Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
HenDog

Pico vs. Retherford

Recommended Posts

If that was a folkstyle match, the score would be 6 - 4 pico

 

and this is a best case senario for Zain....

 

3 takedowns for pico

 

3 escapes and a riding time point for Zain....

 

Pico wins in folkstyle as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that was a folkstyle match, the score would be 6 - 4 pico

 

and this is a best case senario for Zain....

 

3 takedowns for pico

 

3 escapes and a riding time point for Zain....

 

Pico wins in folkstyle as well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pico is no doubt a stud handled Retherford easily I was surprised by this mostly because I have not seen Pico wrestle before other than what has been posted of his matches at cadets where he looked far from invincible. I am not at all on the Pico train yet but very impressive win.

 

He doesn't need you on his train.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think Pico had a huge advantage because of his entire focus on freestyle training, while Zain just came off a season of NCAA wrestling. I am NOT taking anything away from Pico, because he is amazing and deserves all the credit for his hard work and skills. I am just stating a fact. You think Pico would be as impressive if he wrestled HS folkstyle all season and THEN switched over to freestyle in less than a month? No way. Sure he would still be awesome, but he would not be in peak form and near as sharp.

 

A few weeks ago I watched a 13 year old 8th grader TECH FALL a junior in HS in a freestyle match and Greco. It was a beat down. That junior was a state runner up to Zeke Moisey at PIAA states this year! That 13 year old trains year round in Greco and Freestyle, while the Junior mainly focuses on folk style.

 

Tbar Jr. Speaks. Do they teach you guys how to rationalize your beat downs in PA? A HS kid just thrashes PSU's best, and you're saying the kid that's in high school had the advantage over the kid from the PSU room? Lol!!

 

The only people that care about the awesomeness of PA wrestling are people from PA.

 

Coming from the most worthless poster on this forum. It is impossible to have rational conversations with people like you. It must really suck going through life having so much hate for PA because we are the best state of wrestling. While Zain wrestled exclusively collegiate style all season, with great partners no doubt, he did not wrestle freestyle at all. If you can not grasp that I feel for you. And maybe you need to do some research who and where Pico goes with his coach to train with top notch freestyle wrestlers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No dog in this fight, but the video I watched was pretty much neutral wrestling. Not sure style had much to do with those TDs.

 

So if it was a folk-style match you think we would get the same result?

 

This question is irrelevant to the point headshuck and I were making. You mention that Zain was at a huge disadvantage because it was freestyle and raised doubt that Pico would have been able to do the same had he not been training freesyle all year.

 

What you are missing is that Pico did not score on Zain with any freestyle specific moves. The moves that Pico executed are also allowed in folkstlye. Pico would have been drilling those same moves he hit on Zain if he never wrestled a single freestyle match this year. Pico scored with moves that Zain practiced defending all year in folkstyle. Practicing snap down and single leg defense is not unique to freestyle wrestling. Zain had plenty of training to stop those moves, but he couldn't stop them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you are missing is that Pico did not score on Zain with any freestyle specific moves. The moves that Pico executed are also allowed in folkstlye.

 

Pico did score one freestyle-specific point: a push-out that was immaterial to the outcome.

 

Other than that minor point, you are right. Pico's edge had nothing to do with freestyle. His edge was that he was better. He completely controlled the tie-ups, keeping Retherford on the defensive when tied up by hammering him with snapdowns and by moving him wherever he wanted to move him. And he completely shut down Retherford's offense from a distance with his quick reflexes and heavy hips. Folkstyle, freestyle, or greco, Retherford was just not going to win.

 

One could argue that the match would've been a point or two closer in folkstyle, since Retherford might've ridden Pico out or gotten an escape point from under him. But PIco's dominance was not style-specific.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pico would have won in any style. I totally 100% believe that. He would have won because he is as good or better in pure wrestling skill AND he is bigger and stronger than Zain by a substantial margin. Zain's walking around weight is 143lbs. The match was at 145.5. Pico's walking around weight is somewhere between 155 and 160. Pico was a couple inches taller and 10+ lbs. bigger. With overnight weigh ins that gives the wrestlers lots of time to reload. Pico's obviously bigger and stronger and there is no way for Zain to overcome that.

 

And no, I won't answer your stupid questions, old man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pico is en elite talent, no doubt about it, but I doubt he would of pushed Zain around like this in folkstyle at 141 with an hour weight-in. This match was much like Tsirtsis last year in that you have a very good college sized 149 going against a very good college sized 141. Pico vs Tsirtsis will be a better indicator of just how good this young man is, imo, and what a great match up that will be!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pico would have won in any style. I totally 100% believe that. He would have won because he is as good or better in pure wrestling skill AND he is bigger and stronger than Zain by a substantial margin. Zain's walking around weight is 143lbs. The match was at 145.5. Pico's walking around weight is somewhere between 155 and 160. Pico was a couple inches taller and 10+ lbs. bigger. With overnight weigh ins that gives the wrestlers lots of time to reload. Pico's obviously bigger and stronger and there is no way for Zain to overcome that.

