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Superold -

 

Let's pretend that Brands, Sanderson, JSmith and JRob have never won a team championship before and put them coaching new teams. Their new teams only have funding for two scholarships and two assistants - no S&C coach, no admin assts., no resident club, etc. Just the three guys doing everything for the whole program.

 

Do they still win a national championship in that setting? If not, then I guess those guys wouldn't be great coaches.

 

Point being, there is a lot more than just coaching that goes on to win a national championship.

 

For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

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For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

 

why bother commenting then if that's all you want to deal with? we can all count Cael's ringz. it would be a very boring thread if we all stopped the greatness discussion after figuring out which coaches won NCAA championships.

 

i think there is more to being a great coach then NCAA titles. i even think you can be a great coach without being in charge of a D1 program. it all depends on each unique program and what the coach does with it.

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Superold -

 

Let's pretend that Brands, Sanderson, JSmith and JRob have never won a team championship before and put them coaching new teams. Their new teams only have funding for two scholarships and two assistants - no S&C coach, no admin assts., no resident club, etc. Just the three guys doing everything for the whole program.

 

Do they still win a national championship in that setting? If not, then I guess those guys wouldn't be great coaches.

 

Point being, there is a lot more than just coaching that goes on to win a national championship.

 

For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

In reality, Cael coached the best team in college wrestling this past year. Sbdude's hypotheticals serve the purpose of pointing out the logical fallacy of equating this to being the best coach.

 

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion.

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Playing basketball for Kentucky, or football for Alabama, then sure I agree that you're not a student. You're there for the sport (and pretend to be a student).

If you're a wrestler for nearly any D1 school, you're a student first. Yes, there are expectations, but ultimately you should focus on academics, as there's no future in wrestling.

 

You are arguing from the student's viewpoint. Again, I 100% agree with you. The student should take advantage of any discount he gets to make sure he gets his education.

 

The school and coaches, however, will often disagree with you. They may not say so in public for everyone to hear, but trust me they are more concerned with ROI than if you graduate. As I said, they ALREADY expect you to graduate. This is implied by the requirements to keep your eligibility. They are not paying for you to graduate. They are paying for you to be an athlete at their institution. In turn, the coach is not, first and foremost, being paid to make sure you graduate. If that were the case they are paying way over market value for a Glorified Tutor. They expect YOU to abide by the necessary terms. They even give you extra means to achieve it by preferred scheduling and easier access to tutors.

 

Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly think the University, A.D. and coaches would consider an athlete on scholarship with a 4.0 GPA in Mechanical Engineering who couldn't qualify for the NCAA tournament more of a success than a 4x AA with a GPA of 2.1 in General Studies?

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Superold -

 

Let's pretend that Brands, Sanderson, JSmith and JRob have never won a team championship before and put them coaching new teams. Their new teams only have funding for two scholarships and two assistants - no S&C coach, no admin assts., no resident club, etc. Just the three guys doing everything for the whole program.

 

Do they still win a national championship in that setting? If not, then I guess those guys wouldn't be great coaches.

 

Point being, there is a lot more than just coaching that goes on to win a national championship.

 

For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

 

But, you have at least implied, if not outright stated that to be a great coach, you have to win a national championship. Then you agree that there is a lot more to winning a national championship than coaching. You can't have it both ways.

 

If we transplant any of those 4 coaches to a school with minimal funding and support, they aren't winning a national championship. BUT, their coaching abilities haven't changed, they are still the same coach they are right now But according to your definition, they wouldn't be a great coach because they lack a national championship.

 

My point is, if he was in a different situation without the resources and support he has now, and not winning NCs, then he would still be a great coach. And given that, I think there are other coaches out there that aren't winning NCs but still doing a great job.

 

And I'm not knocking any of those coaches, especially Cael. I think he is a great coach and would be a great coach whether he is winning national championships or not.

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Playing basketball for Kentucky, or football for Alabama, then sure I agree that you're not a student. You're there for the sport (and pretend to be a student).

