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wrestlingnerd

Burroughs/Dake/Taylor is just insane

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Dake and Taylor are rare talents. We all agree on that. But I am not buying the idea they are at Burroughs's level.

 

First, Burroughs is 2-0 against both of them, and their matches went the same way. Burroughs beat both of them convincingly the first time, then they came back with different game plans the second time, and Burroughs beat them again in close matches.

 

Second, Burroughs's international record is clearly better than theirs. Burroughs has won three world titles in a row. His international record is sterling. Dake has a win over reigning bronze medalist (Shabanau) and former 2x world champ (Tsargush), which is great, but he also lost to the Azerbaijani (Aliyev) and backup Russian. Taylor does not yet have much of an international record on the senior level, although I note Tsargush teched him last summer.

 

Third, Burroughs is going to have close matches and even lose every now and then. John Smith was 177-8 during his six year run. Yet nobody is saying the guys who had close matches with him or who beat him during that run were right there with him. Burroughs is 70-1. He's doing extremely well.

 

In conclusion, I agree that Dake and Taylor are incredibly good wrestlers. We all agree on that. Yet, being the best NCAA wrestler and being a world champ are not the same thing. Being a world champ is another level entirely. Burroughs is at that level. Neither Dake nor Taylor have shown they are at that level.

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Wnerd said all three are capable of beating each other. I think this is correct. It is close. Some here seem to disagree, that is fine. What I find interesting about this is that to disagree you believe the odds of Taylor beating Dake are nearly 0 percent (if not exactly 0 percent. Same with Taylor beating Burroughs.

 

if someone is willing to give me 50 to 1 odds, I'd like to make a wager. Let's see who steps up to show their true conviction here.

 

The desire for some folks to try to minimize how well Taylor just did is not surprising given history of this board. It is a reflection of human nature I guess. Pick a side and then defend that side to the end via all sorts of rationalization, however one-sided and biased.

 

Nom, I don't think that all who disagree (certainly not me) are trying to minimize Taylor at all by stating that we remain skeptical that DT will ever get a win over JB or Dake. He wrestled better against Burroughs than he did in the past, but the fact remains that he still lost. There's no guarantee that DT comes that close again. At the moment, I personally lean towards a JB tech fall victory as a more likely result than a DT win if they face again. I'm not convinced that every match from here on between JB and Taylor will be down to the wire. It seems more than a few assume that will be the case.

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Dake and Taylor are rare talents. We all agree on that. But I am not buying the idea they are at Burroughs's level.

 

Read what I just wrote. I never said anyone is at JB's level. If you are responding to me, you are taking my comments way too far.

 

I didn't read your post. I cut-and-pasted my post from a thread I started because the thread got no traffic.

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If Taylor or Dake did somehow end up beating Burroughs at WTT, they would then still need to place higher than him at a major international tournament.

 

Not true. This rule has been dropped.

 

Really? Holy cow I do not like that. Neal-McCoy?

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Guys,

 

 

What about Howe?

 

He is reportedly (per themat.com) considering a move up to 86 kg. if he makes the cut to 74, he will be right there with Dake and Taylor, maybe a step below. But I don't see him as someone who can unseat the champ. Dake has the athleticism and defensive skill to maybe do it. Taylor has those crazy hips to threaten JB except when JB can penetrate with that unstoppable double. Howe... I just don't see him beating JB. He is too much of a straightforward beat on the head, wear you out type of wrestler, and while he's arguably the best in the country at that style, it will take more than that to beat JB.

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A perfect example. Another loss for DT ............

 

Taylor could win 60 in a row and when he loses you can bet the vault there will be some hater on the internet typing "another loss for Taylor" ......

 

Focus on the positive, man.

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A perfect example. Another loss for DT ............

 

Taylor could win 60 in a row and when he loses you can bet the vault there will be some hater on the internet typing "another loss for Taylor" ......

 

Focus on the positive, man.

 

We're not talking about college now. He's clearly #3 at his weight in the US, has had many opportunities to beat the two guys ahead of him, hasn't done so, yet his worshippers still act as though he's the guy. He's not.

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I am sorry, but until you ACTUALLY win a match the fact that you are 0-9 is 100% RELEVANT. A close loss is STILL a loss. 9 close losses STILL adds up to A LOT of losses.

 

With that said, I DO believe Taylor can break through eventually but being 0-9 is a big deal for both the winning and losing wrestler's psyche. It is WRONG to simply try to dismiss the number.

 

Stop writing like this.

 

No.

 

 

What was it you called me?

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I am sorry, but until you ACTUALLY win a match the fact that you are 0-9 is 100% RELEVANT. A close loss is STILL a loss. 9 close losses STILL adds up to A LOT of losses.

 

With that said, I DO believe Taylor can break through eventually but being 0-9 is a big deal for both the winning and losing wrestler's psyche. It is WRONG to simply try to dismiss the number.

