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JohnnyThompsonnum1

Why I don't put much stock in high school results

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I wasn't that bright to begin with, but I'm considerably dumber after having read this whole thread.

 

Here's the real summary.

 

JT1 starts this thread with a classic straw man: pretending that there are people out there who absolutely 100% guarantee NCAA titles for incoming true freshmen based on high school results, and then criticizing these people for being overzealous. The conclusion would be reasonable if the premise weren't so silly, as you can search the forum high and low, and not find a single post that fits JT1's description.

 

Then everyone else jumps on JT1, some saying that his argument that high school success doesn't guarantee college success is so comically obvious that it doesn't merit a post (which is 100% correct), and others saying that he's actually claiming that less successful high schoolers are more apt to succeed than more successful guys (which isn't what he's saying).

 

Then the usual petty attacks and counterattacks from and to JT1.

 

What a waste of time. What everyone knew and agreed upon before this thread, and after it, is that high school success strongly predicts collegiate success but doesn't guarantee it. Can we close this idiotic thread and move on now?

 

Pretending, LMAO. Pretending? Obviously you skip 1/3 of the post per year.

 

Furthermore, I don't apologize for starting this thread or for pointing something out. It may not be happening at the current moment, as in right here, right now but if you take the last 12 years of this message board it's the same old story again and again and again. It's getting old. I can think back to nearly 12 years ago when Teyon Ware was a freshman. Post after Post after post about how he was going to be so great and so good. I didn't mind those post so much and I still dont'. Yet he suffers a loss to Dana Holland from Arizona State and there is a thread about it umpteen pages long with critical post after critical post saying, "I guess he wasn't as good as I thought he was going to be" "well there goes my hopes of him doing as well as I predicted" and much harsher and critical comments than that. Why because Teyon Ware a true freshman lost to Dana Holland a senior? Is it that much of a crime, seeing that you were in high school last year, losing to a guy who has had three years of collegiate experience? Get real. It's ridiculous and it may very well be just how it is. That's fine I guess, but it's stupid and I don't apologize for pointing out how stupid it is.

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You guys are looking at it from a coaching perspective, and if I were a collegiate coach, like I am not, like most of us are not, I'd be looking at it from a coaching perspective as well. I'm talking from a fan perspective, because I'm not a collegiate coach, as most of us on here are not, I am a fan, which most of us are.

 

Bulwer-Lytton: 2014....envelope please...

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You guys are looking at it from a coaching perspective, and if I were a collegiate coach, like I am not, like most of us are not, I'd be looking at it from a coaching perspective as well. I'm talking from a fan perspective, because I'm not a collegiate coach, as most of us on here are not, I am a fan, which most of us are.

 

Bulwer-Lytton: 2014....envelope please...

+1

 

Multiple submissions are allowed, I submit:

 

JohnnyThompsonnum1 wrote: "It just seems to me that some of these results, like the ones I've collaborated below, are overlooked from years past and people keep making the "Because he was so good in high school he will be in college too" and "Because he wasn't all that great in high school, he won't be in college either" predictions.....both of which I add, are often put to rest in a hurry."

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JT1 starts this thread with a classic straw man: pretending that there are people out there who absolutely 100% guarantee NCAA titles for incoming true freshmen based on high school results, and then criticizing these people for being overzealous. The conclusion would be reasonable if the premise weren't so silly, as you can search the forum high and low, and not find a single post that fits JT1's description.

 

Andrew Alton, anyone? There were posters guaranteeing multiple national championships for Alton and that his career would eclipse Frank Molinaro's.

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I do recall seeing a picture of the two Altons and two other wrestlers posing for a picture in high school, and someone going on about all the individual NCAA titles in they would combine for (I think probably 0 so far).

 

Just the same, the story isn't nearly as sad as jt1 would have you believe.

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for those who haven't had the time, or the sanity to read all four pages

 

in summation....

 

college coaches should recruit HS 5th placers instead of champs.

No. Here is your summary.

 

Obnoxious fans should't sit around getting off at the thought of a kid coming in and being the next four time defeated champion and then act like his coach should take him out back and shoot him when he suffers a tough loss against a tough wrestler.

So Cael shouldn't take Andrew Alton out back and shoot him? Yeah, well, that's just like your opinion man. As everyone on these boards says, if you dominate in high school you better win NCAA titles or you're worthless.

