENT team for NOT following a similar list required by ISU. He was then recruited to PSU. Now I have NO clue what Sanderson required of Long when he transferred in, but comparing the 2 situations is a MAJOR stretch.

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At this point, it's about the only thing people can hang on to, and use it against Cael.

 

You mean except for the massive flop by Cael's team. Take away the two Wunderkinds who get all the credit for the four NCAA titles and you're left with a team of mostly under performers. At the B1G six number one seeds managed to win only two titles (guess who) allowing Iowa to contend . At NCAA's the same underwhelming effort let Minny have a chance.

 

Sanderson has assembled the greatest recruiting classes in the history of the sport (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 5) yet his teams have struggled to live up to their billing (excepting Taylor/Ruth as always). His teams should remain competitive as he gets the top PA talent, but will still pale in comparison to coaches that actually develop wrestlers.

 

 

Like who?

 

And are you saying that Cael didn't develop Taylor or Ruth?

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Or maybe Long did not have the same kind of relationship with KJ as he did with Cael.

 

None of us know.

 

But I'm not surprised the Iowa guys wave away Gable taking a chance on Brands (that clearly worked out for everyone) and focus on Caels "bad judgement" with Long.

 

This is just such a ridiculous false equivalency that people keep trying to create. Tom Brands was suspended from school. Andrew Long was criminally charged twice BEFORE the sexual assault conviction, as well as kicked off his wrestling team due to substance abuse issues, then was brought immediately to Penn State and immediately thrust into the lineup

 

 

In the same vein, do what Gable did when he put a guy on his team that had participated in a gang bang on a 16 year old girl. Again, do whatever it takes to win.

 

 

------

 

TheOhioState, I'm not questioning the veracity of the SI article. What I have a problem with is your portrayal of it. You portray the incident ("having participated in a gang bang"), despite the investigation by authorities that did not come to that conclusion.

 

 

 

​Actually, it appears authorities did come to that conclusion. I think you are misinterpreting the phrase...There's nothing wrong with theOhioState's use of the term gang bang, that's apparently what it was:

Gang bang: When multiple partners, usually 3 or more, engage in sexual intercourse with a single willing partner. (If partner is unwilling it is called gang rape).

 

How do you know this even involved multiple guys having sex with the girl? Not to get too weird, but maybe one of the guys had sex while the others watched?

 

All I know are real life facts, and as a kid from that era is this: In the late 60's and early 70's, when this type of situation arose, more often then not, the girls or the parents did NOT press charges, and drag it through the courts. It was usually just swept under the rug. So the fact it (The gang bang) did happen, and it never ended up with charges is no surprise.

 

We (my classmates) in High School witnessed this 2 times. In each case the event was not reported. Back then it was an embarrassment to the family more then anything else. One of the gal's was a good friend of mine, and to this day still is. She dropped out of school had the baby, then got her degree at a community college, and has had a great life. ( The father BTW, was on our wrestling team) He left school to take care of his soon to be wife, and child.

 

Those Iowa "boys" were very, very lucky they didn't become fathers at that early stage in their lives.

 

So due to anecdotes from your life in the late 60's and early 70's, that is probably how people acted in the late 80's, at least 15 years after your experience? Amazing.

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At this point, it's about the only thing people can hang on to, and use it against Cael. It is what it is .. :roll:

 

...forcing ISU to fire Bobby Douglas and then leaving a couple of years later? The (mis)treatment of Bubba Jenkins? The Alton boys? Ed Ruth being charged with a DUI and missing no important competitions?

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This past season, 50% of the Hawks starting lineup - i.e. half - had run-ins with the police and/or game wardens with a few having charges just as serious as Ruth. Not ONE day of suspension for any of them; NOT ONE. Maybe the Hawk hypocrites in this thread need to reflect on this for a while.

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Cael started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Brands started a kid who had been kicked off a team for multiple alcohol offenses.

 

Difference????

 

In that issue there is a MAJOR difference.

 

Montel was kicked off the team and was required to follow a list of requirements before he would even be considered for reinstatement.

 

In the case of Long, he was kicked off a DIFFERENT team for NOT following a similar list required by ISU. He was then recruited to PSU. Now I have NO clue what Sanderson required of Long when he transferred in, but comparing the 2 situations is a MAJOR stretch.

 

Maybe a stretch, not sure we could definitely say a MAJOR stretch since we don't know the requirements that Long was under when coming to PSU. We can make assumptions but.........

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