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Gable on US Open

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Interesting analysis of US Open, particularly the Taylor v Burroughs match.

 

I wasn't aware of exactly how things were scored, but according to Gable (starts ~ 5:10), Taylor got back exposure pts twice (2+2) with reverse cradle rolls, but no TD pts. Had Taylor hesitated a second (a risk in itself), he likely would've gotten 2 TD plus 2 back exposure each time, for a total of 8 pts instead of 4. He also noted Burroughs is not likely to get caught in that position again.

 

If interested, here is the link:

 

http://www.competitorsupreme.com/gable- ... ghs-match/

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To elaborate, under the new rules, a cradle on a grounded opponent who is on both knees should be 1 point. From listening to Rick Tucci's explanation of this on theopenmat's podcast, my understanding is that European referees would only award that point after the entire scoring sequence had finished. American refs would award the point, then wave it off if the cradle resulted in back exposure (2 points) or a conventional takedown (2 points).

 

If the cradle were locked up and then used to force the opponent onto his side, that would result in two points (for a takedown). After a pause in the action, rolls could then be initiated for further points.

 

If I recall, there have already been multiple threads on this, and various people were confused about why Taylor's move was not worth 4. It was not worth 4 because Burroughs was grounded throughout the roll. If Taylor had locked up a standing cradle and rolled through, it would have been worth 4.

 

Since pretty much everyone in the United States comes from a folkstyle background, these kinds of distinctions can be confusing or counterintuitive. I know it took me a long time after I had finished competing to feel like I had a grasp on the freestyle rules. The only way I could do it is by reading the rules over and over and watching matches with an eye on scoring the action.

 

current rules: (http://www.fila-official.com/images/FIL ... 14_Eng.pdf)

interview with Tucci: (http://audio.theopenmat.com/2014/04/sho ... pisode-53/)

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So Taylor should have been awarded 3 points for each cradle roll, 1 for the almost-takedown (whatever it's called) + 2 for the cradle exposure?

 

This is confusing.

No, he would only get 1 for the almost-takedown if there were no further points. This is similar to scoring on a front headlock roll through, then spinning around behind (which would score you only 2 points). You never get points for the exposure, then additional points for the takedown.

 

***

 

By the way, I haven't seen anyone specifically address whether a near cradle would be 1, but judging by the language in the rules, it should be:

 

"1 point

- To the wrestler who applies a correct hold while standing on the mat or in the "par terre" position with three points of contact but who does not secure control by passing behind."

 

Once Taylor either secures the takedown or the exposure, the 1 point move effectively disappears, because he would then have criteria for a higher-point move.

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Quanon:

 

What if Taylor had paused after forcing JB to his butt as he started the first backfall? Would that constitute takedown? He's not on his side, but he is off his base and on his left hip backside.

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Quanon:

 

What if Taylor had paused after forcing JB to his butt as he started the first backfall? Would that constitute takedown? He's not on his side, but he is off his base and on his left hip backside.

 

Do you mean what if Taylor paused while Burroughs was on his back?

 

As far as the freestyle rules are concerned, when Taylor rolled through the cradle, that was the equivalent of a takedown. Control was established and another takedown could not be scored unless Burroughs returned to his feet - the next score would have to be an exposure. The word "takedown" does not appear in the freestyle rules. In America, we call a scoring action a "takedown" when it reaches either of these criteria, both of which are worth 2:

 

"- To the wrestler who overcomes and then controls his opponent by passing behind (three points of contact: two arms and one knee or two knees and one arm or head).

- To the wrestler who brings his opponent to the ground and passes behind him, and while in this position holding him down with control (three points of contact: two arms and one knee or two knees and one arm or the head)."

 

You also get 2 for what we call "exposure":

 

"- To the wrestler who applies a correct hold while wrestling in the "par terre" position and places his opponent in a position of danger or in an instantaneous fall position.

- To the attacking wrestler whose opponent rolls onto his shoulders."

 

The bolded portion is what Taylor scored on twice during that match.

***

 

The rules used to have a five-second count for back points - hold the opponent on his back for five seconds, get an extra point. That rule is gone.