If you're a wrestler for nearly any D1 school, you're a student first. Yes, there are expectations, but ultimately you should focus on academics, as there's no future in wrestling.

 

You are arguing from the student's viewpoint. Again, I 100% agree with you. The student should take advantage of any discount he gets to make sure he gets his education.

 

The school and coaches, however, will often disagree with you. They may not say so in public for everyone to hear, but trust me they are more concerned with ROI than if you graduate. As I said, they ALREADY expect you to graduate. This is implied by the requirements to keep your eligibility. They are not paying for you to graduate. They are paying for you to be an athlete at their institution. In turn, the coach is not, first and foremost, being paid to make sure you graduate. If that were the case they are paying way over market value for a Glorified Tutor. They expect YOU to abide by the necessary terms. They even give you extra means to achieve it by preferred scheduling and easier access to tutors.

 

Let me ask you a question. Do you honestly think the University, A.D. and coaches would consider an athlete on scholarship with a 4.0 GPA in Mechanical Engineering who couldn't qualify for the NCAA tournament more of a success than a 4x AA with a GPA of 2.1 in General Studies?

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and unfortunately you're probably right in some cases. That said, I think in terms of non rev sports, most University leaders would prefer the outstanding student more than the NQ/AA in wrestling. The AD? The wrestling coach? Probably not fair to paint with a broad brush, as they each have different circumstances.

My parents made me choose a program based on the best opportunity for academics first/wrestling second. I'll be the same way should it come to that with my son.

I can tell you that the coaches that I were exposed to (both my own, and some I knew through buddies who wrestled), would go out of their way to support the guys they gave the most money to. If they sank a bunch of scholarship money into a guy near your weight, you had your work cut out for you because they wanted that return on investment (even if they had a better wrestler fall into their lap).

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This thread is rather short sighted.

 

Performance on the mat is all well and good, yet has anyone thought about Graduation results? They go to college to get an education. Wrestling should be secondary. In these discussions we should also be calculating the graduation results as well.

 

 

Ocho, you asked "Can we all agree that there are a lot of great college coaches", I responded saying that no, we can't all agree on that. There's no one outside of the 4 I mentioned that I would even consider putting in the great category. Not Koll, Borelli, Flynn or anyone else.

 

I have to disagree with you in certain circumstances. If the wrestler received any scholarship or financial aid TO WRESTLE for the college he was/is, first and foremost, a wrestler.

Now he is required to maintain his eligibility while he is wrestling. That requires him to have the necessary GPA and be on pace to graduate in the 5 year time frame. With that said, nearly all 5 year, 4 year starters achieve the necessary credits to graduate simply due to having to maintain the 12 credit minimum(or equivalent in quarterly or 1/3 schools) per semester.

 

What I find impressive is what schools like Stanford and Northwestern do. Not only do they produce good wrestlers but they have kids hold above average GPA's at elite(Education) universities in top notch majors while still performing on the mat. This type of recruiting impresses me as much, if not more so, as the type Sanderson has done.

 

He is a student 1st. If not, he'll get no money to wrestle. Gotta be a student first B4 you get the dough. Thus ... the term Student / Athlete.

 

He may be a wrestler, yet he has to enroll in the school as a student, before he is an athlete for that institution.

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That's why ncaa titles should be the #1 criteria on any meaningful list of best ncaa coaches

 

Gable 15

Gallagher 11

Griffith 8

Roderick 7

Nichols 6

Smith 5

Sanderson 4

JRob 3

Brands 3

Zalesky 3

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So it appears Smith is the best current coach based on ur criteria. Or do u only take into account recent success? If so, does that mean Tom Ryan LEEP frogs Cael to become the best coach in college if his team wins it all next year? Just trying to get the criteria straight.

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Sbdude's hypotheticals serve the purpose of pointing out the logical fallacy of equating this to being the best coach.

 

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion.

 

Logical fallacy? May I ask which law of logic that I violated BigRedMachine? I can come up with a ton of difficult-to-answer and/or nonsensical hypotheticals too. It's not that difficult.

