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Lee Kemp

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This thread is about Lee Kemp, but wondering if you same nay-sayers feel the same way about John Smith? His last Olympic showing was 1992, 23 years ago.

 

Exactly. Where is the line drawn, where previous technique no longer is 'primitive' and becomes comparable to the modern day gods of wrestling?

 

We had this discussion with the Blubaugh thread a little while ago. Now, the technique in THAT footage I can honestly say looks embarrassing. This Kemp footage, not so much. And John Smith technique, is timeless.

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Is everyone gonna ignore the elephant in the room? This is the style and technique of one of the best ever? Maybe for his era, I agree 100%. Cejudo, Pico, Kolat, Abas, all of these kids at the same age make this video seem somewhat less than GOAT status. No offense to Kemp, he is great, by A/B this video with any of USA's highschool studs and then give me your real opinion. Here come the old school codgers.

 

 

od you'e an insightful poster and student of the sport. but your inexperience is showing here. you need to watch more wrestling, from many different eras with an open mind and not an agenda. the reason wrestlers score points, in it's simplest form, is because of how well the hold the other guy and maintain position. none of that has changed no matter how far you look back.

 

you span over 20 years comparing kolat and pico. someone 10 years younger than you would put kolat and kemp in the same sentence. and so on.

 

I will guarantee you I watch more wrestling than anyone posting in this thread. Hands down. The music player analogy is perfect. The Walkman was great in its day; it takes 2 seconds to look at an ipod and tell which one is superior.

 

There is no way that with a straight face, you can watch a video of Kemp and watch a video of Kolat and put them in the same ball park as far as offensive skill. No possible way, unless you are desperately clinging to Kemp as an athlete from your era that you have centimental attachment to.

 

I am more than willing to concede that in 40 years, there will be athletes who make athletes of my era look less than stellar. I will also be ready to embrace that increased skill instead of holding on to claims of superiority in the athletes of yore based on nostalgia rather than whats real.

 

od,

 

i didn't want you to take my comments as an attack. you'll understand what i'm saying when you spend a few more years in the game. you put kolat and pico in the same sentence. the time between kolat and kemp is comparable to kolat and pico. the era doesn't matter. wrestlers have been using the same tactics, philosophies, skills and techniques since the sport started. it all gets recycled one way or another.

 

what isn't impressive about kemp or an other multiple world champ from whenever, compare today's wrestlers?

better yet here's what is impressive lee kemp. btw today is the first time i ever saw lee kemp wrestle.

1. his hands move and feet move when his doesn't like his position or when he want to set his opponent up.

2. he has excellent timing for attacks.

3 he can score with a variety of holds.

4. he attacks with explosiveness and drives through.

5. he keeps his hips down and head up when he's in on a leg.

6. he finishes in a position that limits his opponent's of creating a flurry.

7. he counters only after he breaks his opponent's grip or balance first.

and so on.

 

i'm impressed with kemp but not an advocate for him. he is an illustration that wrestling hasn't changed as much over the years. i used to be on your side with the "this generation is much better than the previous generation" mentality. but after being involved for so many years i learned differently. you will too, it's ok.

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So what is the time period that you consider the wrestling technique to be comparable to modern technique? You mention Kolat so it must be in the 90's somewhere.

 

As far as offense? Late 80's. As far as defense? Mid 90's. This is why I watch much more wrestling in the early 90's/late 80's, because offense was good and defense was fairly bad. Led to much more exciting blow outs.

 

As time goes on, the amount of improvement will be vastly diminishing IMO. The difference between a guy like Kenny Monday and Jordan Burroughs is very small. The difference between Wayne Wells and Jordan Burroughs is immense. Minus something like gene doping or some kind of genetic mutations in humans, the rate of improvement is going to continue to narrow. I have no doubt in my mind that I will see an athlete in 40 years who makes John Smith look average against top tier competition.

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1992 John Smith would lose to the likes of Asgarov, Batirov, and Kudukhov (RIP).

 

Anything that can be improved through technological innovation will be improved as time progresses. Wrestling can be improved as new techniques are introduced. Therefore, modern day wrestling is better.

 

Find a counter example to that and you will have my attention. Don't try too hard though, I don't want you to miss the price is right or the antiques roadshow played at full volume.

