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Burroughs over the Line?

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What was with some of the poor sportsmanship from Burroughs against DT? Flinging his legs over after they go out of bounds and more than a few pushes at the end of that first match. Never seen that from him before, wasn't pleasantly surprised. I thought these two were friendly and trained together? Should be some mutual respect there.

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This interview clarifies some of it: http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/25 ... 41WJvldUrU

 

For those too lazy to watch, the Cliffs Notes for the clip are: we're good friends off the mat, but we're intense on the mat. Not exactly the most original response, but whatever.

 

I agree it was bush league. He goes from shoving DT off the mat out of bounds after the whistle, to pushing him around unnecessarily and smacking his arm off of a tie after the whistle... to signing autographs for middle schoolers who watched his every move on the mat.

 

I personally found it funny and have no problem with it, but it's ironic that "clean cut" JB gets the benefit of the doubt while Ramos and Metcalf are "thugs" because they stare people down and wrestle hard until the whistle is blown (as opposed to wrestling hard AFTER the whistle is blown, like JB did...), respectively.

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This interview clarifies some of it: http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/25 ... 41WJvldUrU

 

For those too lazy to watch, the Cliffs Notes for the clip are: we're good friends off the mat, but we're intense on the mat. Not exactly the most original response, but whatever.

 

I agree it was bush league. He goes from shoving DT off the mat out of bounds after the whistle, to pushing him around unnecessarily and smacking his arm off of a tie after the whistle... to signing autographs for middle schoolers who watched his every move on the mat.

 

I personally found it funny and have no problem with it, but it's ironic that "clean cut" JB gets the benefit of the doubt while Ramos and Metcalf are "thugs" because they stare people down and wrestle hard until the whistle is blown (as opposed to wrestling hard AFTER the whistle is blown, like JB did...), respectively.

 

 

Probably has to do with their history. One year Metcalf ran down the wrestler who had just dominated him in a national final and shoved him off the mat, mid flip, risking serious injury to the opponent in the process. There are numerous examples, I wont list them all, but over the years fans just grew tired of it and the culture at Iowa that seemed to encourage this way of thinking and acting. If Burroughs continues with his antics, I think these same fans will dislike him as well.

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Both sides of that match were pushing the line in my eyes. Burroughs did set the tone early with some straight-up big brother action blocking with his forearm/elbow while conceding passivity - just because he could. Solid strategy to "turn it into a brawl", because Taylor has more advantages as a slickster than a brawler.

It certainly played in Burroughs' favor, but Taylor was just as likely to let the hands fly.

I like the JB who is humble and wins on positioning and timing with lots of guts, but I don't think he crossed the line as much as he drew one.

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I thought he was trying to make a statement, but it came off as bush league move. Looked like a jerk like holding Taylors head down. Come on man no need for that. JB looks better taking high road.

 

Liked his interview at end came across with class.

 

mixed emotions! , JB is good enough to let the wrestling take care of it!

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I got the feeling that Burroughs had had enough of Taylor's, I'm going to cut the mat off by a third by standing on the wrong side of the circle antics and wanted to send a message that he was still the big brother in the relationship.

 

On another note, why did Taylor try to wrestle Burroughs like Andrew Howe? Is that really his style? It seemed to me by taking that approach in all 3 matches that they wrestled that he actually wore himself out. He was definitely fatigued more that Burroughs in all 3 matches. I get that he can't win the battle from the outside, no one in the world can, but I think this idea that you're going to out hand fight Burroughs after he's dealt with the world's best including Howe is a mistake.

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"Work the ties" seems to be the go to thing vs JB. It doesn't really work, but nothing really works. I want to see JB against a really elite thrower like Geduev but quick-single recently convinced me that JB will beat him pretty easily too.

 

Regarding the pushing and shoving, close matches get heated. It happens. No big deal. I think some college guys get flack because they feel the need to do it all the fricking time, even if they are winning 10-0. Gets tiresome.

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Not sure Jordan used wrong strategy. Taylor was obviously hurting from Howe match. Burroughs was working on the apparent weakness. How was this strategy a bad choice if the result in this match was better than or the same as the US Open match ?

People are looking for any excuse to be critical. This was a great match and JB showed again why he is a multiple time world champ. Sure the match got a little chippy in the heat of competition but both guys reeled it in. They are not passionless drones.

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People are criticizing Taylor's match strategy not JBs. I've said for a long time JB should get better in the ties and it looks like he has.

