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Intermat Recruiting Rankings Released

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Using Earl's Recuiting re-wind 2005-2009- Top 5 kids

 

2005

1) Dustin Schlatter- 9th best recruit (Per Earl's Formula)

2) Brent Metcalf 5th

3) Troy Nickerson 4th

4) Cyler Sanderson 23rd

5) Mitch Mueller 33rd

 

2006 (Top Six due to Cejudo)

 

1) David Craig 41st

2) Henry Cejudo NA (Though I think we would all agree he likely would have enjoyed an excellent college career)

3) Mike Grey 16th

4) Lance Palmer 2nd

5) Jordan Frishkorn NR

6) Billy Murphy NR

 

2007

 

1) Cody Gardner NR

2) Zack Kemmerer 41st

3) Albert White NR

4) Sean Nemec NR

5) Corey Jantzen 43rd

 

2008

 

1) Jason Welch 5th

2) Scott Winston 36th

3) Mario Mason NR

4) Alex Meade NR

5) Michael Mangrum 19th

 

2009

 

1) David Taylor 1st

2) Eric Grajales 13th

3) Chris Perry- 7th

4) Kyle Dake 3rd (Big ten titles are rewarded more heavily than EIWA titles)

5) Ed Ruth 1st

 

So 14 of 25 finished outside the top 20 and 8 were not ranked at all despite being top 5.

 

Recruiting is definitely an inexact science. 2007 was a fiasco.

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So 14 of 25 finished outside the top 20 and 8 were not ranked at all despite being top 5.

 

Recruiting is definitely an inexact science. 2007 was a fiasco.

 

Here is something on looking at the top ten finishers in the recruiting rewind from D1 from 2005 to 2009.

 

"... I went through all of the data D1 had made available and going back to 2005, and of the top 10 recruits, only 15 of the 50 who started #10 or better, finished in the top 10 of the recruiting classes. What is even more impressive is 16% of the top 10 finishers over that same period of time were ranked either 100 or lower, or even unranked."

 

http://iawrestle.com/2014/05/01/its-not ... you-start/

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Get real, ocho. Cael's backers, presumably Penn State wrestling enthusiasts, along with others, aren't the ones who started all of this nonsense.

 

So I take it that you are not part of the "In Cael We Trust" crowd?

 

It's sobering to realize that if Taylor/Ruth had ended up at Michigan State the Spartans would've been a top 5 team this year placing ahead of Penn State and instead of Cael we would be hailing Coach Minkel as the next great thing.

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Get real, ocho. Cael's backers, presumably Penn State wrestling enthusiasts, along with others, aren't the ones who started all of this nonsense.

 

So I take it that you are not part of the "In Cael We Trust" crowd?

 

It's sobering to realize that if Taylor/Ruth had ended up at Michigan State the Spartans would've been a top 5 team this year placing ahead of Penn State and instead of Cael we would be hailing Coach Minkel as the next great thing.

 

 

 

I see you took a day off from trolling the various Penn State msg. boards.

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"I could keep going but it is pretty clear the top 5 p4p are usually something special."

 

Absolutely agree.

 

But the top 5, while being very important, is also a very small part of recruiting rankings. The problem is 6 through 30. Or through 50. Or through 100.

 

There is NO WAY those positions can be accurately ranked with any kind of credibility.

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Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches. There are a lot of great recruits. One can help benefit the other. One can succeed in spite of the other.

 

No we cannot ocho. I'd say that there are only a few great coaches in college wrestling. Cael, John Smith, and Brands. Right now, Cael is the best in the business.

 

I forgot "Jrob'".

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I feel you are holding the term great to a higher regard than I, but either way I will play along. So winning a national title is the only thing that can qualify a college coach as a great coach? Cuz according to your list that is the requirement among the only 4 great coaches in college. I get it, winning is the only determining factor to gauge coaching success apparently. You are attempting to put a tangible requirement to an intangible argument. People's opinions of the greatest anything will always differ because not everyone value's the same things with the same weight.

 

Your opinion is that Cael is the best in the business currently, that is fine. You have a strong case to support your opinion. I already stated that in my opinion Cael is above the rest of the coaching field at the following 3 areas. Name Recognition, Recruiting, and Recent Success. When you look at recruit development, marketing, motivation, loyalty, training, etc. the pool gets filled with more people that have an argument to be equal to or even superior to Cael in my opinion. Not claiming that Cael is horrible in any of the (made up) categories, but there is a possibly he is not the best at it. I know it is difficult for Cael faithful to rationalize that Cael may not be the best at something, but it is possible.

