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superold

How many more years do Koll and Flynn...

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Flynn and Koll's main job is to lead their team to the national championship. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about. In 2 decades Koll has not gotten the job done. In 16 years, Flynn hasn't come close. Really think about what you're saying JB. You're saying you can fail to achieve your major goal at your job every year for decades, and ultimately retire without having achieved said goal, and still be considered great at your job. Great even though you've consistently failed. How much sense does that make?

That's what the ADs at Cornell and Edinboro have told you?

 

How have their employment reviews been at each university?

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... I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two.

 

And who is [are] this [these] man [men] of straw (or women?) who tell you these things?

 

I think you should go and have these discussions with the straw man! :P

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Flynn and Koll's main job is to lead their team to the national championship. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about.

 

yup after the sandusky scandal and all off the arrests of psu wrestlers it is good to see all is back to normal in happy valley

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Been covering this sport for about 20 years and I've never heard anyone even hint that Flynn is a "superior" coach than Cael. I also spend a lot of time on message boards and generally disregard comments that seem so far out there or are unprovable, so if they were posted here, I probably ignored them. Maybe like I should have on this thread.

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I can't speak about Flynn, but as far as Rob Koll goes - I think the Cornell administration and the Cornell alumni are pretty happy with his results thus far; he's pretty much blown away all previous records at Cornell. In fact, I think the only person NOT entirely satisfied with his production is probably Rob himself!

 

Is Cael "better" because he's won the NCAA title 4 times? Maybe; maybe not. Cael couldn't win it all at Iowa, but he's got a unique situation at Penn State. Similar things can be said for J-Rob, Brands, etc. If you want to put in a claim that all of those guys are "better" coaches than Rob Koll, that's fine with me.

 

But WE wouldn't trade for any of those guys! :twisted:

 

You're entirely satisfied with 0 national titles in 20 years and counting? Do you mind sharing the exact reason why you wouldn't trade Koll for any other coach?

 

Koll created his top 5 program from scratch. Does it his way, and it is tremendously entertaining to follow.

 

No one else could have done what Koll has done at Cornell. I am sure of it. If he can pull off a team championship, it will only be icing on a great cake.

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I can't speak about Flynn, but as far as Rob Koll goes - I think the Cornell administration and the Cornell alumni are pretty happy with his results thus far; he's pretty much blown away all previous records at Cornell. In fact, I think the only person NOT entirely satisfied with his production is probably Rob himself!

 

Is Cael "better" because he's won the NCAA title 4 times? Maybe; maybe not. Cael couldn't win it all at Iowa, but he's got a unique situation at Penn State. Similar things can be said for J-Rob, Brands, etc. If you want to put in a claim that all of those guys are "better" coaches than Rob Koll, that's fine with me.

 

But WE wouldn't trade for any of those guys! :twisted:

 

You're entirely satisfied with 0 national titles in 20 years and counting? Do you mind sharing the exact reason why you wouldn't trade Koll for any other coach?

 

Koll created his top 5 program from scratch. Does it his way, and it is tremendously entertaining to follow.

 

No one else could have done what Koll has done at Cornell. I am sure of it. If he can pull off a team championship, it will only be icing on a great cake.

 

lets not go over board here spates laid a good foundation and cornell has as much in common with penn state or ohio state as it does with Princeton or harvard http://www.suny.edu/student/images/cont ... ap_all.gif

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I'm not sure why I'm commenting on this but will anyway. Koll is a great coach. I was there in the beginning days. Spates resurected the program, and when he left we were a top 10 program, with Koll's help. We had a good group, but didn't have enough studs to get to the next level. After a drop off, Koll has made the program a title contender. I told him he was crazy when he told me they would challenge for a national title eventually. He then made me believe. Remember, he's doing it a top 10 academic university with no scholarships.

Is he greater than Cael, that would be tough to argue, but he is a great coach. Let's let look at a few guys. Travis Lee, 2x champ, not highly recruited. Taylor was higher ranked in high school than Dake. There are some guys out there Koll cannot recruit, he can't get them in the school. He's been knocking on the door with one year he probably should have won, but didn't when they had a bad semis ( and a little help with Long getting kicked out of ISU).

 

Say all you want about his only goal is winning the national championships, but that was unheard of for probably the first 10 years of his career. His job was not to win a national championships in the beginning. Did Cael only become a great coach when he got to PSU? He was probably the same exact coach, he just now has better resources.

