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HenDog

Pico vs. Retherford

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singles and doubles are totally different. double ankle or far ankle is popular in both styles, but the way guys get to it is much different. not only defensively do you defend much different, but how you try to finish is also significantly different.

 

This is simply false. There are particular situations that it could be very different, but there are many more situations where the defense is extremely similar, if not identical. You're taking the rarer situations and making them into the norm. You don't even bother to define "much different". Or explain why those different situations are far more common than the normal situations. And you forget that many Americans (especially at lower levels) basically wrestle folkstyle on their feet. Judging by the matches wrestled, it still seems many are thinking of mere 2 point takedowns rather than exposure.

 

It's not true that finishing is always significantly different. It can be in specific situations, but it's far from always being the case like you're making it seem.

 

Americans get killed by euro's when the guy going behind ends up with his leg in, merkle situation. this isn't a score in freestyle and is in folk. the natural reaction offensively and defensively of Americans is so detrimental in freestyle. this is the exaggerated scenario, but there is some of that in almost all situations on your feet
.

 

That's more of an irrelevant situation than it is an exaggerated one.

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the exaggerated part is that the difference between what is good technique in free and folk is so different. I am using relative terms so we could be thinking about similar things and not agreeing on the terminology. in the original post I talked about sprawling and hitting the guy with your hips as technique that transfers. at least half of your defense once the guy gets to the leg now in folkstyle is some type of funk or scramble that is wrestled completely different in free. I would have to write a chapter book to explain it all. even chest wrapping is so much different. I am also not comparing what our good freestylers do because they all have a folkstyle background. I am comparing to what the rest of the world does. what our lower level does is wrestle folkstyle and it is scored under freestyle rules. the merkle situation is not irrelevant and it often occurs in international bouts. that situation was the big difference in tsargush taylor at university's. is the situation almost irrelevant domestically? sure. domestic matches are not the matches I am talking about, except pico who is wrestling an international style full time now.

 

the debate started with: how would pico and zain go down in folk..... or does a result in freestyle indicate much in folkstyle?

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the exaggerated part is that the difference between what is good technique in free and folk is so different. I am using relative terms so we could be thinking about similar things and not agreeing on the terminology. in the original post I talked about sprawling and hitting the guy with your hips as technique that transfers. at least half of your defense once the guy gets to the leg now in folkstyle is some type of funk or scramble that is wrestled completely different in free. I would have to write a chapter book to explain it all. even chest wrapping is so much different. I am also not comparing what our good freestylers do because they all have a folkstyle background. I am comparing to what the rest of the world does. what our lower level does is wrestle folkstyle and it is scored under freestyle rules. the merkle situation is not irrelevant and it often occurs in international bouts. that situation was the big difference in tsargush taylor at university's. is the situation almost irrelevant domestically? sure. domestic matches are not the matches I am talking about, except pico who is wrestling an international style full time now.

 

the debate started with: how would pico and zain go down in folk.....

 

Do you believe Zain had a great opportunity to shut down Pico's offense in folkstyle? I mean if folkstlye counters weren't penalized in freestlye, do you see Zain stopping any of Pico's scores in that match?

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the exaggerated part is that the difference between what is good technique in free and folk is so different. I am using relative terms so we could be thinking about similar things and not agreeing on the terminology. in the original post I talked about sprawling and hitting the guy with your hips as technique that transfers. at least half of your defense once the guy gets to the leg now in folkstyle is some type of funk or scramble that is wrestled completely different in free. I would have to write a chapter book to explain it all. even chest wrapping is so much different. I am also not comparing what our good freestylers do because they all have a folkstyle background. I am comparing to what the rest of the world does. what our lower level does is wrestle folkstyle and it is scored under freestyle rules. the merkle situation is not irrelevant and it often occurs in international bouts. that situation was the big difference in tsargush taylor at university's. is the situation almost irrelevant domestically? sure. domestic matches are not the matches I am talking about, except pico who is wrestling an international style full time now.

 

the debate started with: how would pico and zain go down in folk.....

 

Do you believe Zain had a great opportunity to shut down Pico's offense in folkstyle? I mean if folkstlye counters weren't penalized in freestlye, do you see Zain stopping any of Pico's scores in that match?

 

I think zain would run in the first period in folkstyle and try to force it to the mat now that we have seen that pico handfights better than zain. zain's best shot is a sweep that he sits down on the mat and methodically finishes. he could commit to this shot more in folk. I think at 66kg day before weigh-in pico still wins something like a 4-3 with 2 takedowns. at 141 hour before it gets interesting.

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I think zain would run in the first period in folkstyle and try to force it to the mat now that we have seen that pico handfights better than zain. zain's best shot is a sweep that he sits down on the mat and methodically finishes. he could commit to this shot more in folk. I think at 66kg day before weigh-in pico still wins something like a 4-3 with 2 takedowns. at 141 hour before it gets interesting.

