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superold

How many more years do Koll and Flynn...

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superold is having a senior moment.

 

When one looks at Flynn's accomplishments given his resources, the word "great" just has to slip in to the conversation. He's taken a small college that most people have never heard of to near the top of Division 1 wrestling. Pretty amazing. Superold discounts Flynn's achievements because he hasn't won a national championship. Could ANY coach win a national championship given the tools Flynn has to work with?

 

Cael has done an outstanding job at PSU - but his situation is in no way analogous to Flynn's. He's the superstar ex-wrestler coming in to the top program in the best wrestling state in the nation. He attracts blue chip wrestlers like flies to, uh, honey. While Flynn picks up the leftovers that aren't recruited by the top teams.

 

I'm afraid that superold does have his panties in a wad.

 

No need for the panties comments oldcougar. We should be sticking up for each other. :)

 

When one looks at Flynn's accomplishments given his resources, the word "great" just has to slip in to the conversation

 

It shouldn't slip into the conversation unless "not" is immediately in front of it imo.

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Okay, Superold - I'll bite. (Just going to compare Koll to Cael on this go around)

 

1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

2. Koll doesn't recruit rapists, drunk drivers and drunken brawlers onto his team for the sake of winning, ala Cael Sanderson (classy, coach)

3. Koll hasn't had the luxury of having two recruiting classes, ala Cael Sanderson (Cael hasn't won a single NCAA title at Penn State with nothing but his own recruits)

4. Koll has never run out of a state after ousting his former coach because he just couldn't hack it/deal with in state competition (wahhhh)

5. Koll gets more out of lower ranked recruits than Cael with his army of blue chips (Dake, Garrett, Dean, etc.)

6. Cael is a dick to athletes, especially those he doesn't like. It served him and Taylor right when Bubba pinned him DT's freshman season (payback is a b*tch)

 

Feel free to try and refute any of these points. Cael has 4 titles, granted. After running away from Iowa, having two recruiting classes, and being a total schmuck to college kids he didn't care for. Koll > Cael not only as a coach, but as a human being.

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Okay, Superold - I'll bite. (Just going to compare Koll to Cael on this go around)

 

1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

2. Koll doesn't recruit rapists, drunk drivers and drunken brawlers onto his team for the sake of winning, ala Cael Sanderson (classy, coach)

3. Koll hasn't had the luxury of having two recruiting classes, ala Cael Sanderson (Cael hasn't won a single NCAA title at Penn State with nothing but his own recruits)

4. Koll has never run out of a state after ousting his former coach because he just couldn't hack it/deal with in state competition (wahhhh)

5. Koll gets more out of lower ranked recruits than Cael with his army of blue chips (Dake, Garrett, Dean, etc.)

6. Cael is a dick to athletes, especially those he doesn't like. It served him and Taylor right when Bubba pinned him DT's freshman season (payback is a b*tch)

 

Feel free to try and refute any of these points. Cael has 4 titles, granted. After running away from Iowa, having two recruiting classes, and being a total schmuck to college kids he didn't care for. Koll > Cael not only as a coach, but as a human being.

 

You make light of the most important fact in your entire post. Cael has 4 titles, Koll has 0 titles in 20 years. Koll has failed every single year for decades at the most important goal, Cael has not. Most of your points are either uncalled for name calling or aren't really relevant. As far as I'm aware, Cael has broken no rules. He's made tough decisions, and some of those decisions lead him to winning his 4 titles. Maybe if Koll made some of the calls/decisions that Cael did, he would have a national title to his name.

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1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

This isn't really true, or at the very least, the "Ivy league entry requirements" at Cornell are much different than those at Penn, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard. Cornell wrestling seems to be a lot like Duke basketball when it comes to admissions. Good for them, but don't make it out to be like the other Ivy schools.

 

6. Cael is a dick to athletes, especially those he doesn't like. It served him and Taylor right when Bubba pinned him DT's freshman season (payback is a b*tch)

Do you have any evidence for this beyond Bubba, a wrestler who had disciplinary issues and failed classes on purpose to become ineligible? Have you talked to any Penn State wrestlers? I have, and they say exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

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1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

This isn't really true, or at the very least, the "Ivy league entry requirements" at Cornell are much different than those at Penn, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard. Cornell wrestling seems to be a lot like Duke basketball when it comes to admissions. Good for them, but don't make it out to be like the other Ivy schools.

 

all ivies have separate admission standards when it comes to athletes. it varies from school to school and sport to sport but its not like cornell is some exception and no one else cuts their athletes any slack.

 

plus part of that can be probably be attributed to Koll's ability to lobby the administration and win support from the school. thats a skill many coaches either dont have or have never had to exercise.

