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TBar1977

Intermat Recruiting Rankings Released

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Get real, ocho. Cael's backers, presumably Penn State wrestling enthusiasts, along with others, aren't the ones who started all of this nonsense. It is petty individuals with nothing better to do than to carp on those successful people they misguidedly believe are somehow preventing their team from winning.

 

Look at the pathetic subject line in the Stieber thread. Placing the word "worst" next to Stieber is patently ridiculous and, frankly, has no place in this forum. And I am no Ohio State fan.

 

People calling themselves wrestling fans who continually knock current wrestlers and coaches basically do the entire sport a disservice.

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Get real, ocho. Cael's backers, presumably Penn State wrestling enthusiasts, along with others, aren't the ones who started all of this nonsense. It is petty individuals with nothing better to do than to carp on those successful people they misguidedly believe are somehow preventing their team from winning.

 

Look at the pathetic subject line in the Stieber thread. Placing the word "worst" next to Stieber is patently ridiculous and, frankly, has no place in this forum. And I am no Ohio State fan.

 

People calling themselves wrestling fans who continually knock current wrestlers and coaches basically do the entire sport a disservice.

 

I present this as evidence piece number 1 that PSU fans(or any fans) always think it is someone else's fault.

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ocho, all T-bar did was post a thread about intermat's rankings and you immediately had MSU post his usual passive-aggresive attacks on anything PSU and then halktalk chimed in two post later with more negativity. This is typical around here. If you want, I'll point out where every thread gets drawn into the gutter and we can see if it's a PSU fan or one of the detractors that starts the downward spiral.

 

As far as the PSU loyalist building Cael up, when and where?? Seems to me that the only time we talk Cael up around here is in defense to the countless nonsensical attacks. Simple fact of the matter is Cael doesn't need us to build him up, his coaching career does that quite nicely on it's own; 4 National Championships and 7 Conference Championships in 8 years of head coaching by a guy in his mid 30s.

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LOL at the minnies.

 

I don't thnk it's hate or jealousy, just bitterness.

 

It's May 1st and they're still dealing with winter. Lashing out may be their way of dealing. It just so happens to be at the team (and coach) which the gophs haven't been able to beat at the Big 10 or National Tourney since 2010.

 

Their 1 month of decent weather is coming, maybe they'll back away from the ledge(s) then.

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As far as the PSU loyalist building Cael up, when and where?? Seems to me that the only time we talk Cael up around here is in defense to the countless nonsensical attacks.

 

Uh... OK, go back to the very top of the thread:

 

Penn State #1. Hit it.

 

C'mon FT, that sure sounds like an invitation, not a response, to me! :P ;)

 

You can gloat if ya'll want to, but ya gotta take the heat that comes with it!

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Wright improved dramatically after Sanderson arrived. He had a nice NCAA tournament as a freshman, but he lost 13 matches that year. He had a freshman year very similar to Joey Dance's. Anybody have Dance down for a future three-time finalist and two-time champ?

 

 

He seemed to light a pretty big a$$ fire under an underachieving Quentin Wright.

 

That's not the first time I've heard the assertion that Cael somehow turned Quentin Wright around. I have to disagree. Wright was a true freshman all-american at 174, placing 6th in 2009, before taking a redshirt the following season. He was hardly underachieving before Cael arrived.

 

In his true freshman season, Wright lost 9 regular season matches losing to the #5, #14, #7, #2, #1 and bumped to 184 and lost to the #17 wrestler. He also beat the #6 who was a returning AA in one of his first matches, he also beat a later #14 and beat a #11 at 184. Despite 9 losses, he was seeded 3rd at Big 10's and took 2nd. At NCAA's, he was seeded 3rd and finished 6th. Looks like he turned it on at the end of the year when it really mattered. Does Sunderland and Perry get the credit? Sure 13 losses after NCAA's but he was seeded 3rd!

 

His redshirt sophomore season which was two years later, he had 6 regular season losses and many PSU fans were questioning whether he would even AA. He then turned it on at the end when it mattered and won Big 10's and NCAA's.

 

So he had 3 fewer losses two years later (9 vs 6) and had a great postseason again and Cael is super coach?

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Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches. There are a lot of great recruits. One can help benefit the other. One can succeed in spite of the other.

 

No we cannot ocho. I'd say that there are only a few great coaches in college wrestling. Cael, John Smith, and Brands. Right now, Cael is the best in the business.

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Look at the pathetic subject line in the Stieber thread. Placing the word "worst" next to Stieber is patently ridiculous and, frankly, has no place in this forum. And I am no Ohio State fan.

 

There's nothing ridiculous about discussing who the best (and by extension, the worst) 4 time ncaa champions is. Whenever you identify the best anything, you are discussing who the best is better than. And if you give a certain criteria for identifying the best, you are indirectly giving a criteria for who the worst is. The worst is simply the one who is the furthest away from reaching the criteria.