 

And no, I won't answer your stupid questions, old man.

 

How do you know Pico and Retherord's walk around weight? Are you basing this on more than just a guess?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Six pages of "Pico vs. Retherford"; guys, get a life! The utter nonsensical nature of most posts pertaining to this boggle the mind--at least to an individual possessing an IQ (186) surely triple that of most of you Neanderthals, and 50+ years of (mostly) high-level wrestling experience (wrestler and coach). Think me pompous? Wonderful! Corroborate my extant disrespect for the mindless twits who argue incessantly over kids who wrestled one match--kids from vastly different backgrounds, training regimens, styles...WHO WILL LIKELY NEVER AGAIN FACE ONE ANOTHER IN A FREESTYLE MATCH and most certainly NEVER in a folkstyle match--so who the hell cares?! Further, notwithstanding the back-and-forth drivel over this ONE damn match, lost are a plethora of heretofore germane and more pointedly significant factors:

1. Pico has trained for years with a personal freestyle coach (who hails from the most dominating region of the world in international styles--a region with which I too have had extensive experience, having led wrestling delegations there for many years). Just as Marsteller became the wrestler he is in no small part owing to the PERSONAL training under Kolat's tutelage, so too has Pico benefitted enormously from his personal training.

2. While posters debate the relative merits of PA vs. NJ (no debate warranted; virtually ALL stats since circa WWII affirm PA's dominance in HS and collegiate competition...; you NJ wanna-be's should move to PA...no, stay the hell in the Tar Pit state), and Scribe (whose clownish appearance bespeaks his imbecilic posts, thus confirming Cornell's [deserved]rep as the inferior "public-Ivy" institution, academically...: take this argument (should enough of you feel so compelled) to another thread. Meanwhile, FORGET PICO-RETHERFORD: TO WHOM HAS PICO LOST IN RECENT YEARS (in freestyle, especially)? But you bozos (Scribe's clear aspirant) perpetuate this "HS 'kid' dominates PSU's best..."(though half can't spell the elementary-level word "dominate")--BUT YOU DISREGARD THE REALITY THAT PICO HAS DOMINATED EVERYONE FOR YEARS!

3. Get a life, move on....and shut the f...up!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zain would win at 141 in folk style. The weight difference is too much. Zain is an amazing guy for going up a weight to wrestle this stud vs cutting. No doubt Zain could make 33 in freestyle. Both guys would get beat bad by Metcalf who is world champ level right now. If Pico was that good, he would be wrestle the WTTs against Metcalf. That won't happen cuz his coaches know he would get majored! Still great thread!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pico is not at the level of Dake,Taylor or Jordon. That will be his weight in 2016! I really don't think he can beat the 57lb champ from Okey State right now,Alex Dierenger. Let's see how he does against Green or Nick Marable! That will be his weight next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pico is not at the level of Dake,Taylor or Jordon. That will be his weight in 2016! I really don't think he can beat the 57lb champ from Okey State right now,Alex Dierenger. Let's see how he does against Green or Nick Marable! That will be his weight next year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

both great young wrestlers. if Zain was wrestling at his walk around weight then kudos for making the finals in a loaded weight. it's also technically his 'off season' so i can understand if he had no desire to cut weight. he'll learn from this match and he will continue to grow and improve.

 

and Pico looks superb on his feet. i want to walk that line of not overhyping a teenager but also expressing how impressed i was. should be fun watching him step up to each new challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When are the 2016 Olympic Trials? There is still a lot of time for these young kids to make gains on the field.

 

So, as the "young kids" are attempting to make their gains, are the others sitting idle?

 

physically their gains will plateau or begin to decline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not convinced that Retherford would beat Pico in Folkstyle. However, I think his chances go up considerably. Retherford's best attribute in DI last year was his mat wrestling. This was rendered moot in their Freestyle matchup. When you don't have to score on your feet to win, the style you wrestle on your feet changes considerably.

 

There are 3 things I think would be a major factor that were not in Freestyle.

 

1.) 1 or 2 hour weigh ins. If the match were to be wrestled at 141 could Pico handle it?

2.) Mat wrestling. Training solely freestyle would put Pico WAY behind the 8 ball. We all know underclassmen and a lot of wrestlers (Period) never transition well in the bottom position at the DI level. As good as Retherford is on top, a young wrestler, even one as good as Pico, can break.

3.) 7 minutes. I know Freestyle is 6 minutes now. But, you get a 1 minute half time. The mat wrestling is quite often a time to rest. The DI style is a major grind in that 7 minute span. Combining this with a 1 hour weigh in is another major benefit for Retherford.

 

Again, I am not sold the above would be enough for Retherford to win. I do, however, think they would give him a decent chance to win.