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Superold we get it you think Cael is the greatest college coach. Well that's like your opinion man. Are you really that insecure that you need to hear everyone claim Cael is the greatest coach?

 

So if Tom Ryan wins a national title next year(after failing to do so in every year as a coach), does he become great? Is it that black and white? If Cael loses the national title next year (fails), does that mean he went from being a great coach and is now just a good coach? So if Cael fails to win a national title for the next 21 years, does that mean he is no longer a great coach?

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Superold we get it you think Cael is the greatest college coach. Well that's like your opinion man. Are you really that insecure that you need to hear everyone claim Cael is the greatest coach?

 

So if Tom Ryan wins a national title next year(after failing to do so in every year as a coach), does he become great? Is it that black and white? If Cael loses the national title next year (fails), does that mean he went from being a great coach and is now just a good coach? So if Cael fails to win a national title for the next 21 years, does that mean he is no longer a great coach?

 

You've asked similar questions before ocho. I gave an answer. I don't believe you ever put forth your specific criteria for great or best coach.

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:roll: :lol:

 

BrGuy, do you stand by these statements (below) you made in the "Is Rob Koll the best coach in Division 1" thread?

 

Tim flynn is the best coach in the country and I have heard many college coaches agree I don't think koll would have been nearly as successful if he had taken a job at edinboro where he couldn't leverage some wealthy donors and had to rely on his coaching alone

 

yup

http://www.gofightingscots.com/news/201 ... =wrestling

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/258 ... 48_GvcU8dU

http://www.dtenwrestling.com/2014/03/va ... ro-as.html

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:roll: :lol:

 

BrGuy, do you stand by these statements (below) you made in the "Is Rob Koll the best coach in Division 1" thread?

 

Tim flynn is the best coach in the country and I have heard many college coaches agree I don't think koll would have been nearly as successful if he had taken a job at edinboro where he couldn't leverage some wealthy donors and had to rely on his coaching alone

 

yup

http://www.gofightingscots.com/news/201 ... =wrestling

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/258 ... 48_GvcU8dU

http://www.dtenwrestling.com/2014/03/va ... ro-as.html

 

Would you consider arguing for Tim Flynn as the greatest ncaa coach of all time even if he finishes with 0 team titles?

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1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

This isn't really true, or at the very least, the "Ivy league entry requirements" at Cornell are much different than those at Penn, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard. Cornell wrestling seems to be a lot like Duke basketball when it comes to admissions. Good for them, but don't make it out to be like the other Ivy schools.

 

all ivies have separate admission standards when it comes to athletes. it varies from school to school and sport to sport but its not like cornell is some exception and no one else cuts their athletes any slack.

 

plus part of that can be probably be attributed to Koll's ability to lobby the administration and win support from the school. thats a skill many coaches either dont have or have never had to exercise.

This is surely true. My statement was not meant to denigrate what Koll has done in any way. He has made the most of his situation and then some.

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Superold we get it you think Cael is the greatest college coach. Well that's like your opinion man. Are you really that insecure that you need to hear everyone claim Cael is the greatest coach?

 

So if Tom Ryan wins a national title next year(after failing to do so in every year as a coach), does he become great? Is it that black and white? If Cael loses the national title next year (fails), does that mean he went from being a great coach and is now just a good coach? So if Cael fails to win a national title for the next 21 years, does that mean he is no longer a great coach?

 

You've asked similar questions before ocho. I gave an answer. I don't believe you ever put forth your specific criteria for great or best coach.

You already discussed this whole topic previously and felt the need to do it again, so what is one more trip down memory lane?

 

I actually did give a you my criteria, but you obviously failed to absorb it.

 

What is your specific criteria?

Championships... meh sounds boring. Do you use that same philosophy with individual wrestlers? Is every 3x champion automatically better than Taylor cuz he only has 2?

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Can someone please remove Cael's Johnson from Superolds mouth? My god, there is no coach who possibly compare to the great one. Maybe winning a team national title isn't the only goal of coaches (graduating athletes, getting graduates top jobs, getting a high team gpa, being involved on campus, etc) are all major goals of college coaches. Cael is a fantastic coach albeit with shady methods, probably why Superold likes him so much, while Flynn and Koll are fantastic coaches as well who work with universities that don't have a win at all costs mentality.

 

Now please tell me the same BS you told everyone else about how winning national titles is the only thing that matters for coaches. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

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Superold we get it you think Cael is the greatest college coach. Well that's like your opinion man. Are you really that insecure that you need to hear everyone claim Cael is the greatest coach?