 

I think there are several posters here who are far too sensitive. It seems that if you don't give a wrestler a compliment before every criticism, you are labeled as being a hater or troll. It's quite ridiculous. So many accusations with nothing concrete to back it up. I've been accused of hating several wrestlers or teams, but in reality, I've never said I single negative thing about a single individual or team! This nonsense needs to stop.

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Over the past 5 recruiting seasons, Penn State has signed 9 top-30 recruits, Iowa 10, and Ohio State 10. So on that broad level there is parity. (I didn't have the energy to check Minny and Okie St, but I'm guessing they're in the same ballpark.)

 

The big difference?

 

All 10 of Penn State's were top-10. 8 of Ohio State's were top-10. Only 1 of Iowa's was top-10.

 

They've each had some defections (e.g. Campolattano, Skonieczny. Sherlock and Ballweg were both just outside the top 30.) They've each had some guys under-perform so far (e.g. Altons, Moore, Dziewa, Courts). And Iowa and PSU have both had some low-ranked guys over-perform (e.g. English, Burak; Grothus may join the list).

 

One can also argue whether there is a significant difference between top-10 vs. top-30. For example, Penn State got #3 Gulibon, while Iowa "only" got #16 Gilman and #23 Clark. Things get pretty subjective when you're force-ranking every HS wrestler in the country. I'd say among just about anyone in the top 30, passion and mindset are more important than whether you're #2 or #29 going in. Everyone has to get better in order to win an NCAA title, so it's about how determined you are to get to the top.

 

In short, Penn State is out-recruiting the BLUE-blue-chippers, and Ohio State is right behind. Iowa is maintaining parity among top-30 recruits, and time will tell if there is a real difference in those strategies.

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Over the past 5 recruiting seasons, Penn State has signed 9 top-30 recruits, Iowa 10, and Ohio State 10. So on that broad level there is parity. (I didn't have the energy to check Minny and Okie St, but I'm guessing they're in the same ballpark.)

 

The big difference?

 

All 10 of Penn State's were top-10. 8 of Ohio State's were top-10. Only 1 of Iowa's was top-10.

 

They've each had some defections (e.g. Campolattano, Skonieczny. Sherlock and Ballweg were both just outside the top 30.) They've each had some guys under-perform so far (e.g. Altons, Moore, Dziewa, Courts). And Iowa and PSU have both had some low-ranked guys over-perform (e.g. English, Burak; Grothus may join the list).

 

One can also argue whether there is a significant difference between top-10 vs. top-30. For example, Penn State got #3 Gulibon, while Iowa "only" got #16 Gilman and #23 Clark. Things get pretty subjective when you're force-ranking every HS wrestler in the country. I'd say among just about anyone in the top 30, passion and mindset are more important than whether you're #2 or #29 going in. Everyone has to get better in order to win an NCAA title, so it's about how determined you are to get to the top.

 

In short, Penn State is out-recruiting the BLUE-blue-chippers, and Ohio State is right behind. Iowa is maintaining parity among top-30 recruits, and time will tell if there is a real difference in those strategies.

------

 

Very reasonable post Tarphawk and agree with most of what you said. And there is a lot of subjectivity in ranking of HS kids.

 

But at the same time I believe the odds are, a team will likely score more ncaa team points over a career with a recruit who was a top 10 all weight classes combined, than with a guy ranked somewhere between 20-30th. I think the evidence for recent years bear this out, though I've not looked at figures prior to the last 7-8 years.

 

The David Taylors, Ed Ruths, Logan Stiebers and Brent Metcalfs are generally more likely to be found in the top 10 than any other decile. Again, there are exceptions, but just talking generalities over a long term.

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As far as the PSU loyalist building Cael up, when and where?? Seems to me that the only time we talk Cael up around here is in defense to the countless nonsensical attacks.

 

Uh... OK, go back to the very top of the thread:

 

Penn State #1. Hit it.

 

C'mon FT, that sure sounds like an invitation, not a response, to me! :P ;)

 

You can gloat if ya'll want to, but ya gotta take the heat that comes with it!

 

T-Bar was just being a good forum member by disseminating some interesting information. He made a factual note about the #1 and then instructed the reader to hit the link to get the full list. He should be applauded for his altruism.

 

btw, I think getting a recruiting class ranked first is a albatross because it gives opposing fan bases too much fodder. Iowa fans use to use it against Cael and now they are dealing with it from unruly fans such as myself. Heck, Rutgers fans had to deal with so much crap for having one really good class.