 

For those that think I am just a bitter Gopher fan, I have a similar opinion of J Rob. He is among the top coaches in almost every category but I don't proclaim him to be the best coach in college. Rob Koll is my favorite and even there he isn't the best in every facet of coaching. Again it is a subjective argument and no one is ever right or wrong. Also lost in the argument is the importance of the assistant coaches.

 

In conclusion, I feel there are many more excellent coaches in college wrestling than the only 4 you list.

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I feel you are holding the term great to a higher regard than I, but either way I will play along. So winning a national title is the only thing that can qualify a college coach as a great coach? Cuz according to your list that is the requirement among the only 4 great coaches in college. I get it, winning is the only determining factor to gauge coaching success apparently. You are attempting to put a tangible requirement to an intangible argument. People's opinions of the greatest anything will always differ because not everyone value's the same things with the same weight.

 

Your opinion is that Cael is the best in the business currently, that is fine. You have a strong case to support your opinion. I already stated that in my opinion Cael is above the rest of the coaching field at the following 3 areas. Name Recognition, Recruiting, and Recent Success. When you look at recruit development, marketing, motivation, loyalty, training, etc. the pool gets filled with more people that have an argument to be equal to or even superior to Cael in my opinion. Not claiming that Cael is horrible in any of the (made up) categories, but there is a possibly he is not the best at it. I know it is difficult for Cael faithful to rationalize that Cael may not be the best at something, but it is possible.

 

For those that think I am just a bitter Gopher fan, I have a similar opinion of J Rob. He is among the top coaches in almost every category but I don't proclaim him to be the best coach in college. Rob Koll is my favorite and even there he isn't the best in every facet of coaching. Again it is a subjective argument and no one is ever right or wrong. Also lost in the argument is the importance of the assistant coaches.

 

In conclusion, I feel there are many more excellent coaches in college wrestling than the only 4 you list.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

 

Cael is the best in the business right now. Cael is winning in the objective category that matters most, ncaa titles. Taking your team to the ncaa title is what it's all about at the end of the day. That's why ncaa titles should be the #1 criteria on any meaningful list of best ncaa coaches (and wrestlers too). I don't think it's wise to elevate anyone above Cael on the basis of some other subjective criteria. Especially since you could probably argue that Cael is at the top in every relevant subjective category as well.

 

I know it is difficult for Cael faithful to rationalize that Cael may not be the best at something, but it is possible.

 

See, even here you can only say that it's possible that Cael isn't the best at something. You can't definitively rule him out as being the best in every major category. In light of that fact, and even more, the fact that Cael is leading in the most important and only objective criteria, it doesn't make much sense to me to seriously consider anyone above him at the moment.

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Ocho, could you give me your entire list of great coaches?

I'm not wasting my time since u are clearly holding the term great to a higher standard than I.

 

Go back to chanting "Cael's #1" My apologies for interrupting

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Ocho, could you give me your entire list of great coaches?

I'm not wasting my time since u are clearly holding the term great to a higher standard than I.

 

Go back to chanting "Cael's #1" My apologies for interrupting

 

Of course we have different standards of great, that's obvious. That was the purpose of our last posts to each other. I explained why I considered only a few coaches to be great, and you explained why you thought that there were more great coaches than the 4 I mentioned.

 

Now that it has been well established that you believe that there are more great coaches than the ones I named, I'd like to see who else you would include in that category. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. So, could you post your list of all the great coaches in ncaa wrestling today?

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Fair enough.

 

I don't have a list scripted so just going off of thought, but these are the coaches that I feel are doing great things.

 

Cael, JRob, Koll, J. Smith, Brands plural, Flynn, Hahn, B. Smith, Eggum, Schwab, Kish, Cunningham, Manning, Snyder, Perry, Borrelli, Guerrero, Pariano. Probably a good chance that I left out several people that I would have included. Why I include so many? Mainly because I feel if you put any of them in identical situations(same school, same recruits, same support, etc.) that the results would be very similar for all of the coaches. A very hypothetical statement that has no way to be proven true or false, but something that I believe. I don't look at results in a vacuum and I understand that there are way more determining factors to a wrestlers success than just the head coach. That is why I feel if given the exact same situation it would result in very similar results. Therfore; due to their different situations, what is great for Cael or JRob is different than what is great for Flynn or Kish.