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So what is the time period that you consider the wrestling technique to be comparable to modern technique? You mention Kolat so it must be in the 90's somewhere.

 

As far as offense? Late 80's. As far as defense? Mid 90's. This is why I watch much more wrestling in the early 90's/late 80's, because offense was good and defense was fairly bad. Led to much more exciting blow outs.

 

As time goes on, the amount of improvement will be vastly diminishing IMO. The difference between a guy like Kenny Monday and Jordan Burroughs is very small. The difference between Wayne Wells and Jordan Burroughs is immense. Minus something like gene doping or some kind of genetic mutations in humans, the rate of improvement is going to continue to narrow. I have no doubt in my mind that I will see an athlete in 40 years who makes John Smith look average against top tier competition.

 

Good post.

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1992 John Smith would lose to the likes of Asgarov, Batirov, and Kudukhov (RIP).

 

Anything that can be improved through technological innovation will be improved as time progresses. Wrestling can be improved as new techniques are introduced. Therefore, modern day wrestling is better.

 

Find a counter example to that and you will have my attention. Don't try too hard though, I don't want you to miss the price is right or the antiques roadshow played at full volume.

 

Bad post. ;)

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But seriously, what do I have to find a counter-example to? If you are learning and using new techniques, then aren't you inherently vulnerable to the effective old ones? Someone in the previous 'old vs new' thread talked about how Randy Lewis, Tom Brands, Doug Schwab etc lauded the 'primitive' bar arm of Gable. Are these guys just making this up to make their coach look good? Or is it as simple as, some things will always work?

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But seriously, what do I have to find a counter-example to? If you are learning and using new techniques, then aren't you inherently vulnerable to the effective old ones? Someone in the previous 'old vs new' thread talked about how Randy Lewis, Tom Brands, Doug Schwab etc lauded the 'primitive' bar arm of Gable. Are these guys just making this up to make their coach look good? Or is it as simple as, some things will always work?

 

"I saw further because I stood on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton

 

I don't think this is too hard of a concept.

 

Think about this in terms of natural selection and evolution. The best wrestlers will be the ones with the most effective technique, training, style etc. These wrestlers then coach the next generation of wrestlers, who take that information, add to it, and then coach the next generation, so on and so forth Thereby, the sport becomes better as time passes. I can't put a certain date on when the technique suddenly is comparable to modern technique, as this process doesn't happen by leaps and bounds, just like apes didn't suddenly become man in a certain year.

 

Just like you wouldn't argue that monkeys are the greatest species on Earth, I wouldn't claim that any wrestler from the 70's can be considered one of the greatest wrestlers.

 

I asked if you could find any inconsistencies/counter examples in this way of thinking. It seems to make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

The anecdote of Gable turning guys in the practice room is not relevant. Not only is the story likely exaggerated, but disregards the fact that its not the Gable that wrestled in the 1970's. Gable evolved with the sport. Additionally, There is a huge gap between the statements, "Gable could turn Lewis in the practice room," and "the quality of wrestling in the 1970's is on par with that of today." Stop fooling yourselves guys.

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You so called masters of the sports crack me up with your I have watched more videos than any poster on here guaranteed??? How can you guarantee this OD and what if you did what does that prove? I don't care what you say I have been watching wrestling since the 70's lucky enough to have seen the greats from then to now wrestle and I will say this all of the greats then would be greats now. In other sports that do not have weight classes it is different but wrestling has weights. The rules have changed dramatically so that could make a difference but I am not buying that the greats from the 70's on would not be able to compete with the greats of today.

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At the risk of jumping into a black hole here, everything being bandied about here is opinion - not fact. People base their opinions on different criteria and thus, one should never reasonably expect a consensus to emerge from the debate until standards for opinions are set - which seems impossible within this context.

 

If this helps, consider the following description of the debate. As I understand OD's position, if a time machine were able to somehow transport the Kemp of 1980 to 2014, Kemp would not be able to compete favorably with a guy like Burroughs. While possibly true, others are arguing that had Kemp had similar training, etc., that was comparable with Burroughs, then Kemp would compete favorably. I think the friction comes when some say that Kemp, under no circumstance, would be able to compete favorably with a guy like Burroughs; some of the old dogs on this thread (myself included) would take issue with that position. I am not completely sure anyone is holding that argument out there for consideration (shredding).