 

In light of what we witnessed in their only matchup, I see Zain struggling to get in deep on any shots. What chances do you give Zain of actually getting in on his sweep single? He had a chance to shoot that same shot against Pico, but instead he could only put together several straight on shots with no discernible setup.

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I think zain would run in the first period in folkstyle and try to force it to the mat now that we have seen that pico handfights better than zain. zain's best shot is a sweep that he sits down on the mat and methodically finishes. he could commit to this shot more in folk. I think at 66kg day before weigh-in pico still wins something like a 4-3 with 2 takedowns. at 141 hour before it gets interesting.

 

In light of what we witnessed in their only matchup, I see Zain struggling to get in deep on any shots. What chances do you give Zain of actually getting in on his sweep single? He had a chance to shoot that same shot against Pico, but instead he could only put together several straight on shots with no discernible setup.

 

if he sits on that sweep in freestyle against pico exposure, exposure, exposure. it changes a lot. he might still not be able to get to it, but the amount that you can commit to a leg attack is much greater in folkstyle.

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I think zain would run in the first period in folkstyle and try to force it to the mat now that we have seen that pico handfights better than zain. zain's best shot is a sweep that he sits down on the mat and methodically finishes. he could commit to this shot more in folk. I think at 66kg day before weigh-in pico still wins something like a 4-3 with 2 takedowns. at 141 hour before it gets interesting.

 

In light of what we witnessed in their only matchup, I see Zain struggling to get in deep on any shots. What chances do you give Zain of actually getting in on his sweep single? He had a chance to shoot that same shot against Pico, but instead he could only put together several straight on shots with no discernible setup.

 

if he sits on that sweep in freestyle against pico exposure, exposure, exposure. it changes a lot. he might still not be able to get to it, but the amount that you can commit to a leg attack is much greater in folkstyle.

 

So you are arguing that Retherford wanted to shoot that shot against Pico, but he decided not to because he feared giving up free exposure points?

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I would say as a blanket statement that you change some of the shots you shoot from folk to free. what retherford's strategy was only he and his coaches know. he had to be shell-shocked a little from the handfighting battle he was losing.

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I would say as a blanket statement that you change some of the shots you shoot from folk to free. what retherford's strategy was only he and his coaches know. he had to be shell-shocked a little from the handfighting battle he was losing.

 

Retherford shot the same shot you are talking about on his way to winning the Cadet world title, and that includes the qualifying process.

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you are absolutely correct there. he is really effective shelving it in folk and finishes well on the mat. he had to bail on 1 in the world final and its the exact thing I am talking about. in folk he grinds on the leg until he gets an angle. in free it is finish right away or bail. pico's handfighting took a clean finish out of the equation.

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you are absolutely correct there. he is really effective shelving it in folk and finishes well on the mat. he had to bail on 1 in the world final and its the exact thing I am talking about. in folk he grinds on the leg until he gets an angle. in free it is finish right away or bail. pico's handfighting took a clean finish out of the equation.

 

Zain has finished that shot, or at least attempted to finish it, when he didn't get it right away in freestyle Sokobuw. The major point is, he couldn't get it on Pico and he didn't come close, and there's no evidence that he declined to shoot that shot due to exposure worries since that remained one of his go to shots in his run to the freestyle world title. And I think that you are overstating the ability to finish that shot in folkstyle vs. freestyle. He could also "grind on the leg" in freestyle.

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Mr. Retherford may have wrestled up to test the waters and lacked the strength of Mr. Pico that most likely was @ close to 155 or 160...Rules are Rules...He has a "Gold Medal" which has yet to come for Mr. Pico so we will watch this unfold...I'm happy that Mr. Retherford is on The PSU "Train"!!!

 

P.S. The "Train" PSU :D :D :D

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Mr. Retherford may have wrestled up to test the waters and lacked the strength of Mr. Pico that most likely was @ close to 155 or 160...Rules are Rules...He has a "Gold Medal" which has yet to come for Mr. Pico so we will watch this unfold...I'm happy that Mr. Retherford is on The PSU "Train"!!!

 

P.S. The "Train" PSU :D :D :D

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Mr. Retherford may have wrestled up to test the waters and lacked the strength of Mr. Pico that most likely was @ close to 155 or 160...Rules are Rules...He has a "Gold Medal" which has yet to come for Mr. Pico so we will watch this unfold...I'm happy that Mr. Retherford is on The PSU "Train"!!!

 

P.S. The "Train" PSU :D :D :D

 

Mr. Pico actually won a gold medal, mopsey.

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Time and time again, there are examples of wrestlers winning in freestyle and losing in folk style. In watching the Pico-Retherford match, it seems obvious to me that pico would win the battle of takedowns and while Zain is tough on top, he may get riding time but I'm not sure he would turn him. Therefore, based on this one match, I think pico would win no matter what style they wrestle, IMO .

 

Pico has impressed so many people that even Burroughs made a joke about being out of the sport before Pico arrives!

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