 

Ocho, Jammen and the rest of the Minnesota fans are lucky they don't have to deal with this problem :P

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Minnesota graduated 4 starters this year and 5 next year and will have some scholly money to throw around. FT Minnesota will have the number 1 class next year u heard it here first! ;)

 

Ps Cael was in Minnesota recruiting yesterday. He attended a Minnesota Elite wrestling practice and a PINnacle practice.

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Which more accurately reflects the ability of a graduating high schooler:

 

His P4P* rankings as compared to other seniors, or his final weight class ranking which would be all-class?

 

 

I think P4P is too subjective for it to be the basis for the type of analysis being attempted here.

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Which more accurately reflects the ability of a graduating high schooler:

 

His P4P* rankings as compared to other seniors, or his final weight class ranking which would be all-class?

 

 

I think P4P is too subjective for it to be the basis for the type of analysis being attempted here.

 

 

I would not disagree with you once you get past the top 5 or 6 ranked P4P'er. However, I think the 1st 3, and often the top 5 or 6, are consistently the cream of the crop in all of High School wrestling.

 

2014: Snyder, Marstellar and Brill. WOW!!! Excepting injury there is a realistic chance at 12 AA finishes and multiple championships. All 3 are DI AA ready. The funny thing is I think the top 10 from this year is as deep as I can remember. Nevills, Nickal, Jordan and Nolf also look like they are ready to produce right away.

 

2013: Jordan, Coon, Retherford. Again pretty special. The next 3 were pretty special as well. Whitford had academic issues but was on fire, Martinez redshirted and Cox just won an NCAA championship.

 

2012: Tsirtsis, Massa, Gulibon. Tsirtsis just won NCAA's as a redshirt freshman. Massa made r12 as a true freshman. Gulibon has questions surrounding him, but has time to prove himself. After the top 3 you have a very solid case for this senior class.

 

2011: McIntosh, Megaludis, Dierenger, Storley, McCauley, Thielke, H. Stieber. The top 3 and Stieber all wrestled as true freshman and only McIntosh didn't make the podium. I believe he would have if he didn't take one for the team and bump up to 197. Dierenger has been special.

 

2010: Stieber, Alton, Villalonga, Evans, Peppelman. Other than Stieber there have been some definite inconsistencies but you still have a 2x AA in that group.

 

2009: Taylor, Grajales, Perry, Dake, Ruth. Wow!!!!!! 1.)2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st. 2x Hodge 2.)r12, r12, r16, 3rd. 3.)r12, 3rd, 1st, 1st. 4.)1st, 1st, 1st, 1st 1x Hodge 5.) 3rd, 1st, 1st, 1st.

 

I could keep going but it is pretty clear the top 5 p4p are usually something special.

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I think for the "discussion" people are trying to have here the P4P rankings are more appropriate cuz it appears people are focusing on top end blue chip strength coming out of high school.

 

Someone posted top 30 recruits the past 5 years. Here is a breakdown of MN's classes according to Earl at D1. I included all top 30 recruits, top 100 recruits, and non top 100 recruits if they were a long term starter or project to be a long term starter. Take it for what you wish as I just like to do this stuff out of interest.

 

2009- Alec Ortiz 22 (Spot Starter), David Thorn 30(2x AA), Tony Nelson 49(4x AA, 2xNC), Kevin Steinhaus 86(3x AA), Danny Zilverberg UR (1xAA) (Dietchler was also included in this class after recommitting, I think Bart Reiter was a top 100 guy transferred to UNI)

2010- Dylan Ness 15(3x AA, 2x Finalist), Nick Dardanes 20 (1x AA), Tyler Lehmann 57 (did not enroll at U, international route, now at NDSU), Scott Schiller 78 (2x AA), Chris Dardanes 81 (2x AA)

2011-Logan Storley 5(3xAA), Brad Dolezal 76, Steve Kouegh 79

2012-Michael Kroells 22 (will step in for Tony Nelson), Brandon Kingsley 37 (may start 165, otherwise behind Ness), Sam Brancale 74 (125 starter), Dakota Trom 76 (did not enroll, at RCTC), Dylan Reel 89 (transferred to Clakamas JC), Brett Pfarr 171(will step in for Steinhaus)

2013-Jake Short 18 (behind ND most likely), Nick Wanzek 23 (possible 165 starter)

 

That leaves MN with 8 top 30 recruits and 1 top 5 recruit in the past 5 years. Hard to rate the 2012 and 2013 classes yet because they have been stuck behind the depth MN has, but time will tell. To this point, based on the last 5 years it appears MN has only landed one "bust" in Alec Ortiz(jury still out on 2012 and 2013). Also appears the Gophers have gotten a lot of production out of non top 30 recruits. However, if you look at 2008 you can see a lot more low points in MN's #1 recruiting class.

