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How many more years do Koll and Flynn...

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need to finally lead their team to an NCAA team championship? I often hear both of these guys names in the best current college coach argument. I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two. That we have to "wait and see" what Cael does in the future before we can say that for sure. Why should I wait when Cael has 4 more ncaa team titles to his name than either of them?

 

Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

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I can't speak about Flynn, but as far as Rob Koll goes - I think the Cornell administration and the Cornell alumni are pretty happy with his results thus far; he's pretty much blown away all previous records at Cornell. In fact, I think the only person NOT entirely satisfied with his production is probably Rob himself!

 

Is Cael "better" because he's won the NCAA title 4 times? Maybe; maybe not. Cael couldn't win it all at Iowa, but he's got a unique situation at Penn State. Similar things can be said for J-Rob, Brands, etc. If you want to put in a claim that all of those guys are "better" coaches than Rob Koll, that's fine with me.

 

But WE wouldn't trade for any of those guys! :twisted:

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Tim Flynn has produced 2 national champions in 16 years as a head coach.

 

Anyone know the number for Koll?

 

Travis Lee (twice)

Jordan Leen

Troy Nickerson

Steve Bosak

Cam Simaz

Dake (x4)

 

10 individual championships total.

 

Edit - I forgot David Hirsch, who won it all the year after Rob took over as HC - so maybe Rob get's 1/2 credit there, splits with Jake Spates? :) Nah, let's just call it 11 even!

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need to finally lead their team to an NCAA team championship? I often hear both of these guys names in the best current college coach argument. I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two. That we have to "wait and see" what Cael does in the future before we can say that for sure. Why should I wait when Cael has 4 more ncaa team titles to his name than either of them?

 

Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

When Flynn gets the same 9.9 scholarships as everybody else, I'll start holding him to the standard of requiring a national title.

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need to finally lead their team to an NCAA team championship? I often hear both of these guys names in the best current college coach argument. I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two. That we have to "wait and see" what Cael does in the future before we can say that for sure. Why should I wait when Cael has 4 more ncaa team titles to his name than either of them?

 

Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

When Flynn gets the same 9.9 scholarships as everybody else, I'll start holding him to the standard of requiring a national title.

 

Do you think 2 national champions in 16 years is an impressive stat?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_Bi ... _champions

 

 

Looks to be 11, I think, if Koll started as HC in 1993/1994. Not bad at all.

 

As a comparison: Since the (and including) the 1994 NCAA championships, there have been 30 for the Hawkeyes, 26 for Okie State, 15 for Penn State 13 for the Goophers, 11 for Iowa State, and 9 for THE Ohio State University.

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I can't speak about Flynn, but as far as Rob Koll goes - I think the Cornell administration and the Cornell alumni are pretty happy with his results thus far; he's pretty much blown away all previous records at Cornell. In fact, I think the only person NOT entirely satisfied with his production is probably Rob himself!

 

Is Cael "better" because he's won the NCAA title 4 times? Maybe; maybe not. Cael couldn't win it all at Iowa, but he's got a unique situation at Penn State. Similar things can be said for J-Rob, Brands, etc. If you want to put in a claim that all of those guys are "better" coaches than Rob Koll, that's fine with me.

 

But WE wouldn't trade for any of those guys! :twisted:

 

You're entirely satisfied with 0 national titles in 20 years and counting? Do you mind sharing the exact reason why you wouldn't trade Koll for any other coach?

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Do you mind sharing the exact reason why you wouldn't trade Koll for any other coach?

 

Well actually, there are many reasons, not just one; and it would also vary depending upon which of the others we were comparing to. But the biggest reason - because Cornell is going to win it all NEXT year, AND in 2016! :D

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^^Rather negative flavor to this string. Well I suppose we could say that from 1928 through 2014, none of the current 16 EIWA members has won the NCAA tournament. The onlyest EIWA team that I ever recall winning the NCAA tournament was back in 1953 when Penn State won it and back then was in the EIWA. Winning the NCAA's is not an EIWA thing, BUT if any EIWA team can win it in the near term, I'd say the Koll-fueled Big Red.

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Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

 

Nothing a double class wouldn't cure. Just ask Tommy and Cael.

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need to finally lead their team to an NCAA team championship? I often hear both of these guys names in the best current college coach argument. I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two. That we have to "wait and see" what Cael does in the future before we can say that for sure. Why should I wait when Cael has 4 more ncaa team titles to his name than either of them?

