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The_Education

May 2014 FILA freestyle rankings

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After having seen Frank Molinaro ranked #6 in the world a couple of months ago, I wondered if there was something out of whack with FILA rankings. These newest rankings seem to confirm that - we now have:

 

Gomez #2 and Novachkov #4, but Metcalf not in top 20?

 

Varner not in top 20?

 

whathe?!?!

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Yeah, Fila just seems to pick and choose which tournaments/matches that they will use when coming up with these rankings. They are bizarre and off the wall. I can understand some of their reasoning, such as not having Varner ranked, since he has had so much off time. But then you have Metcalf, for example, who I'm fairly sure would thrash the "number 2" and "number 4" ranked wrestlers in the world, not even ranked. I could go on about how off they are on other rankings, but it's fairly obvious.

 

At the end of the day I think Fila just doesn't care about putting time and resources into rankings, which seems to be their trend with a great many of other things they are involved with. Sure, they "saved" wrestling until 2020, fixed the rules (somewhat, though Greco still has issues that need addressing), and put in a new president, but I see them slowly trending back to their old ways. Before we know it I am afraid they will be back to their cheese and wine meetings in Phuket. We, as a wrestling community, really need to stay on their backs to ensure this doesn't happen, and that our sport is not axed again after 2020.

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As rankings they are useless. Gomez at #2 at 65? Ok then...

 

These are more like "power rankings" showing which wrestlers have done well lately. At some weights they accidentally approach "real" rankings (ie 97) but others are way off.

 

What drives me the must crazy is when big stars come back after a lay off, win a smaller tournament and get put into the middle of the rankings. Seriously both Mijan Lopez and Soyrian- two all time greats in Greco- were ranked 10ish at some point without taking a loss. Fila needs to hype up their stars not give them nonsensical spots.

 

Not trying to be a jerk here but if someone sent me lists of recent results is do a better job.

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There's really only one tournament in the world each year where the top guys all compete against one another at their peak.

 

Since there's no real tour, the rankings will always be ridiculous, unless you just post last year's results from Worlds.

 

Rankings based on recent results might be useful if the sport were ever to move toward an ATP-style tour. If tournament results were related to a point system and financial payoffs, the top guys might show up at more than just their national tournament and worlds. This would be a way to build year-round hype and a fan base.

 

There have been times in the past few years where some of the best guys in Russia or Iran didn't even wrestle at nationals -- why risk it?

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This is just an example to the stupidity of FILA. An elementry school kid could have come up with better rankings. We need people who love this sport running this sport. This is just small thing but it shows that FILA does not know much about wrestling and who the wrestlers are and their history! If they did then the rankings would acutally mean something.

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There's really only one tournament in the world each year where the top guys all compete against one another at their peak.

 

Since there's no real tour, the rankings will always be ridiculous, unless you just post last year's results from Worlds.

 

Rankings based on recent results might be useful if the sport were ever to move toward an ATP-style tour. If tournament results were related to a point system and financial payoffs, the top guys might show up at more than just their national tournament and worlds. This would be a way to build year-round hype and a fan base.

 

There have been times in the past few years where some of the best guys in Russia or Iran didn't even wrestle at nationals -- why risk it?

 

nicely said. a professional tour would be great. i have doubts about FILA's ability to get anything done. maybe the wrestlers and their agents/sponsors could set up an athlete run circuit.

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How would you rank guys who compete maybe 2-3x a year on a the senior level and domestic events aren't reported properly? There's some glaring issues with them, but it's a start and the guy coordinating the rankings is a lifer in this sport and has more wrestling knowledge than most on this board. People complain about the U.S. Rankings ... now multiply that times the number of decent wrestling countries. Using recent events and actual competition is probably the starting point.

 

Here would be my charge ... start from scratch and do your own rankings WITHOUT looking what FILA has started with. You start your own rankings without starting by looking at someone else's.

 

See how well yours come out and see how top-heavy they are with Americans. These rankings leave a lot to be desired, but they're making an effort, slowly, but surely. Remember, prior to February 12, there were no world rankings.