 

Stop writing like this.

LOL

My head is on tilt … like a dog when he hears elevator music.

 

If how you think can be compared to how a dog reacts to music I am not sure my writing style can help or HURT(please spend extra time looking at how I typed this word) you.

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Has there ever been a trio that was this good and this close? Any of them can beat each other on any given day. Insanity!

 

Taylor and Dake are great, no doubt, but there's a big difference between having a close match with Burroughs and actually beating him. There's a long list of guys who had a tight match with Burroughs or had a lead over him, only to lose it.

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wrestlingnerd wrote:

Has there ever been a trio that was this good and this close? Any of them can beat each other on any given day. Insanity!

 

 

1984 136.5 lbs. Randy Lewis, Daryl Burley, Leroy Smith, Rick Dellagatta

 

 

Dellagatta beat Lewis, Smith beat Dellagatta, Lewis beat Smith. Took several lawsuits and the courts to sort out who would go to Olympics. Lewis went and won Gold (boycotted by Russians). I think any one of those guys would have won. Dellagatta had two wins over Belaglazov, the 1980 Gold medalist.

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in 1983, Leroy Smith won a silver medal in the worlds, he went through a gauntlet to make the team. In the trials he lost one match to 4 different Americans and still made the team. He lost to Mike Land, Darryl Burley, (match against Burley was protested and rewrestled, then Leroy won the mini tournament and beat Randy Lewis 2 out of 3, and then beat Ricky Dellaghatta two out of three. Ricky had won the US Open beating Smith in the finals. Leroy made it through the gauntlet but lost a total of 5 matches to four different wrestlers and still made the world team and won a silver medal, beating world champion and several time world medalist Simeon Shterev, before losing to Viktor Alexeev in the finals.

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There were several years with Dave Shultz vs Lee Kemp and Dave Schultz vs. Kenny Monday where there were others in the hunt like Rob Koll, Mark Churella, Chuck Yagla, in the 90's tough weights at 125.5 with Kendall Cross, Terry Brands, Brad Penrith, Joe Melchiore

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Lewboo,

Thanks for your insights. There have been some tough weight classes over the years, but I truly believe none was as tough as yours. That truly was a Golden Age of wrestling. I think we are starting to see the beginnings of another Golden Age on its way. Dake, Howe, Taylor and Burroughs may be close to as sick a weight class as yours. Looking forward to see how It unfolds over the next few years. I love when you post stories about the 80s! Please keep it up!

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What's this 0-9 stuff? I thought Taylor lost to Dake 5x and JB 2x.

 

Not American but for brutal weights how about having Saitiev, Sajudov, Magomedov, Ketoev, Gatsalov, Myradov at 84 kg in Russia (with a cameo from Khadartsev). The last 3 them join a 96 kg class and send Gogcheludze and Gayzumov out of Russia.

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Russia 84k between 2001-2007 was by far the deepest weight classes(s) of all time. It is bad when a 7 time world and Olympic champion can not make the team and is forced to bump up and win 7 titles:-) Gatsalov could not beat Sajidov whos career ended early from a lower back injury-too bad. Gatsalov was actually third on the ladder behind Sajidov and Adam Satiev, crazy-kinda like Taylor now. He was the biggest of the three so he just bumped up and won 7 titles!!! But there was a also a young junior wolrd champ named Ketov and Muradov. They would win titles also. And also throw in Magomedov in 01 - 03. There were other wolrd champ level guys that never broke the top 5 like Tokev and Laliev that never made the top 3. Some bumped up and some retired and some transferred to republics after years of trying to make this weight. Cael was very lucky he won the Olympics at this weight. But I Cael's 2nd place finish in the Yarigan was much more impresive than his olympic win. He went through many tough russians to get to Sajidov and lose 5-4. So this weight in Russia I think triples our current 74k.

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Wasn't Sajidov in the weight class he won for Olympic Gold?

 

Saying he was lucky doesn't mean much I don't think. He also had to be lucky to win 4x NCAA titles and never get injured enough to lose even a single match.

 

John Smith had to stay lucky to win 6 out of 6 Worlds/Olympics he entered... lots of ways to get hurt wrestling all those tough wrestlers at home and internationally year in year out.

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I like to think that my weight class in the OTT 1980 was on par with many of these others:

 

Steve Barrett, Andy Rein, Chuck Yagla, Jim Humphrey, Nate Carr, Dave Foxen, Leroy Smith, Andre Metzger- 149.5. Metz may have broken his leg right before or first round of the Trials...can't remember now. Barrett won the Big Tournament, Yagla won the mini-tournament afterwards to get the swag. 10 NCAA championships between them, plus Rein's, Smiths, Metzger's and Humps World level silvers and Carr's bronze.

 

Other notable in that tournament-- Coach Russ Cozart- 7 time world masters champ!

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