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The ref/sport loses all credibility with the "defensive" pin

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1. A ref won't give you the takedown until you establish control, but he will give your opponent the pin while he has absolutely no control.

 

2. A ref will call start calling nearfall when the wrestler in control puts his opponent in a pinning position (shoulder breaks the 45-degree angle), but for the "defensive" pin he will not start calling nearfall when the wrestler in control gets close to pinning himself but will just watch and wait until his shoulders touch the mat to quickly call the pin.

 

Nice logic.

Nice demonstration of "The pin being the ultimate goal of wrestling."

Nice incoming excuses/justifications as to why a "defensive" pin is totally legit.

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So you have pinned yourself and want to blame it on the Official!

I believe most Officials will give the "defensive" fall more time than the standard 1 second fall. Quickly is inaccurate. The Official loses credibility if he doesn't make the call!

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I hate to agree with DF, but the wrestling being defensive falled should get some kind of warning that the fall is imminent. The defensive wrestler at least gets the "one" of a one count to realize that he's in critera, so the offensive wrestler should get a warning too.

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He's right. It's logically inconsistent that you can get pinned without a reversal or backs being counted first.

 

Along those same lines, a reversal should be worth three points. I never understood why this gets one less point when you end up in the same position as someone who gets an excape and TD. If anything it should get more points than an escape/TD to reward efficiency.

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He's right. It's logically inconsistent that you can get pinned without a reversal or backs being counted first.

 

Along those same lines, a reversal should be worth three points. I never understood why this gets one less point when you end up in the same position as someone who gets an excape and TD. If anything it should get more points than an escape/TD to reward efficiency.

 

 

I disagree, but without any data or solid reasoinging. Reversals should stay 2pt if only because I can explain "every time you go behind your opponent like this, you get 2pt" to beginners easier than adding "and if you do it when he's on top of you, you get 3pt!"

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So you have pinned yourself and want to blame it on the Official!

I believe most Officials will give the "defensive" fall more time than the standard 1 second fall. Quickly is inaccurate. The Official loses credibility if he doesn't make the call!

 

Still doesn't explain why refs don't start calling nearfall before they call the defensive pin. The offensive wrestler can have a cradle locked up for a long time with his own shoulders barely off the mat but the ref doesn't call any nearfalls against him. Instead he just waits for his shoulders to touch the mat as he leans back in the cradle so he can quickly call the defensive pin.

 

Let's call it for what it is....it has nothing to do with "fairness" or "rules are rules"...it's a power tripping thing.

 

"Hey everybody look how much authority I have since I can decide the guy who is clearly winning should lose if I want to."

 

Same kind of people who when they were in school would announce to the teacher that they had forgotten to assign homework right before class was dismissed.

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Every wrestler has been familiar with the risk of a defensive fall from the time they first learned to leg wrestle. And every wrestler has understood that the rules were that you can't earn near fall points from a neutral or non-control position. At least I though everybody knew that. You can argue about it, but that's the rule.

 

If you're in a position of control in a crab ride, or whatever, then you should have no trouble keeping your shoulders off the mat for a fraction of a second during any one second interval. I don't think its a surprise to the wrestler who is pinned that he was on his back. It is, I would concede, a surprise to those who get pinned when their shoulders touch for .4 or .5 seconds, but that's the same issue that I have with falls being called too quickly in normal circumstances. The ref's get excited and its over.

 

I do think that without the defensive fall you'll see a completely different type of leg wrestling. A number of the reversal moves work because you're threatening to pin the riding guy in a defensive fall. Take that possibility away and you'll see fewer reversals and escapes, and more leech-type riding. Of course you don't see as much today of the bridge-backs because the ref will throw up a five count on you as you try to pin the offensive wrestler. I think that rule ought to be changed, or enforced, since I don't think nearfall points are supposed to be awarded if the defensive wrestler is bridging back onto the offensive guy attempting to pin him.

 

If I have any gripes with refs, its certainly not the defensive fall. Its more the cheap tilts where points are awarded for breaking 90 degrees for a second and a half. To equate some of the scoring maneuvers that are rewarded today with the two points you get for a takedown is what's laughable.