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I am a college wrestling fan and my perspective and analysis is from a college wrestling fans on college wrestling fans. Where in the world any of you are coming up with coaches I have no idea. Are most of you NCAA DI coaches ? I made myself concrete clear that I am speaking on behalf of the way I have seen a substantial amount of fans react to a variety of college wrestlers. I have not said anything about what coaches should do or not do. I gave my opinion of what I have gathered from what other fans have said of what they believe a coach should do but that is it. When I speak on my observation of fans on this board I am specifically speaking about those particular fans. I am not talking about coaches. If I were talking about coaches I would say coaches. I am talking about fans. That's why I said fans.

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I quoted you in my post, so not sure why I need to spoon-feed this, but you brought up coaches Johnny. And I quote (again) "then act like his coach should take him out back and shoot him when he suffers a tough loss against a tough wrestler."

 

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of your suggestion that most on the board are so extreme, certainly not being literal, which I wrongly assumed you would understand since you were not literal with the very post I quoted. Why am I explaining this?

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What didn't I make clear huh?

 

We take guys like Jordan and hype them up like Gods for the high school success that they accomplish and if they don't immediately live up to the expectations we set for them, we then chastise them, write them off and forget about them. Sure I exagerate a bit here, but not anywhere near to the amount that I am accused of. Guys like Cael Sanderson, Ben Askren and Jake Herbert are the exceptions that exceed expectations, but not here, not on themat.com. Here they are the rule that everyone else should live up to and if they don't, we should feel justified in our disappointment in them.

 

What's funny to me is that in 2015 some incoming true or redshirt freshmen are coming in and we expect the world out of these guys, not hoping, but expecting them to beat returning All Americans and go toe to toe with NCAA finalist and champs. Then in 2019, these kids will be seniors and we'll be expecting the freshmen that are coming into to defeat them. I guess I don't quite get that. I can understand the excitement of going above and beyond, but I don't understand the expectation. Shouldn't we instead expect wrestlers to continuously progress while they're in college? Shouldn't we expect wrestles who we hope to be outstanding freshmen true or redshirt, to be even better in three years as seniors?? I'd think so.

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What didn't I make clear huh?

 

We take guys like Jordan and hype them up like Gods for the high school success that they accomplish and if they don't immediately live up to the expectations we set for them, we then chastise them, write them off and forget about them. Sure I exagerate a bit here, but not anywhere near to the amount that I am accused of. Guys like Cael Sanderson, Ben Askren and Jake Herbert are the exceptions that exceed expectations, but not here, not on themat.com. Here they are the rule that everyone else should live up to and if they don't, we should feel justified in our disappointment in them.

 

What's funny to me is that in 2015 some incoming true or redshirt freshmen are coming in and we expect the world out of these guys, not hoping, but expecting them to beat returning All Americans and go toe to toe with NCAA finalist and champs. Then in 2019, these kids will be seniors and we'll be expecting the freshmen that are coming into to defeat them. I guess I don't quite get that. I can understand the excitement of going above and beyond, but I don't understand the expectation. Shouldn't we instead expect wrestlers to continuously progress while they're in college? Shouldn't we expect wrestles who we hope to be outstanding freshmen true or redshirt, to be even better in three years as seniors?? I'd think so.

I would argue most of Jordan's hype has come from his phenomenal redshirt season. Is that acceptable to analyze, or does that still meet ur no high school results matter philosophy?

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What didn't I make clear huh?

 

We take guys like Jordan and hype them up like Gods for the high school success that they accomplish and if they don't immediately live up to the expectations we set for them, we then chastise them, write them off and forget about them. Sure I exagerate a bit here, but not anywhere near to the amount that I am accused of. Guys like Cael Sanderson, Ben Askren and Jake Herbert are the exceptions that exceed expectations, but not here, not on themat.com. Here they are the rule that everyone else should live up to and if they don't, we should feel justified in our disappointment in them.

 

What's funny to me is that in 2015 some incoming true or redshirt freshmen are coming in and we expect the world out of these guys, not hoping, but expecting them to beat returning All Americans and go toe to toe with NCAA finalist and champs. Then in 2019, these kids will be seniors and we'll be expecting the freshmen that are coming into to defeat them. I guess I don't quite get that. I can understand the excitement of going above and beyond, but I don't understand the expectation. Shouldn't we instead expect wrestlers to continuously progress while they're in college? Shouldn't we expect wrestles who we hope to be outstanding freshmen true or redshirt, to be even better in three years as seniors?? I'd think so.

I would argue most of Jordan's hype has come from his phenomenal redshirt season. Is that acceptable to analyze, or does that still meet ur no high school results matter philosophy?

