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Lee Kemp

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We talking about the best ever, there are really two ways to compare. 1. What did they accomplish, this is statistical and leaves very little room for argument, but still some interesting discussions. 2. Could they beat each other? this is completely subjective and could be argued for ever with abases that really has no fact. Sure it may be fun but don't even pretend that it is based on fact by watching film.

 

If the second one was fact, then the undefeated Miami Dolphins aren't even in the top 30 football teams of all time because everyone could beat them today!

 

Lee Kemp is one of the best.

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Old Dirty.....I scoff at you. :lol:

 

Your point is irrelevant,,,,,when a 54 year old codger like Andre Metzger can waltz into the senior level Greco tournament at Vegas and TF two young-ins with this so called superior technique. AND, Andre is up 7 lbs from his old world level weight class. I can guarantee you that if Kemp didn't have the artificial hips, he could come out of retirement and win some senior level matches at age 56/57. Guarantee it.

 

Lee Kemp, Dave Schultz, Kenny Monday would all do fine in this weight class of Burroughs/Dake/Taylor. Following is Kemp's highlight reel. Please prove to me that any one of the aforementioned studs are any better ( I'm not saying they are worse, but they are not as accomplished).

 

You should know that Kemp preached position more than anything, and moving him out of position was next to impossible.

 

 

 

Your elephant just laid down and disintegrated.

 

 

 

 

 

Is everyone gonna ignore the elephant in the room? This is the style and technique of one of the best ever? Maybe for his era, I agree 100%. Cejudo, Pico, Kolat, Abas, all of these kids at the same age make this video seem somewhat less than GOAT status. No offense to Kemp, he is great, by A/B this video with any of USA's highschool studs and then give me your real opinion. Here come the old school codgers.

 

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The other consideration you fellas should remember is that back in that day...you pretty much had to maintain contact with your opponent,,,,almost to the extent of how you would with a blind wrestler....you could get cautioned out if you weren't careful....always had to push push push.

 

 

Point and case....I had (lost) a 13-9 match in 1980 ( regional Olympic Trials in Sioux City, Iowa.) Both my opponent ( Chuck Ludeman) and I were on our last caution...in spite of 22 match points. The matches were 9 minutes back then.

 

Just sayin

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Old Dirty.....I scoff at you. :lol:

 

Your point is irrelevant,,,,,when a 54 year old codger like Andre Metzger can waltz into the senior level Greco tournament at Vegas and TF two young-ins with this so called superior technique. AND, Andre is up 7 lbs from his old world level weight class. I can guarantee you that if Kemp didn't have the artificial hips, he could come out of retirement and win some senior level matches at age 56/57. Guarantee it.

 

Lee Kemp, Dave Schultz, Kenny Monday would all do fine in this weight class of Burroughs/Dake/Taylor. Following is Kemp's highlight reel. Please prove to me that any one of the aforementioned studs are any better ( I'm not saying they are worse, but they are not as accomplished).

 

Your elephant just laid down and disintegrated.

 

Because Metzger beat 2 nobodies at the open doesnt prove in any way that Kemp was the best ever, or could walk out of retirement and start taking names. This isnt a Disney movie. There are also 45 year olds who won state in HS that could have also beaten the two inexperienced kids that Metzger did. Guarantee it.

 

If you can watch that video of Kemp and honestly tell me that what you are watching is the greatest display of an American wrestler in the history of the sport, Im gonna go ahead and say you have pride and ego invested in that statement.

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Once again I will say, with out errors this time I hope, Lee Kemp was the best, or one of the very best at his time. Statistically you could argue that he is one of the best ever. To compare him to today's wrestlers is not possible other than statistically.

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Old Dirty.....I scoff at you. :lol:

 

Your point is irrelevant,,,,,when a 54 year old codger like Andre Metzger can waltz into the senior level Greco tournament at Vegas and TF two young-ins with this so called superior technique. AND, Andre is up 7 lbs from his old world level weight class. I can guarantee you that if Kemp didn't have the artificial hips, he could come out of retirement and win some senior level matches at age 56/57. Guarantee it.

