NCAA Wrestling Committee April Meeting Report

[SetonHallPirate 993]

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files ... 041514.pdf

 

Highlights:

 

1. A fourth coaches ranking being added the Monday following the national qualifiers.

2. The Big 12 no longer earning ANY pre-allocated qualifiers, regardless of the number of gold/silver standard wrestlers.

3. The Dual Component points being scaled back, to 5-10-15-20-25-30-35 (instead of 7-14-21-28-35-42-50).

 

Thoughts?

[Pinnum 846]

At-Large selections consist of only about four slots per weight. As a result, I suspect the Big 12 will merge with another conference or qualify through the West Regional. I wouldn't be surprised if the coaches asked the committee to remove their qualification in an effort to get the conference to allow them to go elsewhere.

 

All in all, everything looks good. The new points system seems reasonable.

[Pinnum 846]

Forgot to mention: I don't like the unattached can travel with their team decision. The rationale that it is in line with the spirit of the rule is completely wrong, in my opinion.

[Roadkill 75]

Pinnum-curious why you don't like the rule about Redshirts traveling on the same bus to an open tournament with the team? I can tell you as a parent of a red shirt this year--that was one of our biggest worries. He would wake up a 6 am for weight check-wrestle all day(most of those opens do not end until about 7 pm) and then have to drive 6 hours back to campus. One tournament he did not get back until 2 in the morning.

[Pinnum 846]

Pinnum-curious why you don't like the rule about Redshirts traveling on the same bus to an open tournament with the team? I can tell you as a parent of a red shirt this year--that was one of our biggest worries. He would wake up a 6 am for weight check-wrestle all day(most of those opens do not end until about 7 pm) and then have to drive 6 hours back to campus. One tournament he did not get back until 2 in the morning.

 

If I am a parent, as a redshirt, as a coach of a top program who often brings in elite recruits that I redshirt until they are needed, I love the rule. Who doesn't like a rule that personally benefits them?

 

In the spirit of college athletics, the spirit of the rationale for the original rule, and in keeping with the academic mission of colleges, I hate the rule.

 

I am an advocate for moving away from the redshirts can compete freely model opposed to the continuous expansion which just further helps the elite programs build stables of elite athletes.

[SetonHallPirate 993]

Forgot to mention: I don't like the unattached can travel with their team decision. The rationale that it is in line with the spirit of the rule is completely wrong, in my opinion.

Lesser of two evils, I get the feeling. Everybody thinks it's better to have those guys travel with the team than have a wrestler who just fought his way through an entire day's worth of wrestlebacks drive six hours and have run the risk of having the car go off the road because the driver is absolutely exhausted. That said, this same suggestion was brought up by the Wrestling Committee last year, and the Wrestling Committee was overruled.

[Roadkill 75]

Pinnum-curious why you don't like the rule about Redshirts traveling on the same bus to an open tournament with the team? I can tell you as a parent of a red shirt this year--that was one of our biggest worries. He would wake up a 6 am for weight check-wrestle all day(most of those opens do not end until about 7 pm) and then have to drive 6 hours back to campus. One tournament he did not get back until 2 in the morning.

 

If I am a parent, as a redshirt, as a coach of a top program who often brings in elite recruits that I redshirt until they are needed, I love the rule. Who doesn't like a rule that personally benefits them?

 

In the spirit of college athletics, the spirit of the rationale for the original rule, and in keeping with the academic mission of colleges, I hate the rule.

 

I am an advocate for moving away from the redshirts can compete freely model opposed to the continuous expansion which just further helps the elite programs build stables of elite athletes.

 

Ok, you are against redshirting--not traveling on the team bus if they are redshirting. And I feel my son is in keeping in line with the academic mission of college--as his team graduates all wrestlers in 4 years and the 5th year they are in grad school. Best of both worlds :)

[Pinnum 846]

Forgot to mention: I don't like the unattached can travel with their team decision. The rationale that it is in line with the spirit of the rule is completely wrong, in my opinion.