 

So let's see them folks, don't look at FILA's rankings and all those international wrestling experts show us what you've got. We're used to seeing it in college wrestling, but let's see how much you guys actually know international guys beyond Americans and international medal winners.

 

And that INCLUDES Greco-Roman and Women's Freestyle. You can't do one style -- you have to do all three, from scratch.

 

Ready? Go.

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How would you rank guys who compete maybe 2-3x a year on a the senior level and domestic events aren't reported properly? There's some glaring issues with them, but it's a start and the guy coordinating the rankings is a lifer in this sport and has more wrestling knowledge than most on this board. People complain about the U.S. Rankings ... now multiply that times the number of decent wrestling countries. Using recent events and actual competition is probably the starting point.

 

Here would be my charge ... start from scratch and do your own rankings WITHOUT looking what FILA has started with. You start your own rankings without starting by looking at someone else's.

 

See how well yours come out and see how top-heavy they are with Americans. These rankings leave a lot to be desired, but they're making an effort, slowly, but surely. Remember, prior to February 12, there were no world rankings.

 

So let's see them folks, don't look at FILA's rankings and all those international wrestling experts show us what you've got. We're used to seeing it in college wrestling, but let's see how much you guys actually know international guys beyond Americans and international medal winners.

 

And that INCLUDES Greco-Roman and Women's Freestyle. You can't do one style -- you have to do all three, from scratch.

 

Ready? Go.

 

 

No. And this is such a cliche and worn out argument by those who do rankings. The old 'well, let's see what you can do' comeback is such crap and I will treat it as such. Simply put, it's not my job to do this so don't mind if I pass on spending all the time compiling rankings. Now, if you want to pay me to do it (like this person got paid to do) then absolutely, I will take the time. Jason, if you think the rankings are good then defend them on their merit. The fact that they didn't have rankings until last year doesn't give them a pass because a competent organization would have had them for the last 20.

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How would you rank guys who compete maybe 2-3x a year on a the senior level and domestic events aren't reported properly? There's some glaring issues with them, but it's a start and the guy coordinating the rankings is a lifer in this sport and has more wrestling knowledge than most on this board. People complain about the U.S. Rankings ... now multiply that times the number of decent wrestling countries. Using recent events and actual competition is probably the starting point.

 

Here would be my charge ... start from scratch and do your own rankings WITHOUT looking what FILA has started with. You start your own rankings without starting by looking at someone else's.

 

See how well yours come out and see how top-heavy they are with Americans. These rankings leave a lot to be desired, but they're making an effort, slowly, but surely. Remember, prior to February 12, there were no world rankings.

 

So let's see them folks, don't look at FILA's rankings and all those international wrestling experts show us what you've got. We're used to seeing it in college wrestling, but let's see how much you guys actually know international guys beyond Americans and international medal winners.

 

And that INCLUDES Greco-Roman and Women's Freestyle. You can't do one style -- you have to do all three, from scratch.

 

Ready? Go.

 

well one thing FILA could do is a poll of coaches and or journalists. since the rankings currently dont have real significance the no harm in trying it out.

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Did I say the rankings were good? No. I didn't. But it's so easy to look at a ranking without doing the work it takes to put them together and say "these suck." And when one person has the charge to do all three rankings, pointing out one of the three rankings as problematic in indicative of the problem. A year ago, what did we have? WORSE rankings. FILA didn't have rankings for about 12 years and they're starting over.

 

Consider this:

 

Is every country as prolific with their results as the U.S.? No. I have a very in-depth list of international wrestling sites, twitter accounts and contacts ... and of the 170-something international federations, I'd say maybe 20 have any semblance of press ops/results information available.

 

Reported results are what they've got to go on right now and I know first-hand FILA has asked those IFs to inform Bill May about those pertinent results. I know first-hand Bill is tracking down as much as he can.

 

Grand Prix events, major international events and Continental Championships seem to hold more weight. Without each country having a great network of results to report, and many of those tournaments aren't on the FILA calendar, you would be absolutely amazed how little international wrestling results are actually available to formulate.

 

If I started rankings from scratch, they'd suck probably more than FILA's because we look in different places and would weight things differently. I've also found the amount of bias towards their own athletes vs. looking at things from a top-down unbiased point of view. I know the Americans better than probably the journalists in Kazakhstan, so I'd push for more Metcalf, higher Dlagnev, things like that.

