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superold

How many more years do Koll and Flynn...

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To answer your first questions, I would have a hard time arguing that Koll is a greater coach than Cael because of Cael's national titles. Maybe Koll is greater, but I guess it depends on how you define coaching greatness. If it's based purely on developing the kids you have, then there is a good case that Koll is better. (And I think that's why most consider Koll and Flynn great coaches) However, a part of coaching is recruiting so that must be included. I think it is easier to recruit to PSU than to Cornell, but how much easier, I don't know nor does anyone else know for sure.

 

To answer your second question. The GOAL for Cornell for the last few years has been to win a national championship. That wasn't the goal in the beginning, so to argue he has failed for 21 years you are wrong. Just like did I want to win a national championship while I was at Cornell? Sure. But my more realistic goal was to be an AA. While the goal will be to win a team national championship for the forseable future, I won't consider him a failure as a coach if he doesn't achieve it. He has taken the program to a level that most didn't think could happen and for that he has succeeded. When I first started going to nationals in 1999 and for a few years after that there was no Cornell section, I bought tickets through OU. A few years later, we had our first post-finals and there were only a handful of people, and they didn't outnumber the team. Now, we have one of the largest crowds every year (even in our down year this year), and in Philly I think we had 1,000 or 1,500 at the party. During his tenure, Cornell built the first (and maybe only) wrestling only facility, that is unbelievable. To sum it up Koll is a great coach because of the program he has built, the sustained success he has had especially given where the program was, and the obsticles he must overcome coaching at Cornell.

 

Is he greater than Cael, that would be tough to argue, but he is a great coach.

 

DSims, why exactly would it be tough to argue that Koll is a greater coach than Cael?

 

Say all you want about his only goal is winning the national championships, but that was unheard of for probably the first 10 years of his career. His job was not to win a national championships in the beginning. Did Cael only become a great coach when he got to PSU? He was probably the same exact coach, he just now has better resources.

 

I would say Cael became great when he started winning national titles. Now that Koll is in his 21st season as head coach, do you agree that we should start setting his goals at winning a national championship?

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I have seen superold"sposts before but Perry is new to me. From my perspective both have issues with perception.

 

Koll and Flynn both are in the conversation for top dog in the coaching department. Neither can hang their hat on a national title but each has their share of support for top dog in this race.

 

Flynn no doubt has done as much as anyone could given the rescources available to him. Edinboro does not have near the allotment of scholarships the top programs have nor do they have the facilities or the name recognition academically. Though Cael has the obvious name recognition, wrestlers do realize what Flynn has done and it doesn't hurt the #1 heavyweight in US Olympic history is the AD. For many reasons they are not the go to place for the blue chippers. That said Flynn recognizes talent and gets enough good blue collar kids from the Ohio, PA and NY region to be competitive beyond where most expect of him.

 

Koll is not as hampered by academic restrictions as many might think. They are Ivy and all but my understanding is that there is another part to the university which is much less restrictive. In an interview during the exhibition (Beat the Streets or something??) He stated you would be surprise who we can get into school. Though they do not have athletic scholarships they are well endowed to help students and I would not be surprised that the recruits get a larger percentage of their education paid for than some of the other big time programs.

 

One can hardly ignore what he has done with some lower tier recruits but he is getting significantly higher and more accomplished recruits than Flynn and yes....even Rob has struck out with his share (Peppleman and Villalongo are recent underachievers). Look at Cornell's recruiting classes and what stands out to me is the sheer numbers of kids they seem to bring in and they are well ranked as a class.

 

When I look at Cael and PSU I see the ultimate package. A young charismatic coach with a plan in an institution with solid academics, strong backing by the administration and alumni in the state with the deepest wrestling talent in the country. I believe the lure of building dynasty when it appeared administration backing was lacking at ISU was too much not to pursue. Don't think PSU was not on Koll's mind either!

 

Say what you will Perry but I would venture a guess that Cael is a much better "human" than what I've seen from you in my short look into your values. I don't even want to go into your "rapist, drunk drivers and drunk brawlers. All coaches have had to deal with immature young men who often make mistakes. They try to save what they can and sometimes they draw the line and cut their loses. It's not an exact science and all coaches have won some and lost others.