 

Lee Kemp, Dave Schultz, Kenny Monday would all do fine in this weight class of Burroughs/Dake/Taylor. Following is Kemp's highlight reel. Please prove to me that any one of the aforementioned studs are any better ( I'm not saying they are worse, but they are not as accomplished).

 

Your elephant just laid down and disintegrated.

 

Because Metzger beat 2 nobodies at the open doesnt prove in any way that Kemp was the best ever, or could walk out of retirement and start taking names. This isnt a Disney movie. There are also 45 year olds who won state in HS that could have also beaten the two inexperienced kids that Metzger did. Guarantee it.

 

If you can watch that video of Kemp and honestly tell me that what you are watching is the greatest display of an American wrestler in the history of the sport, Im gonna go ahead and say you have pride and ego invested in that statement.

 

 

Olddirty, you only posted one video of a HS Kemp who has only a few years of wrestling experience under his belt. I'm sure we could find videos of Dake or Ruth that don't look very good too.

 

And are you asking us to compare a 1975 Lee Kemp to our very best ever?

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Old Dirty,

 

Though I was coached by Kemp, I don't believe that I am being biased. I believe there is truth to the rumor that a few years back, before his hip surgery, that Lee was doing very well in the practice room against some very good people, while on the cusp of 50 years old. I would like some confirmation of that, however.

 

Truthfully, in his day, he was that dominant. Kemp would have adapted to today's "moves". He was a scientist of wrestling...always working through moves, always learning...he loved Gable and what Dan could teach him.

 

I love what the young people are doing today, and their leg shot/ankle shot finishes are superb...but don't be telling me that didn't get passed down from John Smith, who is also a relic of the 80s. I do not see Jordan Burroughs doing a whole lot different other than a great double leg shot from his knees...Kenny Monday could do all that and a bag of chips too ( he could throw like no one's business).

 

Jordan Burroughs is a winner...no doubt about it...and would be great in any era. So is Kemp, Monday, Smith, Belaglazov, Fadzaev.....the list goes on.

 

David Taylor does stuff no one else was doing back then. Kyle Dake IS predominantly old school....and somehow, Taylor hasn't caught up yet. Why is that? Taylor is an excellent wrestler with the funk- his chain wrestling is something every kid should aspire to re-create in his own game.

 

Was watching Oliver and Metcalf.....figured Leroy Smith would have had 3 takedowns by the time they totaled 1. But they BLOCK so well! and I do appreciate their skills....blocking wasn't allowed back in the day....so that's why you can't just declare that today's champs are better. If you blocked...you were put down in par terre and risked turn points. Metcalf just may medal this year, and I believe Ed Ruth will for sure.

 

I do appreciate what today's wrestlers are doing out there.

 

What you guys are assuming is that wrestling superiority is handed down "evolution-style". I will admit there are a lot MORE guys I personally would have trouble with, not that there weren't back in my day lol, and that is because of all the great teaching that is taking place. But I would never be so ignorant as to declare that Smith, Monday, Watanabe, Habibi/Blubaugh, Tediashivili, Sergei Belaglazov, Satievs, Chardartsev, Schultz's, Brands'es, Hall, Cross or KARELIN and many, many others could not win a/several world titles in this day and age, let alone Lee Kemp.

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My iPhone 3gs was the best phone at one time, but no one would argue that it is one of the best phones ever.

 

The walkman was the best way to play music at one time, but it has been surpassed by the mp3.

 

Whenever a product can be improved through technical innovation, the product will undeniably become better with time.

 

Therefore, you can only reasonably claim that a wrestler is the best of his era. If their era is today, then you can claim them as the best ever.

 

You can certainly say that these old guys, given time to adapt to the rules and technique of today, could compete at a high level, but I really don't think anyone is debating that, correct?

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Olddirty, you only posted one video of a HS Kemp who has only a few years of wrestling experience under his belt. I'm sure we could find videos of Dake or Ruth that don't look very good too.

 

And are you asking us to compare a 1975 Lee Kemp to our very best ever?

 

I didnt post the video, someone else did. But, I dont think Ruth or Dake are the best American wrestlers of all time, and I also dont think you can find video of them looking worse than Kemp in that video.