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superold is having a senior moment.

 

When one looks at Flynn's accomplishments given his resources, the word "great" just has to slip in to the conversation. He's taken a small college that most people have never heard of to near the top of Division 1 wrestling. Pretty amazing. Superold discounts Flynn's achievements because he hasn't won a national championship. Could ANY coach win a national championship given the tools Flynn has to work with?

 

Cael has done an outstanding job at PSU - but his situation is in no way analogous to Flynn's. He's the superstar ex-wrestler coming in to the top program in the best wrestling state in the nation. He attracts blue chip wrestlers like flies to, uh, honey. While Flynn picks up the leftovers that aren't recruited by the top teams.

 

I'm afraid that superold does have his panties in a wad.

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I heard Edinboro has 5.5 in-state scholarships so we should be able to compare a little bit here.

 

Cael wasn't able to win at ISU so he went to PSU but what if he went to Edinboro instead?

 

When he was hired he would have brought David Taylor, Luke Macchiaroli, and Cycler Sanderson. But Sanderson was just wrapping up school.

 

Everyone was saying that the Altons were going to ISU or wherever Cael was so they probably would have went to Edinboro the following year. Dirk Cowburn was said to go where the Altons went so he too might go to Edinboro.

 

With no scholarship money left there is still a slight chance that Sam Sherlock and Nick Ruggear would have went to Edinboro but Ruggear probably would have went to PSU and Sherlock would have probably shopped around. Ed Ruth was going to PSU before Cael and was never recruited by him.

 

Edinboro would then be out of scholarships for four or five years. So how would this Edinboro team have faired? Maybe slightly better than Flynn?

 

http://d1collegewrestling.net/Recruitin ... s2009.html

http://d1collegewrestling.net/Recruitin ... s2010.html

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What a sad trollish thread by superold, the guy can't be this dumb.

The scholarship money and lack of funds and resources is a huge obstacle. The potential is exponentially lower for DII schools competing at the DI level. Many of the top DI teams could beat many or most with their backups. Look at the depth that PSU, Iowa, Cornell etc...have in their practice room. Look at the the number of world medalists and NCAA champs and AA's that the top programs have as assistant coaches in the room.

 

Why don't you try an experiment. Talk to one of the AA's from Edinboro and see what they say. Guys like Koschek, Bunch, King, Gilespie, Honeycutt Port and Schopp etc...some of these guys have had sufficient experiences to give you an informed idea of why Tim Flynn is amung the elite coaches in DI.

Superold, I am curious- what is the DI team that you support ? How many AA's has your favorite team had in the past 5 years?

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Could ANY coach win a national championship given the tools Flynn has to work with?

 

Absolutely not.

 

In fact, some of the best coaches in the country, i.e. CAEL HIMSELF, Tom Brands, etc., were not even able to produce teams competitive with Edinboro's top teams before they settled into MUCH, MUCH more favorable coaching situations. Cael is a Hall of Fame coach and a Hall of Fame wrestler, and I have a huge amount of respect for his contributions to the sport, but he didn't even have the best team in his STATE when he was at Iowa State, a fully funded major school that has much better resources than tiny Edinboro. Similarly, Tom Brands, despite a top recruiting class at VT, also a fully funded major school with much better resources than Edinboro, did not come close to building a championship team. Both guys had to take over the two best coaching situations in the country to produce at the level that superold claims is an absolute prerequisite for coaching greatness.

 

But of course, we all know that, and yet we entertain this troll ad nauseum because there is nothing better to talk about in the off-season.

 

Here's a question for you superold. Who do you think is a better coach, Cael's secretary, or Tim Flynn? Neither have won national championships while at the helm. Clearly, Tim, NCAA D1 Coach of the Year, has some small (tinier than Edinboro, really) feathers in his cap to point to, but the secretary has won four NCAA titles indirectly. Is that enough for Tim to be considered in the same breath as the seretary, or does he have to win at least one title to stand up to the coaching standard the secretary has set?

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The lesson to be learned in this thread is NOT get sucked into a "debate" with superold. It never ends well.

 

As much as I disagree with Koll's being a part of the NWCA Nat Duals non sense, he is a good wrestling coach, and Flynn is obviously a good wrestling coach. There is no debate worth having about this issue.

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It just goes to show you:

 

some guys are stars in high school, they come in first and everyone thinks they are going to do great in college. But they just don't make it.

