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MSU158

Taylor had a great game plan

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Burroughs is just that good. Still, you have to give credit to the NLWC coaching staff. They game planned Burroughs as well as they could and ALMOST pulled off a GIANT win. Taylor is just SOOO dangerous in scramble situations. He will be a force to be reckoned with at this weight.

 

Also, if you watched the USN broadcast Herbert threw out a Jenkins reference after Taylor hit the cradle. It was pretty entertaining as they ended up saying they had to put a big smile on Jenkins face and if Taylor watches it later he is going to say, "Did you really have to bring that up?"

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It seems that finishing matches is that only missing piece in David Taylor's puzzle.. As far as technicality goes, Jordan Burroughs has been figured out.

 

LOL. You'd think Taylor would have been able to stonewall those picture perfect double legs then...

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It seems that finishing matches is that only missing piece in David Taylor's puzzle.. As far as technicality goes, Jordan Burroughs has been figured out.

 

LOL. You'd think Taylor would have been able to stonewall those picture perfect double legs then...

 

I don't think that technically solving someone means defending EVERY SINGLE shot they take. My point is, I think raw athleticism has become the dividing line between Taylor and Burroughs. It hasn't come down to controlling ties, maintaing a good stance, or any of the other factors we consider independent of raw athletic talent. Taylor's mat wrestling was flat-out better. When Burroughs dug a deep single, Taylor-- well we all see what happened (twice). I think if you run this match 10 times, the wins are split down the middle for both. This was very close. IMO, closer that Burroughs/Dake, considering Taylor initiated positions that led to him scoring. But I digress - I don't think Burroughs has any tricks left in the bag(as if the double leg wasn't the only one). I don't think he can gut-wrench, single leg, angle-pick etc.. Taylor as well as he did at last year's open.

 

We talk in concrete terms about what separates wrestlers at this level. Maybe at the foundation of what makes Burroughs a gold-medalist is what won him this match tonight. It may just not be as tangible as his double-leg take-down.

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Taylor's mat wrestling was flat-out better. When Burroughs dug a deep single, Taylor-- well we all see what happened (twice). I think if you run this match 10 times, the wins are split down the middle for both. This was very close. IMO, closer that Burroughs/Dake, considering Taylor initiated positions that led to him scoring. But I digress - I don't think Burroughs has any tricks left in the bag(as if the double leg wasn't the only one). I don't think he can gut-wrench, single leg, angle-pick etc.. Taylor as well as he did at last year's open.

 

We talk in concrete terms about what separates wrestlers at this level. Maybe at the foundation of what makes Burroughs a gold-medalist is what won him this match tonight. It may just not be as tangible as his double-leg take-down.

 

Taylor needs to win one of these matches first. Jordan is the best in the world with these "limited" bag of tricks.

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no one has figured out Burroughs yet. that what makes him Burroughs. of course either Dake or Taylor can beat Burroughs, just as Marable did, but JB is still a huge favorite over allof them. i would love to see all three of them entered in international tournaments together. should be a fun international season this year, lots of potential. would be great to see JO, Dake, DT, Ruth and Fortune all healthy and competing full time on the FILA circuit.

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Not true. Marable figured him out just a few weeks ago, albeit for one match (so far). Marable has wrestled Burroughs tough a few times, not just that one match.

 

i dont consider that figuring out. he'd be winning 74 if that was the case. and no one is putting an even money bet on marable should they wrestle each other anytime soon.

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Not true. Marable figured him out just a few weeks ago, albeit for one match (so far). Marable has wrestled Burroughs tough a few times, not just that one match.

 

i dont consider that figuring out. he'd be winning 74 if that was the case. and no one is putting an even money bet on marable should they wrestle each other anytime soon.

 

You may not consider that anything, but the record books sure do. Marable has obviously studied Burroughs to be able to wrestle him that closely, given the significant difference in the two guys' abilities. Marable is a great wrestler, but he is not exactly Jordan Burroughs. The fact that he cut to 70 kg is tacit acknolwedgment and recognition of that fact. And yet, he still beat JB fair and square, no matter how you would score his odds for doing it again. Marable used his past experience to study him, make adjustments, and figured him out, again, for one match. It wasn't a wild fluke, where JB tripped over his shoelaces or had a sudden case of diarrhea.

 

Whether Marable can do it again is up for debate, but whether he did or not is not. I'm sure an athlete of JB's caliber would make adjustments the next time, which still doesn't change the fact that Marable was able to do what he did at least once.

 

By your definition, Rulon didn't figure Karelin out. Except he did, and he has a gold medal to prove it.

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You may not consider that anything, but the record books sure do. The fact is that Marable has obviously studied Burroughs to be able to wrestle him that closely, and not just for one match, given the significant difference in the two guys' abilities. Marable is a great wrestler, but he is not exactly Jordan Burroughs. The fact that he cut to 70 kg is tacit acknolwedgment and recognition of that fact. And yet, he still beat JB fair and square, no matter how you would score his odds for doing it again. Marable used his past experience to study hiim, make adjustments, and figured him out.

 

Whether he can do it again is up for debate, but whether he did or not is not.

 

By your definition of figuring out, Rulon didn't figure Karelin out. Except he did, and he has a gold medal to prove it.

 

the record books have an entry for "figuring out"?