Lesser of two evils, I get the feeling. Everybody thinks it's better to have those guys travel with the team than have a wrestler who just fought his way through an entire day's worth of wrestlebacks drive six hours and have run the risk of having the car go off the road because the driver is absolutely exhausted. That said, this same suggestion was brought up by the Wrestling Committee last year, and the Wrestling Committee was overruled.

 

Yes, but the biggest issue is the reason that this is beneficial for athletes. The intent of the rule is that unattached athletes are just an every day joe off the street competing in an event. They are 'opens' and as a result can not turn away athletes even if they normally workout in a college room and are rostered. This leads to the question: why should college events be open to non-collegiate? And if unattached college athletes are just normal everyday people off the street with no affiliation to a school, why must they adhere to their individual OPC, or have their matches count in their opponent's official record forms which are used for the RPI and qualification, not to mention their season record, should they decide the pull the redshirt?

 

They play both sides of the fence when it comes to unattached wrestlers; in certain instances they are college athletes and in other instances they are not college athletes. The claim whatever is convenient.

 

And the biggest problem I have is that it reduces the parity between teams and leads to more athletes leaving the sport.

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,067]

sounds good to me. i can see both sides of the redshirt travel rule (just from this thread without looking anything up).

 

the dual component point scores are academic, but since the high point total was a common complaint i see no harm in lowering them.

[Cooch1 147]

What is the Director's Cup and how is it related to the model?

 

What's the reason for the scale back to 5-10, etc? How does this affect the Head Start complaint and was this an issue that was discussed at the meeting?

 

Why was there no "drawbacks" section like in your original post of the proposal? Have all the problems been solved so that there are no drawbacks such as the funding, schedule gap, short notice, etc.? Or is the committee refusing to admit there are problems that still need to be addressed?

[redblades 322]

At-Large selections consist of only about four slots per weight. As a result, I suspect the Big 12 will merge with another conference or qualify through the West Regional.

 

Actually, I think it's saying the AQ bids that would have been earned by Big 12 wrestlers will be put back into the at large pool:

 

"The number of Big 12 wrestlers who earn gold or silver standard will be subtracted from the pre-allocated allotment and all Big 12 wrestlers will go into the at-large pool (see Nonlegislative Item c)."

 

Strange, what this does, in effect, is make the Big 12 tournament completely irrelevant.

[Pinnum 846]

Pinnum-curious why you don't like the rule about Redshirts traveling on the same bus to an open tournament with the team? I can tell you as a parent of a red shirt this year--that was one of our biggest worries. He would wake up a 6 am for weight check-wrestle all day(most of those opens do not end until about 7 pm) and then have to drive 6 hours back to campus. One tournament he did not get back until 2 in the morning.

 

If I am a parent, as a redshirt, as a coach of a top program who often brings in elite recruits that I redshirt until they are needed, I love the rule. Who doesn't like a rule that personally benefits them?

 

In the spirit of college athletics, the spirit of the rationale for the original rule, and in keeping with the academic mission of colleges, I hate the rule.

 

I am an advocate for moving away from the redshirts can compete freely model opposed to the continuous expansion which just further helps the elite programs build stables of elite athletes.

 

Ok, you are against redshirting--not traveling on the team bus if they are redshirting. And I feel my son is in keeping in line with the academic mission of college--as his team graduates all wrestlers in 4 years and the 5th year they are in grad school. Best of both worlds :)

 

That is a win for you! Especially if you're on scholarship for all five years.

 

And I am not against the use of redshirt. I am just an advocate of them being applied in the same manner as basketball and football. If you need the year to develop them you take the year to develop but you can't expect to be afforded the opportunity to compete. Marketing of redshirting athletes really helps the elite programs as they promote the success of the redshirts in media releases.

 

If any athlete wants to compete right out of the gate then they should go somewhere where they fit into the lineup, just like every other sport does.

[SetonHallPirate 993]

At-Large selections consist of only about four slots per weight. As a result, I suspect the Big 12 will merge with another conference or qualify through the West Regional.