 

In this particular case I agree with you. However, there have been plenty of other cases where high school results have been the only thing to go on. All of it is acceptable to analyze. I'm just saying simply that Ben Askren is an exception. An individual who exceeded expectations. An individual who went way above and way beyond. He's something that we as fans should feel as special. Not something we should come to expect.

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So fans shouldn't get excited when their team has a top recruiting class is that what you are saying? Do you realize most freshmen redshirt and thus the hype that you hate usually includes some high school matches and college matches?

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Play the percentages, HS results usually indicate success.

Casinos win at blackjack 51-53% of the time, you think they are losing money??

 

HS Success=more recruitable to better programs and better coaching=better chance to accomplish more.

 

Nothing else to really talk about here.

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So fans shouldn't get excited when their team has a top recruiting class is that what you are saying? Do you realize most freshmen redshirt and thus the hype that you hate usually includes some high school matches and college matches?

 

The hype doesn't bother me. Hype away! Hype on thou Hypetian soldier! It's the ridiculing and chastising that theses kids get long, long, long before their collegiate careers are over that I have a problem with. Give them time to develop give them time to grow, mature, improve their technique, gain confidence and strength. Just because someone doesn't have the success that is unfairly bestowed upon them, doesn't mean we need to write them off and start, "I enjoyed the ____ ____ era" threads. We give up on these kids way, way, way too soon. It's ridiculous. I think winning a national title and making All American is pretty "God Damn Glorious" as Elmo would say, regardless of what year your elgibility is when you do it.

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So fans shouldn't get excited when their team has a top recruiting class is that what you are saying? Do you realize most freshmen redshirt and thus the hype that you hate usually includes some high school matches and college matches?

 

The hype doesn't bother me. Hype away! Hype on thou Hypetian soldier! It's the ridiculing and chastising that theses kids get long, long, long before their collegiate careers are over that I have a problem with. Give them time to develop give them time to grow, mature, improve their technique, gain confidence and strength. Just because someone doesn't have the success that is unfairly bestowed upon them, doesn't mean we need to write them off and start, "I enjoyed the ____ ____ era" threads. We give up on these kids way, way, way too soon. It's ridiculous. I think winning a national title and making All American is pretty "God Damn Glorious" as Elmo would say, regardless of what year your elgibility is when you do it.

 

Can you point to some examples of this from the past two years? Please link to a few topics or posts that write off a young guy after a loss.

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So fans shouldn't get excited when their team has a top recruiting class is that what you are saying? Do you realize most freshmen redshirt and thus the hype that you hate usually includes some high school matches and college matches?

 

The hype doesn't bother me. Hype away! Hype on thou Hypetian soldier! It's the ridiculing and chastising that theses kids get long, long, long before their collegiate careers are over that I have a problem with. Give them time to develop give them time to grow, mature, improve their technique, gain confidence and strength. Just because someone doesn't have the success that is unfairly bestowed upon them, doesn't mean we need to write them off and start, "I enjoyed the ____ ____ era" threads. We give up on these kids way, way, way too soon. It's ridiculous. I think winning a national title and making All American is pretty "God Damn Glorious" as Elmo would say, regardless of what year your elgibility is when you do it.

 

Can you point to some examples of this from the past two years? Please link to a few topics or posts that write off a young guy after a loss.

 

I'll tell you what I will do though. For every time I see something similar to what I am talking about from now on, I will post "BobDole" in thread.

 

For the record I had someone private message me in agreement with me that while I am being a bit dramatic, I am correct in the overall analysis that I conclude here.

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I had someone private message me that you are a drama queen who gets worked up much to do about nothing.

 

Compared to some on the board I am quite theatrical, I can certainly admit to that. I used to care what people thought, but have since found it more liberating not to. I used to care what you thought too, but have found that life is much more enjoyable once you describe from such nonsense.

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I had someone PM me once that scribe was the coolest Cornell fan ever.

2nd coolest, at best. I met a really cool cornell fan at the NCAA's two years ago and saw him for a brief stint this year in Oklahoma City. Scribe may be cool, but let us give gold where gold is deserved and reserve him no better than the silver.

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I had someone PM me once that scribe was the coolest Cornell fan ever.

2nd coolest, at best. I met a really cool cornell fan at the NCAA's two years ago and saw him for a brief stint this year in Oklahoma City. Scribe may be cool, but let us give gold where gold is deserved and reserve him no better than the silver.

JT1 thinking his opinion matters :lol: #justjoking

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