 

 

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion

 

Cael may be the worst in the business. Gable may be one of the worst ever. It's impossible to argue that that's not the case considering the numerous variables. It's impossible to come to an objective conclusion.... We can easily take it down that road, but why bother?

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But, you have at least implied, if not outright stated that to be a great coach, you have to win a national championship. Then you agree that there is a lot more to winning a national championship than coaching. You can't have it both ways.

 

If we transplant any of those 4 coaches to a school with minimal funding and support, they aren't winning a national championship. BUT, their coaching abilities haven't changed, they are still the same coach they are right now But according to your definition, they wouldn't be a great coach because they lack a national championship.

And given that, I think there are other coaches out there that aren't winning NCs but still doing a great job.

 

Yes, to me, the only way you can be a great coach is if you win national titles. I stand by that.

 

My point is, if he was in a different situation without the resources and support he has now, and not winning NCs, then he would still be a great coach.

 

I disagree, I wouldn't consider him a great coach if that situation was a reality.

 

Sbdude, do you really want to enter into the land of hypotheticals? If you really want to, I can come up with a ton of strange "what ifs" and you can try to answer them. Just let me know.

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So it appears Smith is the best current coach based on ur criteria. Or do u only take into account recent success? If so, does that mean Tom Ryan LEEP frogs Cael to become the best coach in college if his team wins it all next year? Just trying to get the criteria straight.

 

Ocho, when did I say that national titles was the only thing that I consider ocho? Especially when it comes to best current coach.? Of course recency is a factor when talking about the current best. And feel free to put forth your criteria for best coach too ocho.

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so youre a great coach once you win a national championship and not great until you do. pretty boring criteria if you ask me. anyone can look up the list of team trophies and find the great coaches. id like to know who the great coaches are before they win a NC.

------

 

That is correct. The logic of who wins a national championship is all that matters.

 

Jim Gibbons was a great coach at ISU. He won a team title, and prevented Iowa from getting their 10th consecutive. Then ISU went into a nose dive, never winning another since under mediocre coaches - Douglas, Cael and Jackson.

 

So clearly Cael is the greatest coach today, because he has won national championships, except when at ISU, where he.... oh wait.... nevermind.

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so youre a great coach once you win a national championship and not great until you do. pretty boring criteria if you ask me. anyone can look up the list of team trophies and find the great coaches. id like to know who the great coaches are before they win a NC.

------

 

That is correct. The logic of who wins a national championship is all that matters.

 

Jim Gibbons was a great coach at ISU. He won a team title, and prevented Iowa from getting their 10th consecutive. Then ISU went into a nose dive, never winning another since under mediocre coaches - Douglas, Cael and Jackson.

 

So clearly Cael is the greatest coach today, because he has won national championships, except when at ISU, where he.... oh wait.... nevermind.

 

 

Rossel3, Cael didn't become the best coach until he started winning the national championships at PSU. Gable didn't become the best coach until he started winning at Iowa. Is that a problem?

 

Didn't Jordan Burroughs eventually become the best wrestler in college after not even making AA as a freshman? Do you disagree with that?

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Sbdude's hypotheticals serve the purpose of pointing out the logical fallacy of equating this to being the best coach.

 

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion.

 

Logical fallacy? May I ask which law of logic that I violated BigRedMachine? I can come up with a ton of difficult-to-answer and/or nonsensical hypotheticals too. It's not that difficult.

The hypothetical serves to highlight your reduction fallacy, but I would also peg you for affirming the consequent.

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion

 

Cael may be the worst in the business. Gable may be one of the worst ever. It's impossible to argue that that's not the case considering the numerous variables. It's impossible to come to an objective conclusion.... We can easily take it down that road, but why bother?

Well, quite frankly, you are stating your opinion as fact. You may believe Cael is the best coach, but with so many variables that a coach can't really control, its near impossible to state that one coach is undeniably the best.