 

I will agree with the double recruiting class theory as an advantage out of the gate. They still have to abide

by the 9.9 scholarships. I questioned Brands's success and I have to have a wait and see attitude in regards to Cael. The next few years will give me a better idea of how good Cael is but I feel good going forward that he is who we think he is!

 

Bottom line is I don't see how a young recruit can go wrong wrestling for any of these 3 and there are a number of others out there as well who would do them justice. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES (and shut your mouth).

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superold you act like you already don't cherry pick what questions to respond to(notice how you have declined to answer plenty of people's questions and instead demand they answer yours), so this won't be a new adventure for you.

 

I usually answer all the questions that come my way. I don't respond to every question once I believe the person is not being serious, and when someone insults me like you have. Other than that, I don't think I cherry pick questions.

 

In conclusion, All hail forum dictator superold, he will define what is an appropriate topic to discuss, and what questions are worthy of his knowledge and determine when others must answer questions, do not defy him all hail ye!

 

You said it ocho, not me! Maybe if you decided to discuss things like an adult, you would get your questions answered. Since you didn't, you get cherry picked.

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I warned everyone on page 2, but you guys would not listen. I tried. :roll:

 

Tbar, I believe we may share the same opinion on this thread. We both believe Flynn and Koll are good coaches. I deny that they are great coaches. I deny that they are truly in the running for the title of ncaa's best coach. In past threads, you agreed with that. Did you change your mind?

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I usually answer all the questions that come my way. I don't respond to every question once I believe the person is not being serious, and when someone insults me like you have. Other than that, I don't think I cherry pick questions.

 

You said it ocho, not me! Maybe if you decided to discuss things like an adult, you would get your questions answered. Since you didn't, you get cherry picked.

 

That sounds like cherry picking to me when you choose when to and when not to respond to a question. Selective cherry picking is still cherry picking.

 

How have I insulted you?

 

I have quickly realized that you have an agenda in discussion and you don't attempt to absorb anything that gets in the way of your agenda. This is why you frequently ignore questions that posters throw at you and why you demand other posters surrender their answers to you.

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To answer your second question. The GOAL for Cornell for the last few years has been to win a national championship. That wasn't the goal in the beginning, so to argue he has failed for 21 years you are wrong.

 

Are you certain that wasn't a goal in the beginning? If it wasn't, maybe that is a big reason that Koll has never won in 21 years. I believe that winning that national championship should have been a goal from day one.

 

Just like did I want to win a national championship while I was at Cornell? Sure. But my more realistic goal was to be an AA.

 

"More realistic" implies there was a less realistic goal. Was that less realistic goal winning the ncaa title? When you made it to ncaas, were you trying to win every match?

 

 

During his tenure, Cornell built the first (and maybe only) wrestling only facility, that is unbelievable. To sum it up Koll is a great coach because of the program he has built, the sustained success he has had especially given where the program was, and the obsticles he must overcome coaching at Cornell.

 

I don't deny that Koll has done some good to very good things. I just deny that he's a great coach. I thank you for sharing all of that, but I still don't consider him to be great. He needs a national title to his name.

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That sounds like cherry picking to me when you choose when to and when not to respond to a question. Selective cherry picking is still cherry picking.

 

Okay. :D

 

How have I insulted you?

 

Take a look at your past posts.

 

I have quickly realized that you have an agenda in discussion and you don't attempt to absorb anything that gets in the way of your agenda. This is why you frequently ignore questions that posters throw at you and why you demand other posters surrender their answers to you.

 

You're wrong.

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glad you agree

 

How do I know what is an insult to you? I am not you, only you can make that determination.

 

Deflecting in defense of your agenda. Classic!

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glad you agree

 

How do I know what is an insult to you? I am not you, only you can make that determination.

 

Deflecting in defense of your agenda. Classic!

 

Ocho, can you honestly say that nothing you posted about me in this thread was intended to be an insult?

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glad you agree

 

How do I know what is an insult to you? I am not you, only you can make that determination.