 

I am not trying to turn this into an argument of "well, if they had todays training and knowledge, they would be just as good" argument. This guy said that Lee Kemp was the best American wrestlers of all time, any era. I disagree.

 

I was not arguing his accomplishments. However, I see a very large distinction between the best wrestling accomplishments in American history, and the best wrestler in American history.

 

Its the same thing with baseball. You will have droves of people sit down and watch videos of Babe Ruth compared to modern day players and still sit there and tell you he was the best display of baseball known to man. Would Babe be the best with all the advancements of modern players? Who cares. We dont have time machines yet.

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Lewboo was a three time NCAA finalist,

 

That's cool he was a 3x FINALIST, but there have been more than five 3x CHAMPS in college history. So that automatically disqualifies him from being among the top 5 wrestlers in USA history, college or freestyle.

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Olddirty, you only posted one video of a HS Kemp who has only a few years of wrestling experience under his belt. I'm sure we could find videos of Dake or Ruth that don't look very good too.

 

And are you asking us to compare a 1975 Lee Kemp to our very best ever?

 

I didnt post the video, someone else did. But, I dont think Ruth or Dake are the best American wrestlers of all time, and I also dont think you can find video of them looking worse than Kemp in that video.

 

I am not trying to turn this into an argument of "well, if they had todays training and knowledge, they would be just as good" argument. This guy said that Lee Kemp was the best American wrestlers of all time, any era. I disagree.

 

I was not arguing his accomplishments. However, I see a very large distinction between the best wrestling accomplishments in American history, and the best wrestler in American history.

 

 

Its the same thing with baseball. You will have droves of people sit down and watch videos of Babe Ruth compared to modern day players and still sit there and tell you he was the best display of baseball known to man. Would Babe be the best with all the advancements of modern players? Who cares. We dont have time machines yet.

 

I think baseball and wrestling both are technically and tactically superior to the version of the games the old timers played. But I will always think that the old timers were better in the fundamental areas. I also think in both sports they had a different definition of work ethic which would allow them to succeed now.

 

Don't forget that the babe is well documented as being the most powerful hitter of all time, and by a mile. Harder hitting tnhan Mantle, McGwire, or whoever you want to throw in there. Had dozens of reporters covering the games as witnesses to his power. The modern guys still can't hit the ball as far as he did. Babe Ruth was a freak but he acquired this power by playing the game over, and over, and over as a youth which the modern players don't do.

 

Same thing can be said for the wrestling. Watching the highlight, kemp isn't flashy and he isn't flying all over the place like Burroughs. But the shot technique is so solid it's almost boring looking. That kind of technique will get to the legs of anyone. Easiest looking snatch singles I've ever seen.

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Old Dirty,

 

Though I was coached by Kemp, I don't believe that I am being biased. I believe there is truth to the rumor that a few years back, before his hip surgery, that Lee was doing very well in the practice room against some very good people, while on the cusp of 50 years old. I would like some confirmation of that, however.

 

Truthfully, in his day, he was that dominant. Kemp would have adapted to today's "moves". He was a scientist of wrestling...always working through moves, always learning...he loved Gable and what Dan could teach him.

 

I love what the young people are doing today, and their leg shot/ankle shot finishes are superb...but don't be telling me that didn't get passed down from John Smith, who is also a relic of the 80s. I do not see Jordan Burroughs doing a whole lot different other than a great double leg shot from his knees...Kenny Monday could do all that and a bag of chips too ( he could throw like no one's business).

 

Jordan Burroughs is a winner...no doubt about it...and would be great in any era. So is Kemp, Monday, Smith, Belaglazov, Fadzaev.....the list goes on.

 

David Taylor does stuff no one else was doing back then. Kyle Dake IS predominantly old school....and somehow, Taylor hasn't caught up yet. Why is that? Taylor is an excellent wrestler with the funk- his chain wrestling is something every kid should aspire to re-create in his own game.

 

 

Was watching Oliver and Metcalf.....figured Leroy Smith would have had 3 takedowns by the time they totaled 1. But they BLOCK so well! and I do appreciate their skills....blocking wasn't allowed back in the day....so that's why you can't just declare that today's champs are better. If you blocked...you were put down in par terre and risked turn points. Metcalf just may medal this year, and I believe Ed Ruth will for sure.