 

On the other hand, David Taylor was undeniably the best 165 lber this year. The reason you can say this about a wrestler but not a coach is as follows: The factors that affect a wrestler (practice partners, natural ability, etc.) generally affect his skill at wrestling and therefore his ability to win. However, many major factors that affect a coach (administrative support, location, desirability of school) do not affect the coaches inherent skill, yet they still tremendously affect his ability to win. For this reason, I can try to account for the factors and formulate an opinion, but it's pointless to state anything as fact unless it truly is indisputable (e.g. a coach creating a championship program with zero administrative support at a no-nome school located in a wrestling deadzone.)

 

If I had an award to give out this year: Personally, I would give it to Flynn.

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so youre a great coach once you win a national championship and not great until you do. pretty boring criteria if you ask me. anyone can look up the list of team trophies and find the great coaches. id like to know who the great coaches are before they win a NC.

------

 

That is correct. The logic of who wins a national championship is all that matters.

 

Jim Gibbons was a great coach at ISU. He won a team title, and prevented Iowa from getting their 10th consecutive. Then ISU went into a nose dive, never winning another since under mediocre coaches - Douglas, Cael and Jackson.

 

So clearly Cael is the greatest coach today, because he has won national championships, except when at ISU, where he.... oh wait.... nevermind.

 

 

Rossel3, Cael didn't become the best coach until he started winning the national championships at PSU. Gable didn't become the best coach until he started winning at Iowa. Is that a problem?

 

Didn't Jordan Burroughs eventually become the best wrestler in college after not even making AA as a freshman? Do you disagree with that?

False analogy! :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Rossel3, Cael didn't become the best coach until he started winning the national championships at PSU. Gable didn't become the best coach until he started winning at Iowa. Is that a problem?

 

Didn't Jordan Burroughs eventually become the best wrestler in college after not even making AA as a freshman? Do you disagree with that?

 

coaches and wrestlers are a bad comparison imo. pick any sport, how much of the success of the team is the coach responsible for and how much of it is the players? or the organization behind the team? wrestling is no different.

 

could be you are about to become a great coach, but then half your team gets food poisoning on the wrong weekend and then you never become a great coach.

 

but whatever, just another non-real hypothetical. all that matters is titles. conversation over - we can all log off now.

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Sbdude's hypotheticals serve the purpose of pointing out the logical fallacy of equating this to being the best coach.

 

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion.

 

Logical fallacy? May I ask which law of logic that I violated BigRedMachine? I can come up with a ton of difficult-to-answer and/or nonsensical hypotheticals too. It's not that difficult.

The hypothetical serves to highlight your reduction fallacy, but I would also peg you for affirming the consequent.

Cael may be the best in the business. Then again, he may not be. Without accounting for all the numerous variables it is impossible to come to an objective conclusion

 

Cael may be the worst in the business. Gable may be one of the worst ever. It's impossible to argue that that's not the case considering the numerous variables. It's impossible to come to an objective conclusion.... We can easily take it down that road, but why bother?

Well, quite frankly, you are stating your opinion as fact. You may believe Cael is the best coach, but with so many variables that a coach can't really control, its near impossible to state that one coach is undeniably the best.

 

On the other hand, David Taylor was undeniably the best 165 lber this year. The reason you can say this about a wrestler but not a coach is as follows: The factors that affect a wrestler (practice partners, natural ability, etc.) generally affect his skill at wrestling and therefore his ability to win. However, many major factors that affect a coach (administrative support, location, desirability of school) do not affect the coaches inherent skill, yet they still tremendously affect his ability to win. For this reason, I can try to account for the factors and formulate an opinion, but it's pointless to state anything as fact unless it truly is indisputable (e.g. a coach creating a championship program with zero administrative support at a no-nome school located in a wrestling deadzone.)

 

If I had an award to give out this year: Personally, I would give it to Flynn.

 

Technically speaking, it's not undeniable that David Taylor was the best 165lber this year. You can make a very, very, convincing case, but it's still going to be short of fact in a strict sense. And you seem to be implying that Taylor is the best because of his skill, but can you really prove that he's more skilled than every other 165lber?