 

Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

 

can't decide if you are trolling or really can't understand it. if for some reason you can't understand why the job that Flynn has done at edinboro is on par with what cael has done at psu you should have your posting privileges removed.

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need to finally lead their team to an NCAA team championship? I often hear both of these guys names in the best current college coach argument. I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two. That we have to "wait and see" what Cael does in the future before we can say that for sure. Why should I wait when Cael has 4 more ncaa team titles to his name than either of them?

 

Rob Koll has been a head coach for 21 years; Flynn has been a head coach for 16 years. How much more time do these guys need to win it all?

 

can't decide if you are trolling or really can't understand it. if for some reason you can't understand why the job that Flynn has done at edinboro is on par with what cael has done at psu you should have your posting privileges removed.

 

 

I'm not trolling in the least. I strongly disagree that what Flynn is doing at Edinboro is on par with what Cael has done. I'd like to hear why you think that's the case.

 

0 titles and 2 individual national champions in 16 years is not on par with Cael imo. Not at all.

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No name recognition, Division II college in a cold corner of NW Pennsylvania and a dungeon-like wrestling room ... finishing 5th vs A Four-time undefeated national champion, Olympic champion with amazing facilities in the Big Ten with an awesome campus finishing first.

 

if you can't grasp the concept, you're just cheating yourself. Give Flynn even HALF of the resources Cael has and he would have done even better than he has.

 

Penn State and Edinboro are not equals to start with. Flynn, in theory, should never compete with the Big Ten, but he does .... that's coaching.

 

Good coaches can't all win championships.

 

Stop trolling.

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No name recognition, Division II college in a cold corner of NW Pennsylvania and a dungeon-like wrestling room ... finishing 5th vs A Four-time undefeated national champion, Olympic champion with amazing facilities in the Big Ten with an awesome campus finishing first.

 

if you can't grasp the concept, you're just cheating yourself. Give Flynn even HALF of the resources Cael has and he would have done even better than he has.

 

Penn State and Edinboro are not equals to start with. Flynn, in theory, should never compete with the Big Ten, but he does .... that's coaching.

 

Good coaches can't all win championships.

 

Stop trolling.

 

I'm not trolling JB.

 

 

Just to be clear, are you saying that with Flynn would do a better job than Cael with half the resources that Cael has? PSU would be better off with Flynn as the head coach? :)

 

 

Good coaches can't all win championships

 

I never said Flynn wasn't a good coach. I said that Flynn is not a great coach.

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Here is an excerpt from a previous related topic that highlights some of my questions/concerns. I don't believe I really had anyone fully engage these points.

 

 

...Finishing 5th/6th at nationals is pretty good, but it's not as HUGE as actually winning the title. Again, I fail to see why what Flynn is doing at Edinboro is superior to what Cael is doing at PSU. I never hear specific agruments. Yes, he has less, but he's also accomplishing less. Many act as if Flynn is doing just as much as the top coaches with far less, and from what I can tell, that's not true.

 

People act as if it's so easy to do what Cael is doing at PSU. Flynn is having success at Edinboro, but he also has failures that not many talk about. For example, he had two guys in Port and Schopp who were favored to make the finals this year, and they both failed to make the finals. They both lost to wrestlers that they beat earlier in the year. Shouldn't this fact make people appreciate Cael more for getting his guys back to being champions year after year. Taylor won his second title, and Ruth won his 3rd title. In Flynn's entire career, he hasn't been able to get his returning champions back to the ncaa FINALS.

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I'd like to hear thoughts on why Flynn has so few national champions, and why he hasn't been able to get either of his two national champions to repeat.

 

I'm still waiting to hear how 0 team titles and 2 individual national champions in 16 years is arguably superior to what Cael has done at Penn State in 4 years.

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Just to be clear, are you saying that with Flynn would do a better job than Cael with half the resources that Cael has? PSU would be better off with Flynn as the head coach? :)

 

 

Good coaches can't all win championships

 

I never said Flynn wasn't a good coach. I said that Flynn is not a great coach.

 

Am I saying that? Absolutely not, but it's a question that cannot be answered because it isn't a scenario that will never happen. Give Cael the same resources Flynn has at Edinboro (minus his career accomplishments as a draw) and how good could he be? Would Flynn do a better job in that environment than Cael? We never know.