 

look, no big deal, but figuring out to me means being able to win consistently. no one has shown they are able to beat Burroughs consistently. whether or not someone is able to beat someone once is not enough for me. but that's just me! feel free to disagree!

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the record books have an entry for "figuring out"?

 

The do. They say Marable figured JB out at least once. Page 57, third paragraph.

 

so if two wrestles split a set of matches then they've both figured each other out? makes the distinction kind of meaningless. that record book could save some space and just record the wins and losses and leave out that whole figuring out section.

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Look, this is a stupid semantic argument that we're in, but I'll indulge.

 

Figuring out literally means solve. It does not mean permanently solve. Athletes are not static objects. Great athletes adjust. They're moving targets. Figuring out Burroughs in March means having to figure him out again in April. Hell, maybe even the very next match just hours later!

 

Who by your definition ever figures out a world champion level wrestler then? When does your rulebook decide when enough time has passed that someone can be considered figured out?

 

If Taylor had sprawled in the final few seconds, would he not have figured out JB? He obviously studied the hell out of him, came up with a nearly perfect game plan, and was an ass hair away from beating a guy that none of us would've thought he would be able to beat in 100 tries. Had Taylor won, would that not have counted as figuring out in your book? Had Taylor won, I would personally pay 3:1 odds that JB would win the next time. But that doesn't mean that for that match, Taylor did not study him, prepare specifically for him, and figure him out (this is hypothetical, since Taylor did not actually win).

 

To answer your question more directly, in my opinion, it depends. If Oliver and Stieber wrestled 100 times, I'd bet they split the matches something like 50 apiece. They don't literally figure each other out every time they beat each other. They're just that close. But when a guy like JB, the best American wrestler since John Smith, gets beat by a guy who's a fourth or fifth stringer, it's not the same situation. Especially when it wasn't some crazy fluke that resulted in the upset.

 

It is possible to figure someone out only to have that guy adjust in response, forcing you to figure out how to beat him anew.

 

The title of this thread is "Taylor had a great game plan." It was, indeed, a GREAT game plan. A game plan that resulted from a concerted effort to study JB, exploit whatever weaknesses he had, and maximize Taylor's chances of winning in spite of a substantial gap in overall ability. The plan nearly worked. Had it worked, I would absolutely consider that plan to have figured out the great JB, if even for just one match before JB and his crew made adjustments for the next time.

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champs get figured out when they are no longer champs and the guy who figured them out is champ (unless the new guy gets beat by someone else).

 

i dont think it means permanently solve, i think it means consistently beat. tough for this to happen the way wrestling schedules work as in FILA and NCAA, guys dont see each other that much. happens a lot in tennis though.

 

but yeah its a dumb semantic argument. call figuring out whatever you want, we can disagree. its cool.

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wrestlingnerd, I agree with you. I'd add that even after Burroughs made it 7-6, in 12 seconds Taylor still managed to get one hand almost all the way behind Jordan's right knee. He wasn't that far off from being able to convert that.

 

As great as Burroughs is, Dake and Taylor are not all that far behind him. Jordan is the clear #1 in the world, but where are Taylor and Dake? How many guys are better right now?

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champs get figured out when they are no longer champs and the guy who figured them out is champ (unless the new guy gets beat by someone else).

 

Not to extend this endlessly, but this makes no sense. Do you really believe that someone like Marable beating JB in the finals means that he figured JB out, but not if he "only" beats him in the semis or quarters?

 

By your definition, Owings did not figure out Gable, Kendall Cross did not figure out Terry Brands, Rulon never figured out Karelin, etc. etc. By my definition, all those guys studied their opponents carefully, trained specifically for them, and figured them out, if just once (and for all those guys, that once was more than enough). It's not like they pulled a desperation move out of their asses for their wins.

 

But again, semantics.

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champs get figured out when they are no longer champs and the guy who figured them out is champ (unless the new guy gets beat by someone else).

 

Not to extend this endlessly, but this makes no sense. Do you really believe that someone like Marable beating JB in the finals means that he figured JB out, but not if he "only" beats him in the semis or quarters?

 

By your definition, Owings did not figure out Gable, Kendall Cross did not figure out Terry Brands, Rulon never figured out Karelin, etc. etc. By my definition, all those guys studied their opponents carefully, trained specifically for them, and figured them out, if just once (and for all those guys, that once was more than enough). It's not like they pulled a desperation move out of their asses for their wins.

 

But again, semantics.

 

correct, they neither figured out the opponent they beat, nor did they pull the win out of their ass. figuring out, to me, happens when you figure out how to beat someone consistently. it doesnt happen often to champions.

 

but whatever, say marable figured out burroughs. i dont care.

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This is an interesting cake the Taylor nuthuggers have baked. A cup of Marable upset, a pinch of yet another Taylor loss, some wistful speculation (a hand behind knee w 12 seconds left), and voila, Taylor delusion a la mode.

Somehow they keep tucking him in as Dake's peer as well, lol.

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I thought it was interesting when Taylor (in the way he did it) signaled his last two points. Wow he's not as focused as I thought. It wasn't like there was a dispute and he was asking for two. They already had a ref.

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It seems that finishing matches is that only missing piece in David Taylor's puzzle.. As far as technicality goes, Jordan Burroughs has been figured out.

 

A lot of countries, and wrestlers have him 'figured out', they just cant beat him. :lol:

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