 

Fwiw I think Taylor wrestled well also. JB is just better.

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On another note, why did Taylor try to wrestle Burroughs like Andrew Howe? Is that really his style? It seemed to me by taking that approach in all 3 matches that they wrestled that he actually wore himself out. He was definitely fatigued more that Burroughs in all 3 matches. I get that he can't win the battle from the outside, no one in the world can, but I think this idea that you're going to out hand fight Burroughs after he's dealt with the world's best including Howe is a mistake.

 

Couldn't agree more. It was frustrating to see him go the defensive, hang-on-the-head route when he's clearly not at his best doing that. DT's production when locked up around the head, trying to wear guys down, plummets. He's just not strong enough to be able to win that battle against JB. He may be on the same team as Varner, but he is not Varner and will never be.

 

It was also evident that JB had clearly put in a ton of work on tie-ups. He was brutal with the head slaps and controlled the center of the mat when he wasn't in defensive mode protecting a lead. It was basically the opposite of the match at the US Open, where DT controlled the center of the mat most of the time.

 

Out of curiosity, I tallied up how the scoring occurred, and not surprisingly, when DT was forced to be offensive (passivity warning, needing to catch up on points, etc.) he scored more than half the time:

 

First match:

DT's 1st shot: gets a push-out.

DT's 2nd shot: misses.

DT's 3rd shot: results in action that leads to a push-out.

DT's 4th shot: misses, JB reshoots and scores.

The match ends with DT taking half a dozen desperation shots, which puts JB on the defensive. No points are scored until DT just gives up with short time on the clock. JB takes advantage and shoves DT out of bounds for a pushout.

 

Second match:

DT's 1st half-shot (not a committed shot, more like a swipe at the ankles): misses but JB reshoots, scramble ensues, DT comes out on top for the 2.

DT's 1st real shot: drives JB out of bounds, push-out.

DT's 2nd shot: defended by JB, who then shoots himself and scores 2.

Towards the end of the match, DT goes into desperation shot mode and JB is dinged a point for passivity.

With short time, DT once again pressures and pushes out JB, who is in full track mode, for a point.

 

When DT was on the offensive, he scored (or initiated action that led to his scoring) SIX TIMES OUT OF NINE. Granted, two of those times were when JB was backpedaling to lock in the win, but nevertheless, it is better than getting his ass beat on the tie-ups by a much stronger wrestler, getting so tired that he just gives up before the match ends, and more importantly, allowing JB to get on his offense, which is 100% going to score a few times no matter what DT does.

 

The bottom line: DT is best when he is on the offensive (he can score against anyone in the world, including JB) and creating scrambles, which he wins against anyone other than Dake and Tsargush. He needs to perform at his absolute best to beat JB. He is not at his absolute best playing Andrew Howe. JB is always going to blast double DT's ass at least a couple of times. The only way DT is going to beat him, which I still believe can happen, is by winning a shootout.

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I actually think he'd be better off being defensive but not by trying to hand fight him to death. Seems to me Taylor is the much better scrambler. When guys get in our Burroughs they usually finish but that's not the case with DT. Yes Burroughs is going to get a few TDs throughout the course of the match no matter what but if Taylor waits and baits JB to shoot and can stop his initial attack he can win the scramble battles that could add up to big points. I'd let him shoot and be ready to pounce on him when he does.

 

All that said I'm a NJ guy and Burroughs will always be my man so I hope DT just keeps doing what he's doing.

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I actually think he'd be better off being defensive but not by trying to hand fight him to death. Seems to me Taylor is the much better scrambler.

 

That could be another reasonable strategy. The problem is that the evidence for it isn't there. First, DT has no answer for JB's double. He can't scramble out of a move that has his feet in the air, ass planted on the mat, and chest being driven down by JB's head. And second, JB is way better than 50/50 going TDs with DT in any single match or event or if you consider all their matches in totality. I don't think waiting patiently against JB is a winning strategy. Dake is way better at that than DT will ever be, and look what happened to him when he tried it against JB.

 

So what to do? How about doing what scored six out of nine times against JB: attack. DT has as good an offense as anyone, and because of his scrambling ability, even if he misses, he has a very good chance of converting a blocked TD attempt. Sure, JB has the reshot, but that's a reality that you just have to live with. You WILL get taken down a few times in the process of trying to win. At least give yourself the best chance to win by using your best skill: offense.