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I will jump in late...... I think that a great coach is highly dependent on who he has in the room both recruit wise and assistant wise. We can not give all coaches the same recruits etc...so much of coaching success goes beyond the head coaches abiliity to teach the sport. Surely when programs select a head coach they are looking beyond simply their ability to teach the X and Os of the sport.

 

I will add that Cael's success has been slighted by those pushing his high end recruits and I have notice on D1's recruiting rewind that he has a great record of of maintaining and improving a recruits status while wrestling at PSU and many of the high end recruits that enrolled at other programs had less than stellar results as well. That is not to say that he has not had failures either.....Cyler and Moeller at ISU didn't get it done in Caels early years and Jake Kemmer at PSU. According to the D1 list it is just as likely for a low or unranked wrestler to jump into the rankings as a ranked recruit to disappear.

 

Add to that that few of the very top recruits seem to be at the top when done....so a great coach has to have had more than a little effect on the top recruits achieving their goals!!

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This thread is rather short sighted.

 

Performance on the mat is all well and good, yet has anyone thought about Graduation results? They go to college to get an education. Wrestling should be secondary. In these discussions we should also be calculating the graduation results as well.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

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This thread is rather short sighted.

 

Performance on the mat is all well and good, yet has anyone thought about Graduation results? They go to college to get an education. Wrestling should be secondary. In these discussions we should also be calculating the graduation results as well.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

 

I have to disagree with you in certain circumstances. If the wrestler received any scholarship or financial aid TO WRESTLE for the college he was/is, first and foremost, a wrestler.

 

Now he is required to maintain his eligibility while he is wrestling. That requires him to have the necessary GPA and be on pace to graduate in the 5 year time frame. With that said, nearly all 5 year, 4 year starters achieve the necessary credits to graduate simply due to having to maintain the 12 credit minimum(or equivalent in quarterly or 1/3 schools) per semester.

 

What I find impressive is what schools like Stanford and Northwestern do. Not only do they produce good wrestlers but they have kids hold above average GPA's at elite(Education) universities in top notch majors while still performing on the mat. This type of recruiting impresses me as much, if not more so, as the type Sanderson has done.

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Superold -

 

Let's pretend that Brands, Sanderson, JSmith and JRob have never won a team championship before and put them coaching new teams. Their new teams only have funding for two scholarships and two assistants - no S&C coach, no admin assts., no resident club, etc. Just the three guys doing everything for the whole program.

 

Do they still win a national championship in that setting? If not, then I guess those guys wouldn't be great coaches.

 

Point being, there is a lot more than just coaching that goes on to win a national championship.

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This thread is rather short sighted.

 

Performance on the mat is all well and good, yet has anyone thought about Graduation results? They go to college to get an education. Wrestling should be secondary. In these discussions we should also be calculating the graduation results as well.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

 

I have to disagree with you in certain circumstances. If the wrestler received any scholarship or financial aid TO WRESTLE for the college he was/is, first and foremost, a wrestler.

 

Now he is required to maintain his eligibility while he is wrestling. That requires him to have the necessary GPA and be on pace to graduate in the 5 year time frame. With that said, nearly all 5 year, 4 year starters achieve the necessary credits to graduate simply due to having to maintain the 12 credit minimum(or equivalent in quarterly or 1/3 schools) per semester.

 

What I find impressive is what schools like Stanford and Northwestern do. Not only do they produce good wrestlers but they have kids hold above average GPA's at elite(Education) universities in top notch majors while still performing on the mat. This type of recruiting impresses me as much, if not more so, as the type Sanderson has done.

 

Couldn't disagree with you more. The vast, vast, vast majority of D1 wrestlers won't make a dime as a wrestler. All the guys I wrestled with (well, nearly all) were pretty serious students who used a talent in wrestling to open academic doors, not the other way around. If you feel that way, you went to the wrong school.

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This thread is rather short sighted.

 

Performance on the mat is all well and good, yet has anyone thought about Graduation results? They go to college to get an education. Wrestling should be secondary. In these discussions we should also be calculating the graduation results as well.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

 

I have to disagree with you in certain circumstances. If the wrestler received any scholarship or financial aid TO WRESTLE for the college he was/is, first and foremost, a wrestler.

 

Now he is required to maintain his eligibility while he is wrestling. That requires him to have the necessary GPA and be on pace to graduate in the 5 year time frame. With that said, nearly all 5 year, 4 year starters achieve the necessary credits to graduate simply due to having to maintain the 12 credit minimum(or equivalent in quarterly or 1/3 schools) per semester.