 

Top Recruits:(I think all were top 100 recruits) (141) Matt Mincey-Apple Valley, MN(spot starter), (149) Mario Mason-Moorestown, NJ(transferred to Rutgers, no AA), (157) Jake Deitchler-Ramsey, MN(career ending injury), (174) Cody Yohn-Alamosa, CO(1xAA), (197) Ryland Geiger-Scappose, OR(transferred to Clakamas, no AA), (285) Atticus Disney-Shawnee Heights, KS(transferred to Cal Poly, no AA).

 

Another interesting read. Take a look at Earl's recruiting rewind for 2009. Nice to See Nelson at 3 and Steinhaus at 11! Also Thorn at 22 and Zilverberg at 24, didn't expect Z to be on the list.

http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Recruiting_2009.html

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Over the past 5 recruiting seasons, Penn State has signed 9 top-30 recruits, Iowa 10, and Ohio State 10. So on that broad level there is parity. (I didn't have the energy to check Minny and Okie St, but I'm guessing they're in the same ballpark.)

 

The big difference?

 

All 10 of Penn State's were top-10. 8 of Ohio State's were top-10. Only 1 of Iowa's was top-10.

 

They've each had some defections (e.g. Campolattano, Skonieczny. Sherlock and Ballweg were both just outside the top 30.) They've each had some guys under-perform so far (e.g. Altons, Moore, Dziewa, Courts). And Iowa and PSU have both had some low-ranked guys over-perform (e.g. English, Burak; Grothus may join the list).

 

One can also argue whether there is a significant difference between top-10 vs. top-30. For example, Penn State got #3 Gulibon, while Iowa "only" got #16 Gilman and #23 Clark. Things get pretty subjective when you're force-ranking every HS wrestler in the country. I'd say among just about anyone in the top 30, passion and mindset are more important than whether you're #2 or #29 going in. Everyone has to get better in order to win an NCAA title, so it's about how determined you are to get to the top.

 

In short, Penn State is out-recruiting the BLUE-blue-chippers, and Ohio State is right behind. Iowa is maintaining parity among top-30 recruits, and time will tell if there is a real difference in those strategies.

 

Excellent post.

I think that Iowa has a pretty good/underranked recruit in Burke Paddock, IF:

Iowa doesn't try to mold him into a box.

He has a lot of unconventionals and is pretty dangerous.

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There is no such thing as a sure thing in recruiting, but the winner of the Dave Scultz Award is probably the closest thing:

 

2001 Steven Mocco, Blair Academy, Blairstown, New Jersey

2002 Teyon Ware, Edmond North High School, Edmond, Oklahoma

2003 C. P. Schlatter, St. Paul Graham High School, Urbana, Ohio

2004 Coleman Scott, Waynesburg High School, Waynesburg, Pennsylvania

2005 Troy Nickerson, Chenango Forks High School, Chenango Forks, New York

2006 David Craig, Brandon High School, Brandon, Florida

2007 Zachary Sanders, Wabasha-Kellog High School, Wabasha, Minnesota

2008 Jason Chamberlain, Springville High School, Springville, Utah

2009 David Taylor, Graham High School, St. Paris, Ohio

2010 Logan Steiber, Monroeville High School, Monroeville, Ohio

2011 Morgan McIntosh, Calvary Chapel High School, Santa Ana, California

2012 Taylor Massa, St. Johns High School, St. Johns, Michigan

2013 Zain Retherford, Benton Area High School, Benton, Pennsylvania

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Using Earl's Recuiting re-wind 2005-2009- Top 5 kids

 

2005

1) Dustin Schlatter- 9th best recruit (Per Earl's Formula)

2) Brent Metcalf 5th

3) Troy Nickerson 4th

4) Cyler Sanderson 23rd

5) Mitch Mueller 33rd

 

2006 (Top Six due to Cejudo)

 

1) David Craig 41st

2) Henry Cejudo NA (Though I think we would all agree he likely would have enjoyed an excellent college career)

3) Mike Grey 16th

4) Lance Palmer 2nd

5) Jordan Frishkorn NR

6) Billy Murphy NR

 

2007

 

1) Cody Gardner NR

2) Zack Kemmerer 41st

3) Albert White NR

4) Sean Nemec NR

5) Corey Jantzen 43rd

 

2008

 

1) Jason Welch 5th

2) Scott Winston 36th

3) Mario Mason NR

4) Alex Meade NR

5) Michael Mangrum 19th

 

2009

 

1) David Taylor 1st

2) Eric Grajales 13th

3) Chris Perry- 7th

4) Kyle Dake 3rd (Big ten titles are rewarded more heavily than EIWA titles)

5) Ed Ruth 1st

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The State winners should be announced any time now. The national award winner was announced on or about May 9th last year.

 

A nice crop of kids to choose from (as usual). I would presume Chance gets it. (Snyder assuming he isn't eligible for the award cuz he did not compete this season, but who knows).

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