 

Now I would guarantee the above would be enough for Stieber to handily beat Pico in Folkstyle.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When are the 2016 Olympic Trials? There is still a lot of time for these young kids to make gains on the field.

 

So, as the "young kids" are attempting to make their gains, are the others sitting idle?

 

no they keep getting better too. wrestlers get better as they get older and never get worse. that is why the best wrestlers are all nonagenarians. your career peaks moments before you expire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i really didn't want to comment on the size, but it was very clear pico was much bigger. remember this was a thurs weigh-in and the match took place on saturday. zain is a small 141 with an hour weigh-in. I am not going to take a guess at walking around weight, however pico clearly has the bigger frame.

 

when these discussions get going during freestyle season and people say "a takedown is a takedown" they are dead wrong. how you defend in freestyle and folkstyle are completely different. do some skills transfer over? sure. sprawling and hitting the guy with your hips is a skill that works in folk and doesn't risk exposure in free. a lot of folk defense now doesn't transfer so well. do you think ed ruth would like to choose a different way to defend foster's last shot? he was in ok shape in folkstyle, but gave up a cheap 2 in free.

 

match structure/scoring: matches can go either way in fs compared to how they would in folsktyle. when it is a bunch of takedowns in the new 2pt scoring system the match has a much wider gap than it would be in folkstyle with excapes factored in. going the other way someone scoring takedowns and giving up pushouts and exposure on the way to their takedowns will have a much closer bout in freestyle. pico and retherford is a good example of of the first. pico is much better at 66kg in fs. we can leave it at that. ed ruth vs phil keddy is a good example of the other scenario. ruth gave up some easy pushouts and exposures en route to a 14-10 win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
when these discussions get going during freestyle season and people say "a takedown is a takedown" they are dead wrong. how you defend in freestyle and folkstyle are completely different.

 

That's far from always true sockobuw. It depends on the td and the particular situation that you're in. Defending a single or double is often times exactly the same in freestyle and folkstyle. To call it completely different is incorrect.

 

The way that Pico took Retherford down, there was no high percentage counter that was available in folkstyle for Retherford to try. Retherford was dominated on his feet. I'd be very interested to hear a convincing argument about why folkstyle rules would have saved Zain from those snapdowns, or from getting pushed around the mat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pico would have won in any style. I totally 100% believe that. He would have won because he is as good or better in pure wrestling skill AND he is bigger and stronger than Zain by a substantial margin. Zain's walking around weight is 143lbs. The match was at 145.5. Pico's walking around weight is somewhere between 155 and 160. Pico was a couple inches taller and 10+ lbs. bigger. With overnight weigh ins that gives the wrestlers lots of time to reload. Pico's obviously bigger and stronger and there is no way for Zain to overcome that.

 

And no, I won't answer your stupid questions, old man.

 

So you're saying Retherford walks around at 143lbs, and wrestled 141 all year? BS. If that were the case, he would have easily made 133 and spent the season there. It's not like he had a stud at 133 to compete with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pico would have won in any style. I totally 100% believe that. He would have won because he is as good or better in pure wrestling skill AND he is bigger and stronger than Zain by a substantial margin. Zain's walking around weight is 143lbs. The match was at 145.5. Pico's walking around weight is somewhere between 155 and 160. Pico was a couple inches taller and 10+ lbs. bigger. With overnight weigh ins that gives the wrestlers lots of time to reload. Pico's obviously bigger and stronger and there is no way for Zain to overcome that.

 

And no, I won't answer your stupid questions, old man.

 

So you're saying Retherford walks around at 143lbs, and wrestled 141 all year? BS. If that were the case, he would have easily made 133 and spent the season there. It's not like he had a stud at 133 to compete with.

 

not sure how good the source is, but I have heard gulibon beats retherford. I agree 143 sounds light.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
when these discussions get going during freestyle season and people say "a takedown is a takedown" they are dead wrong. how you defend in freestyle and folkstyle are completely different.

 

That's far from always true sockobuw. It depends on the td and the particular situation that you're in. Defending a single or double is often times exactly the same in freestyle and folkstyle. To call it completely different is incorrect.

 

The way that Pico took Retherford down, there was no high percentage counter that was available in folkstyle for Retherford to try. Retherford was dominated on his feet. I'd be very interested to hear a convincing argument about why folkstyle rules would have saved Zain from those snapdowns, or from getting pushed around the mat.

 

a snap and go behind is the one technique I will concede. singles and doubles are totally different. double ankle or far ankle is popular in both styles, but the way guys get to it is much different. not only defensively do you defend much different, but how you try to finish is also significantly different. americans get killed by euro's when the guy going behind ends up with his leg in, merkle situation. this isn't a score in freestyle and is in folk. the natural reaction offensively and defensively of americans is so detrimental in freestyle. this is the exaggerated scenario, but there is some of that in almost all situations on your feet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...