 

Actually, I think it's saying the AQ bids that would have been earned by Big 12 wrestlers will be put back into the at large pool:

 

"The number of Big 12 wrestlers who earn gold or silver standard will be subtracted from the pre-allocated allotment and all Big 12 wrestlers will go into the at-large pool (see Nonlegislative Item c)."

 

Strange, what this does, in effect, is make the Big 12 tournament completely irrelevant.

What redblades said. Will be strange to see an unbeaten Alex Dieringer needing an at-large bid to qualify for the NCAA Championships, but oh, well.

[Pinnum 846]

At-Large selections consist of only about four slots per weight. As a result, I suspect the Big 12 will merge with another conference or qualify through the West Regional.

 

Actually, I think it's saying the AQ bids that would have been earned by Big 12 wrestlers will be put back into the at large pool:

 

"The number of Big 12 wrestlers who earn gold or silver standard will be subtracted from the pre-allocated allotment and all Big 12 wrestlers will go into the at-large pool (see Nonlegislative Item c)."

 

Strange, what this does, in effect, is make the Big 12 tournament completely irrelevant.

 

Yes, it appears you're correct. I read it quickly and misunderstood. It appears that they are still granting the spot earned by a Big 12 athlete but the Big 12 athlete must compete against the at large pool to justify they deserve it.

 

Now, instead of allowing another Big 12 athlete to steal the bid, any athlete in the country that did not earn a bid is eligible to steal it from the Big 12 athlete.

 

I actually think this is a reasonable solution.

[paboom 204]

Not every school even allows redshirts. Even at Cornell their "greyshirts" cannot even practice with their team during the official NCAA season.

[Pinnum 846]

What is the Director's Cup and how is it related to the model?

 

What's the reason for the scale back to 5-10, etc? How does this affect the Head Start complaint and was this an issue that was discussed at the meeting?

 

Why was there no "drawbacks" section like in your original post of the proposal? Have all the problems been solved so that there are no drawbacks such as the funding, schedule gap, short notice, etc.? Or is the committee refusing to admit there are problems that still need to be addressed?

 

The Director's cup is the award for best overall athletic department in the country. It uses a point system to award points. The more teams your athletic department has with national success, the more points you get. http://www.nacda.com/directorscup/nacda ... oring.html

 

This shows the debate: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nac ... coring.pdf If duals are used for the Director's cup then the 12 team bracket will award points but if the current non-bracket is used then the points are awarded based on the non-bracket 65 team field.

 

You are confusing the NCAA Championship Committee's proposal with SHP's Proposal released by Intermat. Two different groups, two different proposals, but a lot of overlap.

[Cooch1 147]

Pinnum,

I realize the difference, but what about similarity of concerns? Do the people behind the NCAA Championship Committee's proposal "talk" to other people in wrestling beyond their own group?

Thanks

[ocho 0]

I was under the impression that the big12 and the ACC were combining for a qualifying tournament anyway? Did that plan backfire?

 

I like that they decreased the points for the dual portion but I would like to see a little more of a decrease so places 8th-1st receive the following points. 5,6,7,8,10,14,16,20

 

All other qualifiers that fail to place in the top 8 receive 1 placement point. Just my opinion, but the updated scoring is closer to correct than the 50 points previously discussed.

[PhiferFuqua 187]

Not every school even allows redshirts. Even at Cornell their "greyshirts" cannot even practice with their team during the official NCAA season.

 

I'm not sure what point you're making, but the "Cornell 'greyshirts'" aren't Cornell students. I would think the lawyers and insurance companies might have something to say about them practicing with the team. They might have something to say about them traveling with the team, too, regardless of what the NCAA decides.

[novalion 5]

Not every school even allows redshirts. Even at Cornell their "greyshirts" cannot even practice with their team during the official NCAA season.

 

Is that true because the NCAA rules don't say that. However, the Ivy rules may say that.