 

Big time coaches at big programs who wrestled at big programs do not know what the smaller programs have to deal with regarding lack of resources, university support, academic support.

 

I mean, the Penn State position has it's own secretary. Tim Flynn answers his own phone. That's just scratching the surface.

 

You're panties are in a bunch because for some reason, you think people are saying Flynn is a superior coach. I am not. However, I'm discounting your claim that Flynn is not a great coach. Who are you to say he's not? Who are you to say Cael's a great coach?

 

The big time names never had to deal with the stuff guys like Flynn have to do at their program. The fact a Division II PSAC school has even had an NCAA Division I champion is a testament to how Flynn is as a coach. Taking a 12-seed with a bum knee and getting him a chance to win a national title is GREAT coaching. I didn't say a great "coach" ... i said "coaching."

 

I've never said Flynn is superior to Cael, but a guy like Cael wouldn't even entertain the thought at coaching a school like Edinboro. Just like Terry Brands would never coach a Northern Colorado or John Smith would never coach a Duquesne.

 

You just fail to give Flynn any credit for doing great things. Bringing up this point constantly IS trolling.

 

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Am I saying that? Absolutely not, but it's a question that cannot be answered because it isn't a scenario that will never happen. Give Cael the same resources Flynn has at Edinboro (minus his career accomplishments as a draw) and how good could he be? Would Flynn do a better job in that environment than Cael? We never know.

 

I see no reason to dismiss Cael's career accomplishments. He worked hard to earn every one of those accomplishments.

 

Big time coaches at big programs who wrestled at big programs do not know what the smaller programs have to deal with regarding lack of resources, university support, academic support
.

 

I don't see the relevance of this comment JB.

 

I mean, the Penn State position has it's own secretary. Tim Flynn answers his own phone. That's just scratching the surface.

 

Maybe if he earned more accomplishments as a head coach he'd be rewarded with a secretary. Just a thought.

 

You're panties are in a bunch because for some reason, you think people are saying Flynn is a superior coach. I am not. However, I'm discounting your claim that Flynn is not a great coach. Who are you to say he's not? Who are you to say Cael's a great coach?

 

There's no need for the panties comment JB, let's not go there.

 

Over the past few years I've heard people say that Flynn is a superior coach to Cael. I've heard that on more than a few occasions.

 

Who am I to say Flynn's not a great coach? I'm someone who sees that Flynn has produced only 2 national champions in 16 years (neither guy even made it back to the finals!) and has 0 team titles. Imo, that's not great. Not even close really. I'm for setting the bar high when it comes to calling someone great.

 

Flynn and Koll's main job is to lead their team to the national championship. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about. In 2 decades Koll has not gotten the job done. In 16 years, Flynn hasn't come close. Really think about what you're saying JB. You're saying you can fail to achieve your major goal at your job every year for decades, and ultimately retire without having achieved said goal, and still be considered great at your job. Great even though you've consistently failed. How much sense does that make?

 

 

The big time names never had to deal with the stuff guys like Flynn have to do at their program. The fact a Division II PSAC school has even had an NCAA Division I champion is a testament to how Flynn is as a coach
.

 

The fact that he has had 2 national champions in 16 years is a testament to how Flynn is as a coach. I agree with that statement, but I think we mean two different things.

 

Taking a 12-seed with a bum knee and getting him a chance to win a national title is GREAT coaching. I didn't say a great "coach" ... i said "coaching."

 

Okay then. I appreciate the distinction between great "coaching" and being a great "coach". Like many non great coaches, Flynn has had a few great coaching moments. Unfortunately, they are few and far between imo. That's why he's not a great coach.

 

I've never said Flynn is superior to Cael, but a guy like Cael wouldn't even entertain the thought at coaching a school like Edinboro. Just like Terry Brands would never coach a Northern Colorado or John Smith would never coach a Duquesne.

 

Okay.

 

You just fail to give Flynn any credit for doing great things. Bringing up this point constantly IS trolling.

 

I give Flynn all the credit that I believe he deserves. No more, no less. I have nothing against the guy, I just don't think he deserves to be called great.

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this thread is ridiculous. time exercise that ignore function.

 

From my post to JB:

 

You're saying you can fail to achieve your major goal at your job every year for decades, ultimately retire without having achieved said goal, and still be considered great at your job. Great even though you've consistently failed. How much sense does that make?

 

Your thoughts Jaroslav?

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