 

I do appreciate what today's wrestlers are doing out there.

 

What you guys are assuming is that wrestling superiority is handed down "evolution-style". I will admit there are a lot MORE guys I personally would have trouble with, not that there weren't back in my day lol, and that is because of all the great teaching that is taking place. But I would never be so ignorant as to declare that Smith, Monday, Watanabe, Habibi/Blubaugh, Tediashivili, Sergei Belaglazov, Satievs, Chardartsev, Schultz's, Brands'es, Hall, Cross or KARELIN and many, many others could not win a/several world titles in this day and age, let alone Lee Kemp.

 

Couldn't agree more Badgermon.

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Don't forget that the babe is well documented as being the most powerful hitter of all time, and by a mile. Harder hitting tnhan Mantle, McGwire, or whoever you want to throw in there. Had dozens of reporters covering the games as witnesses to his power. The modern guys still can't hit the ball as far as he did. Babe Ruth was a freak but he acquired this power by playing the game over, and over, and over as a youth which the modern players don't do.

 

Are we now using sports reports as scientific fact? Most of those claims have been debunked by actual science, rather than the "facts" produced by 48 yr old cigar smoking blow hards trying to sell headlines.

 

These same guys claimed Mantle hit a 565 footer, Boggs drank 64 beers on a cross country flight, and Wilt banged out 20,000 in his career.

 

Sports writers exaggerate and old timers reminisce about how tough everyone used to be. Lee Kemp was a great wrestler but far from immune when it comes to these things. Do you also beleive that the Russians went door to door through the entire Soviet Union to find a guy to beat Gable as well?

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There is no doubt the youth wrestlers are better skilled than of yesterday. Better coaching and training opportunities. Kids start earlier and get more matches in.

 

But watch a Lewbo -Rickey Delagatta match and tell me it was not exciting wrestling ? Don't think too many of today's wrestlers could keep up these guys. These guys let it all hang out and were not afraid of giving up a point.

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Don't forget that the babe is well documented as being the most powerful hitter of all time, and by a mile. Harder hitting tnhan Mantle, McGwire, or whoever you want to throw in there. Had dozens of reporters covering the games as witnesses to his power. The modern guys still can't hit the ball as far as he did. Babe Ruth was a freak but he acquired this power by playing the game over, and over, and over as a youth which the modern players don't do.

 

Are we now using sports reports as scientific fact? Most of those claims have been debunked by actual science, rather than the "facts" produced by 48 yr old cigar smoking blow hards trying to sell headlines.

 

These same guys claimed Mantle hit a 565 footer, Boggs drank 64 beers on a cross country flight, and Wilt banged out 20,000 in his career.

 

Sports writers exaggerate and old timers reminisce about how tough everyone used to be. Lee Kemp was a great wrestler but far from immune when it comes to these things. Do you also beleive that the Russians went door to door through the entire Soviet Union to find a guy to beat Gable as well?

 

I agree that sportswriters of old did have a tendency toward hyperbole and the exact distances baseballs fly are of course not accurate to the foot. So nobody will know exactly how far these balls were hit but unless there was a massive conspiracy between the sportswriters, players, coaches, and spectators who were there to witness these shots, you have to concede that some of them did indeed happen. So you can say with some confidence that Mantle did hit the upper facade at the old stadium, barely missing hitting it out of the stadium and that Babe Ruth hit several bombs including 1) out of Navin Field (Tiger Stadium) 2) out of Old Comiskey 3) out of the Polo Grounds 4) into the 45th row of bleachers in right-center field at Fenway (holy $hit).

 

So even though the new generation of players is stronger, more advanced, etc than these guys, why can't anybody reach these distances? I think it is because the old timers developed their ability by playing more (especially in their youth) and thus developing practical strength. I think it is a similar thing with wrestlers. Concentration and repetition on the basics until it is second nature. And yes I think they practiced and trained more back then, especially in the formative h.s. years.