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For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

 

why bother commenting then if that's all you want to deal with? we can all count Cael's ringz. it would be a very boring thread if we all stopped the greatness discussion after figuring out which coaches won NCAA championships.

 

i think there is more to being a great coach then NCAA titles. i even think you can be a great coach without being in charge of a D1 program. it all depends on each unique program and what the coach does with it.

 

Jaroslav, do you believe that Gable is the best ncaa wrestling coach ever? If so, why?

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For the record, I never said that there wasn't more than coaching that goes into winning a national championship.

 

I try to stay away from those type of hypotheticals as much as possible. I want to deal with reality. In reality, Cael is not in that situation. In reality, Cael is the best coach in college wrestling.

 

why bother commenting then if that's all you want to deal with? we can all count Cael's ringz. it would be a very boring thread if we all stopped the greatness discussion after figuring out which coaches won NCAA championships.

 

i think there is more to being a great coach then NCAA titles. i even think you can be a great coach without being in charge of a D1 program. it all depends on each unique program and what the coach does with it.

 

Jaroslav, do you believe that Gable is the best ncaa wrestling coach ever? If so, why?

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I'm a bit distracted at the moment. I may not be able to answer/respond to any posts for a while. In the meantime, I'd appreciate if you guys (BigRedMachine, Jaroslav, Sbdude, Rossel3 etc.) come up with your best, and when I return, I'll answer what you have come up with against my position. Of course, I will have questions to ask you all as well. Just so you know, I do plan on taking us very, very, very, deep into the world of hypothetical/fantasy situations since that seems to be where a few of you want to go. Get ready to put on your thinking caps gentleman! In the meantime take care. :)

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Technically speaking, it's not undeniable that David Taylor was the best 165lber this year. You can make a very, very, convincing case, but it's still going to be short of fact in a strict sense. And you seem to be implying that Taylor is the best because of his skill, but can you really prove that he's more skilled than every other 165lber?

Technically it's not a fact, but perhaps it would qualify as a scientific theory :lol:

 

When I say skill in this context, I use it to mean "ability to win a wrestling match." So yes, I would say based on the results of the season he was the most skilled 165 lber.

 

Rossel3, Cael didn't become the best coach until he started winning the national championships at PSU. Gable didn't become the best coach until he started winning at Iowa. Is that a problem?

 

Didn't Jordan Burroughs eventually become the best wrestler in college after not even making AA as a freshman? Do you disagree with that?

False analogy!

 

How so?

Going back to what I said earlier. What defines a good wrestler is simply their ability to win wrestling matches. Until you are ready to win the Olympics, you are not the best freestyle wrestler (Not saying the better wrestler always win, but the best wrestler is the one who has the greatest overall ability to win. Makes sense?)

 

This same analogy does not hold true for coaches since I would be more apt to define quality coaching as "ability to get the most out of your team in the context of circumstances facing that team.

 

When Jordan Burroughs went from DNP as a freshman to eventually winning the Olympics, it was because he improved as a wrestler. When Cael moved from Iowa State to Penn State and instantly won a national title, I would argue it was primarily because his circumstances changed rather than his skill changed. I do think he is a very good coach, and his title are evidence as such: I just don't think they are what defines him as such.

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Ladies and Gentlemen,

 

I'm a bit distracted at the moment. I may not be able to answer/respond to any posts for a while. In the meantime, I'd appreciate if you guys (BigRedMachine, Jaroslav, Sbdude, Rossel3 etc.) come up with your best, and when I return, I'll answer what you have come up with against my position. Of course, I will have questions to ask you all as well. Just so you know, I do plan on taking us very, very, very, deep into the world of hypothetical/fantasy situations since that seems to be where a few of you want to go. Get ready to put on your thinking caps gentleman! In the meantime take care. :)

-----

With superold leaving for a while, does that mean HurricaneWrestling will be returning?

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