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Still doesn't explain why refs don't start calling nearfall before they call the defensive pin. The offensive wrestler can have a cradle locked up for a long time with his own shoulders barely off the mat but the ref doesn't call any nearfalls against him. Instead he just waits for his shoulders to touch the mat as he leans back in the cradle so he can quickly call the defensive pin.

 

Let's call it for what it is....it has nothing to do with "fairness" or "rules are rules"...it's a power tripping thing.

 

 

DF, stop making cogent arguments and go back to trolling. I don't like agreeing with you.

 

One of my wrestlers "pinned himself" at Reno ToC one year in a nearside cradle. He did a Cael Sanderson finish that we call "open up" that involves falling to your side to get a 2 count before climbing back on top and working for the fall. We all thought that we WON the match by fall until the ref raised the other guys hand. Total power trip just to feel important.

 

I agree that we need defensive/neutral falls in wrestling. Someone earlier mentioned how a large part of getting of of leg and crab rides involves forcing the top guy to bail before he pins himself. However, there has to be a better.

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My wrestling partner got robbed of a place in the state finals (and likely a state title) in the state semifinals due to this crap. He was on top, going for a 2 on 1 tilt, and the ref was not even looking at his opponent (the guy being put to his back....duh ref!) to see if he broke the plane to get near fall. He was on the other side looking at top mans back. This would not even be called by a regular ref as a touch fall in freestyle...it was literally called that quick.

This ref was looking to make his mark in a big match, and was on a total power trip. He was not seen at states the next year. It kind of reminds me of those fat policemen (not all policemen) who are on a power trip, and think that badge gives them the right to write you a ticket, treat you like crap, etc... just because they can. Some people will just abuse any power that is given to them.

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So you have pinned yourself and want to blame it on the Official!

I believe most Officials will give the "defensive" fall more time than the standard 1 second fall. Quickly is inaccurate. The Official loses credibility if he doesn't make the call!

 

Still doesn't explain why refs don't start calling nearfall before they call the defensive pin. The offensive wrestler can have a cradle locked up for a long time with his own shoulders barely off the mat but the ref doesn't call any nearfalls against him. Instead he just waits for his shoulders to touch the mat as he leans back in the cradle so he can quickly call the defensive pin.

 

Let's call it for what it is....it has nothing to do with "fairness" or "rules are rules"...it's a power tripping thing.

 

"Hey everybody look how much authority I have since I can decide the guy who is clearly winning should lose if I want to."

 

Same kind of people who when they were in school would announce to the teacher that they had forgotten to assign homework right before class was dismissed.

 

 

100% Correct DF.

I know most of the posts you make are satirical and such but you are right on point here.

 

Defensive Pins are the dumbest thing in the sport. I frequently talk to officials about the fact that they are dumb and should be outlawed. Some kid doing Gymnastics Hand Bridge getting rewarded for getting torched and turned is a joke.

 

Defensive Pins should have at least a 5 Second Count to be called.

 

"A Rule is a Rule" people are dorks on this one if you ask me.

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If you put yourself in the "defensive pin" with your shoulders planted, it is often due to poor technique and you should be penalized.

 

Yes, however, why do we penalize the top wrestler more than the bottom wrestler? The NCAA rules penalize the bottom wrestler for going to his back with a nearfall count that at least warns him of an imminent fall. The rules require at least 1 second of a "fall situation", so if the ref starts counting nearfall, you know that you have at least 1 second to get off your back in most situations. The rules penalize the top wrestler by ending the match without warning. Can't we think of a simple rule change that will bring defensive fall situations more in line with nearfall criteria by giving the top wrestler some kind of warning?

 

Most of the time a defensive fall is obvious even to the wrestler getting pinned, but we've all seen matches end when the pinned wrestler justifiably had no clue why. A pin is a pin is a pin, but in 2014 defensive falls are becoming more like old school freestyle touch falls, or like the current 1pt "bad technique" exposure if you don't bridge through a turn. If my opponent does something to put me in a fall situations while I have the cradle locked, equity demands that the ref at least let me know that he's looking for a fall.

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