 

Kemp's record is what it is, as will be Burroughs'. In the future, there will be some as of yet unknown stud who will similarly "set the wrestling world on fire." Give each their due and the respect they have earned; as a fan, be a bit mature about it.

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You so called masters of the sports crack me up with your I have watched more videos than any poster on here guaranteed??? How can you guarantee this OD and what if you did what does that prove? I don't care what you say I have been watching wrestling since the 70's lucky enough to have seen the greats from then to now wrestle and I will say this all of the greats then would be greats now. In other sports that do not have weight classes it is different but wrestling has weights. The rules have changed dramatically so that could make a difference but I am not buying that the greats from the 70's on would not be able to compete with the greats of today.

 

I grew up in an era where access to wrestling videos online coincided perfectly with my youth, where I had no responsibilities and a ton of free time. After that, I had a solid 10 year block where wrestling was my only job. That job entailed watching tape every day. I also had the entire library of USA wrestling at my fingertips for 4 of those years. I still watch about 30 minutes of wrestling a day, as I am still training full time (BJJ).

 

I would be rather surprised if anyone posting on this thread had that kind of video access for that long of time where they had no responsibilities besides watching tape, going to practice, and eating/sleeping. If they did, I would bet I know them.

 

What does that prove? Nothing. gutfirst was stated I need to watch more video footage of wrestling, as his opinion is that I am a young pup who is still learning what real wrestling is all about. I disagreed. I realize absolutely nothing in this thread is fact.

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Well, for what it's worth, my experience tells me the never ending cycling and re-cycling of techniques has been a part of it, but new techniques intrigue me as well. The "Steiner", the roll through tilt, the slide by, the scrambling, the Jantzen/Sanderson crab ride series. None of the scrambling techniques that have developed from the basic principal of find a stalemate position and wrestle from there, would have been received well in the mid-80's. An artist and master chess player like Jesse Delgado, would have found a way to win a ton of matches, and in fact he may or may not have been even more dominant in another time and current style, but I've seen Jesse Delgado before. He was a Fujita or a Gonzo, or Cuvo, but he was the same guy, except for the style and technique and body type. He was strong, fast, a quick thinker, supreme at the technique of the day, and he had the same heart (as if that's even possible!) as Jesse. He would not lose, and that guy that is inside of the champions that I know, still would not lose whether he went forward or backwards in time. Why is this so easy for us old guys to see? The guys in the centuries before any of us were able to dominate the hero before them the same as today, by getting in superior positions and exploiting bio-mechanical advantages and strategies from there. A freshman Lee Kemp didn't go to those, Ben Askren positions by the time he was winning World Titles. At the high school level in the 1970's a stand up reach over the top man's leg and turn inside like a 1955 Standing Switch, you would get killed unless your name is Kyle Dake in the new millennium and then you just grab the Unicorn and throw him down... from bottom. Kyle Dake has something else similar to Gable. He just reaches a point where his will to win just suffocates his opponent, and that is more than you can see on video.. No one in the future or past is going to believe guys like Ben Askren could shoot and put his face on the floor and reach 4 Finals. He was a baaaaaad man, but he sure doesn't look like much on video. Of course none of you guys would wrestle like this if you were transported back to the 80's, but you might find the cardio requirements were slightly different too. In my opinion, wrestling has gone through the type of changes we should celebrate. Weight loss/abuse has been greatly reduced. The strategy gene pool has morphed. Interest is increasing, and guess what? Folkstyle may just be the best background for MMA, which aint goin away. Heck freestyle is making a come back. The Champions today use different strategies and techniques...of course, but that's all that has changed. Do you really think the masses can't learn whatever techniques and strategies are in place? Do you really believe that a Mark Schultz couldn't learn all he'd need to know in about two work out sessions? Get over yourselves. You guys are good, but you're evolution of the sport is not, I repeat not, because your magically better than those before you. If you learn nothing else in your lifetime, you should learn to take off your rose colored glasses.

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Again, no one is arguing if you had a time machine and grabbed a guy and let him train his whole life in the modern era that he wouldnt be good. It was that Lee Kemp was the best technical display of American wrestling of all time. Not that he had the best accolades; that his personal technique and skill were the apex of our sport.