 

As to the Big 12 it sounds like what the Committee is trying to do is force the Big 12 to merge with another conference to form a viable qualifying event.

[paboom 204]

Not every school even allows redshirts. Even at Cornell their "greyshirts" cannot even practice with their team during the official NCAA season.

 

I'm not sure what point you're making, but the "Cornell 'greyshirts'" aren't Cornell students. I would think the lawyers and insurance companies might have something to say about them practicing with the team. They might have something to say about them traveling with the team, too, regardless of what the NCAA decides.

 

 

I was trying to illustrate the huge disparity that there currently is among Division 1 wrestling programs while everyone daydreams of having true parity or the addition of Division 1 programs.

[SetonHallPirate 993]

Not every school even allows redshirts. Even at Cornell their "greyshirts" cannot even practice with their team during the official NCAA season.

 

I'm not sure what point you're making, but the "Cornell 'greyshirts'" aren't Cornell students. I would think the lawyers and insurance companies might have something to say about them practicing with the team. They might have something to say about them traveling with the team, too, regardless of what the NCAA decides.

 

 

I was trying to illustrate the huge disparity that there currently is among Division 1 wrestling programs while everyone daydreams of having true parity or the addition of Division 1 programs. I haven't even brought up the whole idea of "NCAA Dead Periods" yet and how that hurts smaller programs.

Define "dead periods"...

[Stove_Pipe 15]

^^I'd be suprised if the four B12 teams all go to the same qualifier. Would make sense for WVU to return to the EWL. Wonder if MAC would be interested in Iowa State as an affiliate? Okla and Okla State might look to the west, qualifying thru the west region?

[Rakkasan91 75]

Define "dead periods"

 

13.02.5.5 Dead Period. A dead period is a period of time when it is not permissible to make in-person recruiting contacts or evaluations on or off the institution’s campus or to permit official or unofficial visits by prospective student-athletes to the institution’s campus. It remains permissible, however, for an institutional staff member to write or telephone a prospective student-athlete during a dead period. (Revised: 1/11/94, 12/6/13)

 

Since wrestling doesn't have an official recruiting calendar like some other sports (baseball, basketball, football, lacrosse, softball, cross country/track & field and volleyball), I think their dead period is:

 

13.17.11 Recruiting Periods—Other Sports. There are no specified recruiting periods in sports for

which no recruiting calendars have been established, except for the following dead and quiet periods.

(Revised:10/27/05, 12/5/05, 7/30/10)

 

13.17.11.1 Dead Periods.

 

13.17.11.1.1 National Letter of Intent Signing Date.

Monday through Thursday of the week that includes the fall or spring signing of the National Letter of Intent in the applicable sport. (Revised: 1/10/91, 8/2/91, 8/14/96, 7/30/10)

[SetonHallPirate 993]

Define "dead periods"

 

13.02.5.5 Dead Period. A dead period is a period of time when it is not permissible to make in-person recruiting contacts or evaluations on or off the institution’s campus or to permit official or unofficial visits by prospective student-athletes to the institution’s campus. It remains permissible, however, for an institutional staff member to write or telephone a prospective student-athlete during a dead period. (Revised: 1/11/94, 12/6/13)

 

Since wrestling doesn't have an official recruiting calendar like some other sports (baseball, basketball, football, lacrosse, softball, cross country/track & field and volleyball), I think their dead period is:

 

13.17.11 Recruiting Periods—Other Sports. There are no specified recruiting periods in sports for

which no recruiting calendars have been established, except for the following dead and quiet periods.

(Revised:10/27/05, 12/5/05, 7/30/10)

 

13.17.11.1 Dead Periods.

 

13.17.11.1.1 National Letter of Intent Signing Date.

Monday through Thursday of the week that includes the fall or spring signing of the National Letter of Intent in the applicable sport. (Revised: 1/10/91, 8/2/91, 8/14/96, 7/30/10)

I don't think that was what he was talking about, but if it is, eight days of dead period a year isn't exactly going to make a huge amount of difference.