 

Anyway, I particularly agree with the point that Taylor is the better scrambler, which is why I think a shootout maximizes DT's chances of beating JB. In the US, the only guy who can outscramble him is Dake, and even in the case of Dake, who knows in what form he'll return after a year of injured reserve.

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Well at the open all of DTs points were scored from counter offense except maybe one and one of the few scores he had in the best of 3 was from counter offense. Also what happened to Dake was he took Burroughs to OT in the second match and the big score he had in that match was countering JB with a throw out of bounds if I remember correctly.

 

Besides JB's blast double his second most effective weapon is his reshot. If you try to be real offensive he will kill you with reshots. It's really pick your poison which is why JB is what he is...the best wrestler on the planet.

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Exactly. The real key is to stop those double legs, which no one can do, even a defensive master like Tsargush. No matter what strategy you use, spotitng a guy 2-3 tds a match is a recipie for failure. In his loss to Marable JB inexplicably screwed up one up one of his double- kind of tripped as he was about to finish- and Marable got the winning counter.

 

Burroughs combination of speed, arm length, power and timing let him hit doubles from positions where others cant IMO. Looks to me like guys think they are in solid defensive position- ie a position where they can stop a shot from anyone else on earth- but Burroughs is still able to exploit the position to score.

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Precisely why I think it's not optimal to anchor your strategy around stopping the doubles (defense). Better to let it fly when you have a high-powered offense yourself (your best asset), and give your own offense and scrambling ability a real shot to win the match for you.

 

I'm not saying pay no regard to defense, but maximizing your considerable strengths is almost always a better strategy than trying to minimize your weaknesses, especially when the opponent's strengths far surpass your ability to minimize your weaknesses. DT has shown the ability to score on JB multiple times in a match. I'd rather lose 12-7 trying to win than lose 5-1 trying to not lose. It's not like this is the first time they've wrestled and therefore conservatism is warranted. The defensive approach has been tried. It has failed. These two will wrestle a bunch more times before their rivalry ends. Why not let it fly just once and see what happens? What's the worst that can happen, you lose again like everyone thinks you will? You get teched like you have before? So what? When you're 0-5 or whatever, it's time to try something significantly different.

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Probably has to do with their history. One year Metcalf ran down the wrestler who had just dominated him in a national final and shoved him off the mat, mid flip, risking serious injury to the opponent in the process. There are numerous examples, I wont list them all, but over the years fans just grew tired of it and the culture at Iowa that seemed to encourage this way of thinking and acting. If Burroughs continues with his antics, I think these same fans will dislike him as well.

-----

 

Suzie weighs in... lol!

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I like the brawler style that Burroughs had against Taylor. I am ok with a lot of the little shoves and stuff that went on with both guys - it's wrestling, it's a physical sport. However when Burroughs flipped his legs over after the whistle, I just thought that was a little too far. The other stuff comes with the intensity of the sport but that was completely unnecessary and I think showed a lack of respect. If it were Metcalf or Ramos that did that everyone would be all over them. Since Burroughs is normally a classy guy he gets a little slack. I am still a big fan of his but I didn't like to see that.

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This interview clarifies some of it: http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/25 ... 41WJvldUrU

 

For those too lazy to watch, the Cliffs Notes for the clip are: we're good friends off the mat, but we're intense on the mat. Not exactly the most original response, but whatever.

 

I agree it was bush league. He goes from shoving DT off the mat out of bounds after the whistle, to pushing him around unnecessarily and smacking his arm off of a tie after the whistle... to signing autographs for middle schoolers who watched his every move on the mat.

 

I personally found it funny and have no problem with it, but it's ironic that "clean cut" JB gets the benefit of the doubt while Ramos and Metcalf are "thugs" because they stare people down and wrestle hard until the whistle is blown (as opposed to wrestling hard AFTER the whistle is blown, like JB did...), respectively.

 

 

JB didn't need to flip Taylor's ankles, but there was clearly :03 left on the clock when Burroughs shoved Taylor (in the chest) twice. Taylor pushed JB back at least twice, which was after time was out. JB actually scored a point for the push out, so you it was productive. Go back and watch the match, Taylor's hand was on JB's head for a solid :03 after the whistle. JB chopped or snapped it off his head, he didn't slap it.

 

Wrestling is a rough sport, and wrestling needs this rivalry between JB and DT.

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Burroughs will keep beating Taylor, no offense but Taylor just can't overcome top level talent (yet). Kyle dake will be a much greater threat to Burroughs assuming he comes back healthy. Taylor should get used to being third on the ladder.

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