 

So if Tom Ryan wins a national title next year(after failing to do so in every year as a coach), does he become great? Is it that black and white? If Cael loses the national title next year (fails), does that mean he went from being a great coach and is now just a good coach? So if Cael fails to win a national title for the next 21 years, does that mean he is no longer a great coach?

 

You've asked similar questions before ocho. I gave an answer. I don't believe you ever put forth your specific criteria for great or best coach.

You already discussed this whole topic previously and felt the need to do it again, so what is one more trip down memory lane?

 

I actually did give a you my criteria, but you obviously failed to absorb it.

 

What is your specific criteria?

Championships... meh sounds boring. Do you use that same philosophy with individual wrestlers? Is every 3x champion automatically better than Taylor cuz he only has 2?

 

Yes, I use pretty much the same criteria for individual ncaa championships as well. Yes, I put every 3 time ncaa champion over David Taylor.

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Can someone please remove Cael's Johnson from Superolds mouth?

 

Why the insults? People here are so emotional.

 

Now please tell me the same BS you told everyone else about how winning national titles is the only thing that matters for coaches. Go ahead, I'm waiting

 

I said that winning is the main goal. Other things have value, but winning titles is the most important goal.

 

My god, there is no coach who can possibly compare to the great one.

 

I never said this flwrestler14.

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... I've been told many times that we shouldn't clearly put a guy like Cael Sanderson ahead of either of these two.

 

And who is [are] this [these] man [men] of straw (or women?) who tell you these things?

 

I think you should go and have these discussions with the straw man! :P

 

Redblades,

So you would agree that Cael is clearly a better coach than Flynn?

 

If you want to say that Cael is clearly a better coach than Flynn, I won't tell you that you can't! :P

 

There are more metrics than just number of team championships won to measure the achievements of a coach. If you want to use team titles as your sole metric, that's OK with me. I just don't think we all have to agree on that.

 

As it stands, I would agree wholeheartedly that Cael is a great coach; I just also happen to think that others can qualify as "great" by different metrics. As to who is "the greatest" - well, didn't Ali already claim that title? ;)

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Yes, I put every 3 time ncaa champion over David Taylor.

You'd put Ken Anderson from Wartburg ahead of David Taylor?

 

No. Different divisions.

 

you probably think carter Jordan was a better coach than jim miller or mike denney because they haven't coached d1 champs

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If you want to say that Cael is clearly a better coach than Flynn, I won't tell you that you can't! :P

 

There are more metrics than just number of team championships won to measure the achievements of a coach. If you want to use team titles as your sole metric, that's OK with me. I just don't think we all have to agree on that.

 

As it stands, I would agree wholeheartedly that Cael is a great coach; I just also happen to think that others can qualify as "great" by different metrics. As to who is "the greatest" - well, didn't Ali already claim that title? ;)

 

So you would agree that Cael is clearly a better coach than Flynn? You missed the question. :)

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Yes, I put every 3 time ncaa champion over David Taylor.

You'd put Ken Anderson from Wartburg ahead of David Taylor?

 

No. Different divisions.

 

So? Anderson is a 3 time NCAA champion, Taylor is a 2 time NCAA champion.

 

The only reason division would matter is if 'degree of difficulty' is factored in.

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So? Anderson is a 3 time NCAA champion, Taylor is a 2 time NCAA champion.

 

The only reason division would matter is if 'degree of difficulty' is factored in.

 

Division matters because most of the elite talent is in D1. It's almost two completely different sports from D1 to D2 from what I've seen.

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Can someone please remove Cael's Johnson from Superolds mouth?

 

Why the insults? People here are so emotional.

 

I would have bet money that you would have considered that a dream, not an insult.

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So? Anderson is a 3 time NCAA champion, Taylor is a 2 time NCAA champion.

 

The only reason division would matter is if 'degree of difficulty' is factored in.

 

Division matters because most of the elite talent is in D1. It's almost two completely different sports from D1 to D2 from what I've seen.

 

Superold, I'm curious by what you mean by almost two completely different sports? Can you give examples of how they are almost completely different?

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So? Anderson is a 3 time NCAA champion, Taylor is a 2 time NCAA champion.

 

The only reason division would matter is if 'degree of difficulty' is factored in.

 

Division matters because most of the elite talent is in D1. It's almost two completely different sports from D1 to D2 from what I've seen.

 

Superold, I'm curious by what you mean by almost two completely different sports? Can you give examples of how they are almost completely different?

 

In short, the level of skill, talent, and effort I've seen are not really comparable. That's what I mean when I said my "almost two completely different sports" line. It's not a rule thing like it may seem to imply. Same rules just a very different quality. Think more along the lines of NBA to WNBA.

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