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Is everyone gonna ignore the elephant in the room? This is the style and technique of one of the best ever? Maybe for his era, I agree 100%. Cejudo, Pico, Kolat, Abas, all of these kids at the same age make this video seem somewhat less than GOAT status. No offense to Kemp, he is great, by A/B this video with any of USA's highschool studs and then give me your real opinion. Here come the old school codgers.

 

 

od you'e an insightful poster and student of the sport. but your inexperience is showing here. you need to watch more wrestling, from many different eras with an open mind and not an agenda. the reason wrestlers score points, in it's simplest form, is because of how well the hold the other guy and maintain position. none of that has changed no matter how far you look back.

 

you span over 20 years comparing kolat and pico. someone 10 years younger than you would put kolat and kemp in the same sentence. and so on.

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Don't forget that the babe is well documented as being the most powerful hitter of all time, and by a mile. Harder hitting tnhan Mantle, McGwire, or whoever you want to throw in there. Had dozens of reporters covering the games as witnesses to his power. The modern guys still can't hit the ball as far as he did. Babe Ruth was a freak but he acquired this power by playing the game over, and over, and over as a youth which the modern players don't do.

 

Are we now using sports reports as scientific fact? Most of those claims have been debunked by actual science, rather than the "facts" produced by 48 yr old cigar smoking blow hards trying to sell headlines.

 

These same guys claimed Mantle hit a 565 footer, Boggs drank 64 beers on a cross country flight, and Wilt banged out 20,000 in his career.

 

Sports writers exaggerate and old timers reminisce about how tough everyone used to be. Lee Kemp was a great wrestler but far from immune when it comes to these things. Do you also beleive that the Russians went door to door through the entire Soviet Union to find a guy to beat Gable as well?

 

I agree that sportswriters of old did have a tendency toward hyperbole and the exact distances baseballs fly are of course not accurate to the foot. So nobody will know exactly how far these balls were hit but unless there was a massive conspiracy between the sportswriters, players, coaches, and spectators who were there to witness these shots, you have to concede that some of them did indeed happen. So you can say with some confidence that Mantle did hit the upper facade at the old stadium, barely missing hitting it out of the stadium and that Babe Ruth hit several bombs including 1) out of Navin Field (Tiger Stadium) 2) out of Old Comiskey 3) out of the Polo Grounds 4) into the 45th row of bleachers in right-center field at Fenway (holy $hit).

 

So even though the new generation of players is stronger, more advanced, etc than these guys, why can't anybody reach these distances? I think it is because the old timers developed their ability by playing more (especially in their youth) and thus developing practical strength. I think it is a similar thing with wrestlers. Concentration and repetition on the basics until it is second nature. And yes I think they practiced and trained more back then, especially in the formative h.s. years.

 

I think you don't know what you are talking about.

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With all of this talk on Randy Lewis, this really helps to illustrate just how important it is to have a good senior season, when it comes time to discuss the best of the best.

 

Had Lewis been 7-2-1-1 or pretty much, had Lewis's dislocated elbow happened any other time than his senior season, it would dramatically effect the way that we perceive him in relation to other greats.

 

Same goes for Troy Letters, Mike Pucillo, or any other wrestler with outstanding credentials in their career, that had a poor senior season for whatever reason, most likely injury.

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Customfitch,

 

You think that old time athletes trained more in their youth and high school years, which led to their greater practical strength. I don't think you can support those claims with any evidence.

 

I think you don't know what you are talking about, and are just an old man with unfounded opinions reminiscing about the glory days.

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Merman, you don't have any evidence yourself. This is the point, we can't take data and conclusively prove anyone's point(s) in this argument. So it comes down to opinions.

 

Not sure about old-time wrestlers training more but I do think they practiced the straight fundamentals more. Look at the Lee Kemp highlight vid. His shots are basic, simple as it gets, and nearly unstoppable. Those shots would work on any of the new guys today. Would he beat Burroughs? Who knows and I don't think so but I don't think it would be a blowout.

 

I also think at least from my experience that h.s. wrestlers from the 70s and 80s trained much more due to the huge weight cuts allowed back then. Those guys trained like college guys. The technique back then wasn't even close to being as good but the overall conditioning was better and the guys were much, much larger in each weight class.