 

This isn't like HS and College rankings in the U.S. where information is much more readily available and a questionable ranking can be defended easily or vice versa.

 

I fully believe the FILA rankings are moving in the right direction. Are they great? No. It's a work in progress. It took me about a year to really get the H.S. rankings down back in 2005 when I was with InterMat because then, there wasn't nearly as much information available as there is now. International wrestling has tons of results even coaches and journalists aren't aware of because each national federation acts differently. They're funded differently.

 

We're spoiled in the U.S. on the amount of news we get from our senior level athletes compared to the rest of the world.

 

If it's not on the FILA calendar (as a licensed FILA event), there is little that can be done to get those results reported in a timely fashion -- or in English. A lot of PDF's don't work with translation software.

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What about the FILA database (Foeldeak)? Where do they get their info?

 

If there's no standardized results reporting system for FILA events, that kind of boggles the mind.

 

In any event, if a tournament isn't on the FILA calendar, then how significant would its impact on the rankings be anyway?

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What about the FILA database (Foeldeak)? Where do they get their info?

 

If there's no standardized results reporting system for FILA events, that kind of boggles the mind.

 

In any event, if a tournament isn't on the FILA calendar, then how significant would its impact on the rankings be anyway?

 

Foeldeak's database is technically independent of FILA, although there is a working relationship in some ways with World and Continental Championships. I talked with the inventor of the database and he made it his goal to get all the FILA calendar events (which require a FILA license) to be in the system. That only started around 2010. I had a conversation with him in Moscow about it. I know he updates the database quickly on events that are posted by FILA. I believe they export a format to him he can easily upload.

 

I believe there's a max number of FILA licensed tournaments a country can have in one year, excluding continental championships, so this is why things like the Minnesota Storm Holiday Cup wouldn't be in the FILA database. It also is a reason things like the U.S. Open wouldn't be in it.

 

FILA itself has a reporting requirement for World and Continental Championships, but the Grand Prix events and FILA-licensed events, often run without any FILA operations, so the results are on the tournament organizers. We know some countries do a much better job at this than others. We (in the U.S.) make sure the results are basically live. The same infrastructure isn't in place even in stronger wrestling countries. Turkey does a fantastic job with streaming, but results can be hit and miss -- then there's the translation.

 

A group of us (media types) had some conversations with some of the FILA press ops team on improvements and standardized reporting was one of those key topics. I believe a lot of the changes we're waiting on will take place after the elections.

 

It's no where near as bad now as it used to be, but there's still a LOT of room for improvement. Although we (in the U.S.) still have issues with reporting even our college events. There are cases where Division I schools wait a full day to issue or post a press release.

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I just looked at the FILA calendar. There are only 4 American events on it (Sunkist isn't there). They've changed the standards, I guess. It used to be that the FILA calendar had a ton of events on it, including events like Fargo.

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I could be wrong on this, but I believe Fargo used to be on the FILA calendar because it was used for international officials to work to move towards their upgrade. This was mostly in Greco, as Karri Toivola from Finland would be evaluating officials. Since the U.S. modified its rules, it's no longer an event foreign officials work to get upgrades. There's still a few officials who come in from Canada (and even South Africa) because they like working it and they get a bit more mat experience.

 

Sunkist hasn't been held the last two years. I think that might be one thing Zeke and Art are working on bringing back.

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I used to do rankings informally on twt. They were more limited than filas- top 10 mfs only- but I'll say they were better. I'll gladly do the same again if there is interest. Just need someone to link me to lists of results as I don't have endless results to search for them.

 

Btw I don't think the guy doing the rankings is stupid. I just disagree with his methodology. As quanon said world results are the gold standard and this needs to be reflected in rankings with head-to-head being #2. Winning the Schultz or the Oceana tournaments is a good accomplishment but unless you are knocking off world top 10 guys it shouldn't give you a world top 10 ranking.

 

My rankibgs will be debatable, like all rankings. I will welcome feedback. What I won't have is head-shaking rankings (Gomez 2, Lopez 10, etc) at least without explanation.