 

Other guys come in 5th place in high school and turn around and do great in college.

 

Flynn must be picking up those guys.

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It just goes to show you:

 

some guys are stars in high school, they come in first and everyone thinks they are going to do great in college. But they just don't make it.

 

Other guys come in 5th place in high school and turn around and do great in college.

 

Flynn must be picking up those guys.

 

funny how james English was used as the poster child for how psu develops their wrestlers when cael admits he gave up on him and didn't expect anything out of him yet these are the guys Flynn takes and builds a consistent top 10 program with

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The lesson to be learned in this thread is NOT get sucked into a "debate" with superold. It never ends well.

 

As much as I disagree with Koll's being a part of the NWCA Nat Duals non sense, he is a good wrestling coach, and Flynn is obviously a good wrestling coach. There is no debate worth having about this issue.

 

Tbar, your position is very similar to mine. I've stated on numerous occasions that Flynn and Koll are good coaches. What I deny is that they are great coaches. I'm not sure how my position is different from yours.

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It just goes to show you:

 

some guys are stars in high school, they come in first and everyone thinks they are going to do great in college. But they just don't make it.

 

Other guys come in 5th place in high school and turn around and do great in college.

 

Flynn must be picking up those guys.

 

funny how james English was used as the poster child for how psu develops their wrestlers when cael admits he gave up on him and didn't expect anything out of him yet these are the guys Flynn takes and builds a consistent top 10 program with

 

I believe Cael admitted that didn't believe English was capable of reaching his goal. English's goal was to become a national champion, and he failed to accomplish that like Cael predicted. I'm not sure why Cael's counting out English is brought up as such a negative. Nearly every elite coach does it. Every time a coach places a young guy in a lineup over an older guy who he cannot defeat in a wrestle of, because he believes he has more potential, the coach is essentially "giving up" on the older wrestler. How many times has this happened over the years?

 

these are the guys Flynn takes and builds a consistent top 10 program with

 

That's nice, but he never wins. The goal is to win, not simply become a top 10 program.

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Here's a question for you superold. Who do you think is a better coach, Cael's secretary, or Tim Flynn? Neither have won national championships while at the helm. Clearly, Tim, NCAA D1 Coach of the Year, has some small (tinier than Edinboro, really) feathers in his cap to point to, but the secretary has won four NCAA titles indirectly. Is that enough for Tim to be considered in the same breath as the seretary, or does he have to win at least one title to stand up to the coaching standard the secretary has set?

 

Tim Flynn is the answer to that question. I never put Flynn below any secretary in my previous posts. :)

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Is he greater than Cael, that would be tough to argue, but he is a great coach.

 

DSims, why exactly would it be tough to argue that Koll is a greater coach than Cael?

 

Say all you want about his only goal is winning the national championships, but that was unheard of for probably the first 10 years of his career. His job was not to win a national championships in the beginning. Did Cael only become a great coach when he got to PSU? He was probably the same exact coach, he just now has better resources.

 

I would say Cael became great when he started winning national titles. Now that Koll is in his 21st season as head coach, do you agree that we should start setting his goals at winning a national championship?

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Been covering this sport for about 20 years and I've never heard anyone even hint that Flynn is a "superior" coach than Cael. I also spend a lot of time on message boards and generally disregard comments that seem so far out there or are unprovable, so if they were posted here, I probably ignored them. Maybe like I should have on this thread.

 

So you agree that it's silly to put Flynn ahead of, or equal to Cael when it comes to coaching greatness? If so, why?

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Is he greater than Cael, that would be tough to argue, but he is a great coach.

 

DSims, why exactly would it be tough to argue that Flynn is a greater coach than Cael?

Glenn, did you even read Sims' post or know who he is?

He wrestled for Cornell and was talking about Koll.

I don't think he made any mention of Flynn at all.

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... I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two.

 

And who is [are] this [these] man [men] of straw (or women?) who tell you these things?

 

I think you should go and have these discussions with the straw man! :P

 

Redblades,

 

 

So you would agree that Cael is clearly a better coach than Flynn?

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:roll: :lol:

 

BrGuy, do you stand by these statements (below) you made in the "Is Rob Koll the best coach in Division 1" thread?

 

Tim flynn is the best coach in the country and I have heard many college coaches agree I don't think koll would have been nearly as successful if he had taken a job at edinboro where he couldn't leverage some wealthy donors and had to rely on his coaching alone

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