 

I also know for a fact that youngsters 'back in the day' played endless baseball. It was done over, and over, and over. You know, back when kids actually went outside? Not sure if you know that kids actually did this, but they did. This was the norm and it was how they developed their practical baseball strength and their ability. So in my opinion the fundamental elements of the game were much better earlier and the players had better practical baseball strength. This is why it is rare for pitchers now to throw 200 innings in a season, something that was once commonplace. They don't throw enough. The kiddies today do not play baseball outside of sanctioned little league practices. This is similar to why our world cup soccer teams get smoked. Our opponents grow up playing the game constantly, from the time they can walk, anywhere they can.

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Is everyone gonna ignore the elephant in the room? This is the style and technique of one of the best ever? Maybe for his era, I agree 100%. Cejudo, Pico, Kolat, Abas, all of these kids at the same age make this video seem somewhat less than GOAT status. No offense to Kemp, he is great, by A/B this video with any of USA's highschool studs and then give me your real opinion. Here come the old school codgers.

 

 

od you'e an insightful poster and student of the sport. but your inexperience is showing here. you need to watch more wrestling, from many different eras with an open mind and not an agenda. the reason wrestlers score points, in it's simplest form, is because of how well the hold the other guy and maintain position. none of that has changed no matter how far you look back.

 

you span over 20 years comparing kolat and pico. someone 10 years younger than you would put kolat and kemp in the same sentence. and so on.

 

I will guarantee you I watch more wrestling than anyone posting in this thread. Hands down. The music player analogy is perfect. The Walkman was great in its day; it takes 2 seconds to look at an ipod and tell which one is superior.

 

There is no way that with a straight face, you can watch a video of Kemp and watch a video of Kolat and put them in the same ball park as far as offensive skill. No possible way, unless you are desperately clinging to Kemp as an athlete from your era that you have centimental attachment to.

 

I am more than willing to concede that in 40 years, there will be athletes who make athletes of my era look less than stellar. I will also be ready to embrace that increased skill instead of holding on to claims of superiority in the athletes of yore based on nostalgia rather than whats real.

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Merman, you don't have any evidence yourself. This is the point, we can't take data and conclusively prove anyone's point(s) in this argument. So it comes down to opinions.

 

Not sure about old-time wrestlers training more but I do think they practiced the straight fundamentals more. Look at the Lee Kemp highlight vid. His shots are basic, simple as it gets, and nearly unstoppable. Those shots would work on any of the new guys today. Would he beat Burroughs? Who knows and I don't think so but I don't think it would be a blowout.

 

I also think at least from my experience that h.s. wrestlers from the 70s and 80s trained much more due to the huge weight cuts allowed back then. Those guys trained like college guys. The technique back then wasn't even close to being as good but the overall conditioning was better and the guys were much, much larger in each weight class.

 

I also know for a fact that youngsters 'back in the day' played endless baseball. It was done over, and over, and over. You know, back when kids actually went outside? Not sure if you know that kids actually did this, but they did. This was the norm and it was how they developed their practical baseball strength and their ability. So in my opinion the fundamental elements of the game were much better earlier and the players had better practical baseball strength. This is why it is rare for pitchers now to throw 200 innings in a season, something that was once commonplace. They don't throw enough. The kiddies today do not play baseball outside of sanctioned little league practices. This is similar to why our world cup soccer teams get smoked. Our opponents grow up playing the game constantly, from the time they can walk, anywhere they can.

 

I can agree with much more here. Sorry to jump on you, it's just that so many people try to pass off their opinions as fact, and have a confirmation bias as they look backwards for evidence.

 

Everyone looks great in their highlight video. You think Kemp could get to the legs of today's wrestlers today. I disagree, I see a lack of evidence of the motion or handfighting necessary for todays competition. Furthermore, the defense on those videos is relatively primitive. They just weren't as creative in using their hips and leverage to counter.

 

I don't know much about baseball, however, so I'm going to stay out of that. I makes sense that more baseball was played in your time, as the internet, cable tv and video games didn't exist and kids had to entertain themselves. I don't think that is true for all sports, however. I would doubt that elite youth or high school wrestlers of today have ever trained less.

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