 

For a very short while (a year ago or so?) the first criteria above for "takedown" was worth 2 and the second criteria was worth 1. That was so confusing that FILA did away with it in short order.

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What about the 1pt. Ground takedown, and then 2pts. for exposure? I thought that first exchange between Burroughs and Taylor wasn't scored right.

I'm not sure what you're describing here.

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Danny is not complementary to Zeke at all.

 

It is time for US Wrestling to wake up and put Gable in charge as Czar of Freestyle wrestling. He will instill the fire our team needs. He will be able to push more wrestlers closer to the success Jordan Burroughs is having and Burroughs will become even more dominant.

 

Gable is the only one with the fire and determination needed to do the job.

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Quanon:

 

"Do you mean what if Taylor paused while Burroughs was on his back?"

 

No. He drove him to his left butt cheek and immediately executed the backfall.

 

"As far as the freestyle rules are concerned, when Taylor rolled through the cradle, that was the equivalent of a takedown. Control was established and another takedown could not be scored unless Burroughs returned to his feet..."

 

I understand that. I was questioning whether taking him off his base to his rear (which is an important part of successfully executing a backfall, but isn't necessarily a part of the roll through) would constitute a TD had he not been immediately exposed, like if he paused, or had time expired just before the roll?

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Quanon:

 

"Do you mean what if Taylor paused while Burroughs was on his back?"

 

No. He drove him to his left butt cheek and immediately executed the backfall.

 

"As far as the freestyle rules are concerned, when Taylor rolled through the cradle, that was the equivalent of a takedown. Control was established and another takedown could not be scored unless Burroughs returned to his feet..."

 

I understand that. I was questioning whether taking him off his base to his rear (which is an important part of successfully executing a backfall, but isn't necessarily a part of the roll through) would constitute a TD had he not been immediately exposed, like if he paused, or had time expired just before the roll?

I think you're describing the situation in the first roll through (I don't believe Burroughs hit his left cheek in the second). Maybe the moment you're describing is what Gable was referring to?

 

In my opinion, that situation would not be enough to constitute control for 2. Burroughs was still sitting upright at that point. Remember that you are supposed to "pass behind" your opponent for control.

 

If you break an opponent down to the opposite hip on a cradle, it's going to be called 2 every time (you're "behind" your opponent at that point). Otherwise, you're relying on the discretion of the referees.

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Quanon:

 

"Do you mean what if Taylor paused while Burroughs was on his back?"

 

No. He drove him to his left butt cheek and immediately executed the backfall.

 

"As far as the freestyle rules are concerned, when Taylor rolled through the cradle, that was the equivalent of a takedown. Control was established and another takedown could not be scored unless Burroughs returned to his feet..."

 

I understand that. I was questioning whether taking him off his base to his rear (which is an important part of successfully executing a backfall, but isn't necessarily a part of the roll through) would constitute a TD had he not been immediately exposed, like if he paused, or had time expired just before the roll?

I think you're describing the situation in the first roll through (I don't believe Burroughs hit his left cheek in the second). Maybe the moment you're describing is what Gable was referring to?

 

In my opinion, that situation would not be enough to constitute control for 2. Burroughs was still sitting upright at that point. Remember that you are supposed to "pass behind" your opponent for control.

 

If you break an opponent down to the opposite hip on a cradle, it's going to be called 2 every time (you're "behind" your opponent at that point). Otherwise, you're relying on the discretion of the referees.

Thanks. Yes, that was the sequence I was talking about. My experience has been that once the far hip is broke down the choice is to continue defending a "normal" cradle (backfall almost unstoppable at that point even if able to get chest to the mat, as long as far hip is turned down) or by turning in to defend against the backfall and risk being turned/pinned by standard cradle. That's where I think Gable was saying he could have secured/consolidated a TD before executing the turn.

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I don't understand why people don't understand the scoring. You can only score once per action. Even if Taylor hypothetically had a 1pt "correct hold" or 2pt "takedown," the immediate exposure overrides either of those scores and you get a 2pt exposure. Taylor could only score 4pts per roll through if he broke Burroughs down flat to his side or belly, waited for the mat judge to confirm a 2pt takedown, and then rolled for 2pt.

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