 

Deflecting in defense of your agenda. Classic!

 

Ocho, can you honestly say that nothing you posted about me in this thread was intended to be an insult?

Answer my question first cherry picker

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Would be really good, IMO, if the following was the end of this thread!

 

Bottom line is I don't see how a young recruit can go wrong wrestling for any of these 3 and there are a number of others out there as well who would do them justice. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES (and shut your mouth).

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Would be really good, IMO, if the following was the end of this thread!

 

Bottom line is I don't see how a young recruit can go wrong wrestling for any of these 3 and there are a number of others out there as well who would do them justice. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES (and shut your mouth).

agreed thought that was well written as well.

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1. Koll has ivy league entry requirements to contend with, Cael does not. (granted Penn State is still a good school)

This isn't really true, or at the very least, the "Ivy league entry requirements" at Cornell are much different than those at Penn, Princeton, Brown, and Harvard. Cornell wrestling seems to be a lot like Duke basketball when it comes to admissions. Good for them, but don't make it out to be like the other Ivy schools.

All Ivy League schools adhere to the standards set forth by the league and measured by the academic index. Duke, while a fine institution, does not have this restriction.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html

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Koll and Flynn both are in the conversation for top dog in the coaching department.

 

As I've stated many times before, I disagree.

 

Neither can hang their hat on a national title...

 

This is why I disagree.

 

Flynn no doubt has done as much as anyone could given the rescources available to him.

 

How do you know? How many scholarships did Cael use to get Ruth, Taylor, and Brown? Is it safe to say that he used less than the number that Flynn has to give? Seeing that Flynn's team finished where they did on the strength of pretty much 3 wrestlers, I think Cael with these 3 guys alone would probably outperform Flynn.

 

...do realize what Flynn has done and it doesn't hurt the #1 heavyweight in US Olympic history is the AD. For many reasons they are not the go to place for the blue chippers. That said Flynn recognizes talent and gets enough good blue collar kids from the Ohio, PA and NY region to be competitive beyond where most expect of him.

 

Wouldn't the combination of these factors put Flynn in one of the very best situations in the country? Top 15 to Top 20?

 

 

Bottom line is I don't see how a young recruit can go wrong wrestling for any of these 3 and there are a number of others out there as well who would do them justice. JUST OPEN YOUR EYES (and shut your mouth).

 

My eyes are open and I see some good things from Koll and Flynn. Still, I believe their accomplishments leave them short of the great category. I think both are very good coaches and nothing more.

 

And I could see how a recruit would be very hesitant to sign on with Flynn. Flynn has never produced a multiple time national champion. None of his 3 champions have ever repeated. 3 champions in 16 years.

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"the sky is blue today"

 

"No, it's white"

 

Your quote from a previous thread:

 

With three consecutive team titles, Cael Sanderson of Penn State is the one who objectively is the best coach.

 

We are in agreement Tbar! Are you aware that several on this thread are arguing that the best coach in the ncaa is up for debate? :)

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Rob Koll is the best coach in college. Cael Sanderson is the best coach in college.

 

These are opinions.

 

Rob Koll has not coached an team championship at Cornell. Cael Sanderson has coached a team championship at PSU.

 

These are facts.

 

You can use facts to support/argue an opinion, but that doesn't change ones opinion nor prove/disprove ones opinion to be correct. For example; you use a national championship as a criteria in support of your opinion. Not everyone does.

 

 

Sidenote- Zalesky also needs to be included in your list of GREAT college coaches superold as he has the required National Championship. I think he was forgetton on your list of JRob, Brands, Smith, Cael

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Let me give an opinion of my own:

 

Stop feeding the troll

I have considered that option, but then I considered the alternative which is then I would actually have to work.

 

I will eventually lose interest and refrain from posting then superold can claim he bested me in a discussion as he likes to do with other posters. :roll:

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Rob Koll has not coached an team championship at Cornell. Cael Sanderson has coached a team championship at PSU. These are facts.

 

Are they really? Depending on who you ask, those can be considered facts. Those statements assume that there is an objective reality, do they not? Maybe you haven't spent a lot of time in the philosophical world. :)

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