 

What I find impressive is what schools like Stanford and Northwestern do. Not only do they produce good wrestlers but they have kids hold above average GPA's at elite(Education) universities in top notch majors while still performing on the mat. This type of recruiting impresses me as much, if not more so, as the type Sanderson has done.

 

Couldn't disagree with you more. The vast, vast, vast majority of D1 wrestlers won't make a dime as a wrestler. All the guys I wrestled with (well, nearly all) were pretty serious students who used a talent in wrestling to open academic doors, not the other way around. If you feel that way, you went to the wrong school.

 

Can you say, "Reading Comprehension?" I ONLY was referring to those ON scholarship or receiving aid TO WRESTLE. They are BY DEFINITION wrestlers for the University FIRST. I am not arguing with why they wrestled. I am arguing how they are PERCEIVED by the University and MOST coaches.

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What I find impressive is what schools like Stanford and Northwestern do. Not only do they produce good wrestlers but they have kids hold above average GPA's at elite(Education) universities in top notch majors while still performing on the mat. This type of recruiting impresses me as much, if not more so, as the type Sanderson has done.

You know, I was actually thinking about these very two schools earlier today and the distinct number of advantages they have when it comes to building a successful sports program(same could be said of Duke although their location is poor for wrestling). If the administration of these schools decided to fully commit to having a championship program, they would likely be able to do so in just a couple years.

 

Although, I agree what they do in the absence of unbridled support from the administration is impressive.

 

 

As a side note, I believe Stanford is the most successful sports school in the country most years.

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Couldn't disagree with you more. The vast, vast, vast majority of D1 wrestlers won't make a dime as a wrestler. All the guys I wrestled with (well, nearly all) were pretty serious students who used a talent in wrestling to open academic doors, not the other way around. If you feel that way, you went to the wrong school.

 

Can you say, "Reading Comprehension?" I ONLY was referring to those ON scholarship or receiving aid TO WRESTLE. They are BY DEFINITION wrestlers for the University FIRST. I am not arguing with why they wrestled. I am arguing how they are PERCEIVED by the University and MOST coaches.

 

My reading comprehension is just fine, I focused on academics while in school. I, and many of my teammates, did in fact receive scholarship money to wrestle. That in no way, shape or form made us wrestlers first. We were all students first, with an ability to earn money by wrestling. Frankly, given the time put in compared to the value of scholarship, most of us were "underpaid".

I stand by my original statement. I identified as a student first, wrestler second. Most of my teammates felt the same way.

When you say "by definition", can you state who came up with that definition?

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Couldn't disagree with you more. The vast, vast, vast majority of D1 wrestlers won't make a dime as a wrestler. All the guys I wrestled with (well, nearly all) were pretty serious students who used a talent in wrestling to open academic doors, not the other way around. If you feel that way, you went to the wrong school.

 

Can you say, "Reading Comprehension?" I ONLY was referring to those ON scholarship or receiving aid TO WRESTLE. They are BY DEFINITION wrestlers for the University FIRST. I am not arguing with why they wrestled. I am arguing how they are PERCEIVED by the University and MOST coaches.

 

My reading comprehension is just fine, I focused on academics while in school. I, and many of my teammates, did in fact receive scholarship money to wrestle. That in no way, shape or form made us wrestlers first. We were all students first, with an ability to earn money by wrestling. Frankly, given the time put in compared to the value of scholarship, most of us were "underpaid".

I stand by my original statement. I identified as a student first, wrestler second. Most of my teammates felt the same way.

When you say "by definition", can you state who came up with that definition?

 

You were getting "PAID" or, more accurately, getting a discount, to attend the college TO WRESTLE. You would NOT have been getting said compensation if you were ONLY a student. I am completely content with you considering yourself a student first. In fact, I applaud you for it. I am simply pointing out that money isn't just given out without expectations in return. The university expects you to graduate. It expects EVERY student to graduate. However, the university gives money to the athletes it expects to produce AS athletes.

 

You can attempt to be "p.c." all you want and say they are all student-athletes(with emphasis on student first), but believe me(especially in revenue sports) the scholarship athlete is followed more by the university and coaches for how he does in the sport than (as long as he maintains his eligibility) in the classroom.

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Playing basketball for Kentucky, or football for Alabama, then sure I agree that you're not a student. You're there for the sport (and pretend to be a student).

If you're a wrestler for nearly any D1 school, you're a student first. Yes, there are expectations, but ultimately you should focus on academics, as there's no future in wrestling.

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