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Again, no one is arguing if you had a time machine and grabbed a guy and let him train his whole life in the modern era that he wouldnt be good. It was that Lee Kemp was the best technical display of American wrestling of all time. Not that he had the best accolades; that his personal technique and skill were the apex of our sport.

I know you saw, and I believe contributed to a previous thread (a best of all time group discussion?) where most, if not all the old timers explained how Kemp seemed determined to not use all the weapons/techniques/stratagies that on a rare occasion we would see a glimpse of. That was his one draw back at the time. He seemed satisfied most of the time to win close matches. Because one doesn't choose to display his full arsenal doesn't mean he was not well armed. And all he did is win.

 

I've known many technically superior wrestlers who still couldn't beat the toughest guys who had only a single, hand control from bottom, and a tight waist to bar on top. I don't think Dave or Mark Schultz would need much time to adapt. For Mark, almost none - his opponents would need to adapt to him (a force of nature). I don't care if you don't think his technique wasn't slick, it wasn't. And most of those he beat would tell you it didn't mater.

 

PS: how do you train your whole life in a style that changes so radically in just a few years? No one has trained in the current iteration of FS/GR more than two years.

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Lee Kemp has the steepest learning curve than anyone. That would show how quickly he could adapt to the style of the wrestling. Mark Schultz has one of the best teachers in his brother on his side. Mark, Dave, and Lee could adapt to any era of the wrestling. It is all matter of learning quickly and do better in next match. Not many could do it. It isn't easy.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Old school and current practices - give the old guys todays training and such and they would still be champions. It is the heart, not just the technique.

 

Mike the Bike Hailwood vs King Kenny Roberts on motorcycles. Given similar training you would see Mike challenging Kenny(originator of dragging the knee for balance in turns).

 

You use the technique needed at the time.

 

John Smith - would be great in any era as would Alexander Karelin, Satiev and many others. They would face the competition and rise to the occasion. They would be using the techniques of the time adapted to their physical attributes.

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Kemp's friend Christopher Lundy Campbell, with his last NCAA appearance in 1977, decided that his old technique didn't suck as badly as one thought,,,,and so not only made the 1992 Olympic Team in freestyle, but bronze-medaled one month short of his 38th BIRTHDAY.

 

15 years after his college graduation and 11 years after his world championship,,,,somehow, some-way.....his out-dated technique enabled him to win the day. 8-)

 

 

He reached the top of the world in 1981, when he won the World gold medal at 82 kg/180.5 lbs. in Skopje, Yugoslavia and was named the Most Technical Wrestler at the tournament.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

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Kemp's friend Christopher Lundy Campbell, with his last NCAA appearance in 1977, decided that his old technique didn't suck as badly as one thought,,,,and so not only made the 1992 Olympic Team in freestyle, but bronze-medaled one month short of his 38th BIRTHDAY.

 

15 years after his college graduation and 11 years after his world championship,,,,somehow, some-way.....his out-dated technique enabled him to win the day. 8-)

 

 

He reached the top of the world in 1981, when he won the World gold medal at 82 kg/180.5 lbs. in Skopje, Yugoslavia and was named the Most Technical Wrestler at the tournament.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

 

Dont act like Campbell climbed off the couch and started killing everyone. The guy kept training, evolved his technique, evolved his training methods, and found a way to win at the upper weights where he could use his physical tools.

 

From when Campbell started to when he finished was 15 years. From when Kemp finished to today is over 30 years. Considering the jumps we made as far as technique and training during the late 80's through today, 30 years ago was a long, long time.

 

I can use the same example the other way when 2x Olympic Champ/6x world champ Fadzaev tried to use his technique and got his ass kicked in his last go round.

 

Picking out random and miraculous one offs as a method to prove the norm isnt the best argument.

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od,

 

i believe that you or anyone else would not be able to distinguish the era of wrestling within 10 years if a match could be watched without anything dating it other then the wrestling. the things that give away the era are the clarity of the video, singlets, ref's clothes, rules, etc. and the fact the wrestlers are known.

 

technical aspects such as stance, motion, level change, direction change, balance, reaction time, grips, tie ups, attacks, finishes, turns, defense, proprioception (your favorite), etc. are indiscernible by era.

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