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What about the FILA database (Foeldeak)? Where do they get their info?

 

If there's no standardized results reporting system for FILA events, that kind of boggles the mind.

 

In any event, if a tournament isn't on the FILA calendar, then how significant would its impact on the rankings be anyway?

 

I remember last year Russian nationals results weren't considered which is one if the worlds must important tournaments IMO and affects many top guys.

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The US Open isn't in it? And last year the Russian Nationals weren't in it? While the US Open may not allow head to head US vs others, it at least gives you a measure of who is currently at the top for USA, and prevent mistakes that virtually anyone following wrestling could spot and say "that's crazy."

 

Not that I could make my own rankings from scratch, but seriously... an ounce of common sense might be helpful now and then.

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But then you have Metcalf, for example, who I'm fairly sure would thrash the "number 2" and "number 4" ranked wrestlers in the world, not even ranked. I could go on about how off they are on other rankings, but it's fairly obvious.

 

 

How are you so sure Metcalf would "thrash" Gomez?

 

Gomez is the Schultz Memorial No.2; CAC Games No.1; Dan Kolov No.1; and 2011 world silver medalist @ 60kg.

 

Metcalf is the Yarygin No.10 and US Open No. 1. He's also had some marquee international wins, but he's never won a match at worlds.

 

Personally, I would favor Gomez.

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1. Gomez is moving up a weight, and never was all that big for 60kg to begin with.

 

2. Gomez's style is very "American", and Metcalf has thrashed anyone with a remotely American style over the past year.

 

3. When Gomez placed second it was under a different set of rules, and he hasn't really impressed since...and even then, he had a very good draw. These new rules favor someone like Metcalf immensely because they bring conditioning and fatigue into consideration.

 

4. It's my opinion, based on what I have seen from both, and the above mentioned points. Take it or leave it.

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How are you so sure Metcalf would "thrash" Gomez?

 

Gomez is the Schultz Memorial No.2; CAC Games No.1; Dan Kolov No.1; and 2011 world silver medalist @ 60kg.

When Gomez placed second it was under a different set of rules, and he hasn't really impressed since...and even then, he had a very good draw.

 

At the 2014 Dave Schultz Memorial, Gomez placed second at 65kg. He lost to Molinaro 1-1 on criteria.

 

At the 2014 CAC Games, Gomez placed first at 65kg over world number 20 Hernan Guzman and Cuba's Lazaro Carbonell (who placed higher than Kellen Russell at the Cerro Pelado International in Feb 2014).

 

At the 2014 Dan Kolov, Gomez placed first at 65kg over 2013 world champ David Safaryan and 2014 Euro silver medalist and world number 3 Servet Coskun.

 

And Gomez has a world silver medal at 60kg. (By the way, how does a person get "a very good draw" at worlds?)

 

So I'm not sure what it takes to impress you, but Gomez sure has impressed me.

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Metcalf will beat Gomez by 6 or more points if they meet at Worlds, and if not, Metcalf will place higher than Gomez. That's my prediction. I don't see how I could be any clearer.

 

Losing to Molinaro to place second at Dave Shcultz does not really help your argument, but it does help mine.

 

So does the fact that Metcalf placed 2nd at the Yarygin and world cup in 2013. Metcalf has chosen to concentrate more on training in 2014 than go to smaller Fila tournaments, so we don't have any results, as of yet to go by, save the US open where he did thrash (beat very badly) everyone he faced. IMO Metcalf is on a whole different level than he has ever been in the past. He is also learning how to peak for the big show, as opposed to peaking at the beginning of the freestyle season, which is vital at this level.

 

You recieve an easier draw at Worlds when the other side of the bracket is full of studs(world champs and placers) and your side is not. Duh!

 

Edit: Typo

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I thought Safayrin injured out of the Kovlov. Did he actually wrestle?

 

Gomez didn't have that good a draw at worlds, he beat the consensus #2 guy from Azerbayjan at 60. He also beat Khusukov at another tournament. Great 60 kg wrestler. Still not convinced he's the #2 65, but if he legitimately beat out Safayran I'll change my mind.

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