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superold

Edinboro: 2015 NCAA team champions?

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Bac, I don't wish to go down that route here since I already had long discussions about this in the past. That question easily leads to more questions by others and the thread gets hijacked.

 

That's fine, just trying to understand where you're coming from. I tend to think that Edinboro doesn't have a plausible shot at a title since the points they return aren't nearly enough to win a title, and they don't have nearly enough in the cupboard to amass the remaning points needed, unlike other teams. And without the benefit of knowing you reasoning, I would tend to disagree that failure to win a title negatively impact his legacy, as the very fact that Edinboro is in this converssation (even if only the periphery), despite the institutional disadvantages of being a smaller regional school with a smaller budget and minimal nationwide name recognition, speaks highly of what he's accomplished at Edinboro (albeit with a very supportive athletic department). I'd love to seem them get into the top 5.

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Bac, I don't wish to go down that route here since I already had long discussions about this in the past. That question easily leads to more questions by others and the thread gets hijacked.

 

That's fine, just trying to understand where you're coming from. I tend to think that Edinboro doesn't have a plausible shot at a title since the points they return aren't nearly enough to win a title, and they don't have nearly enough in the cupboard to amass the remaning points needed, unlike other teams. And without the benefit of knowing you reasoning, I would tend to disagree that failure to win a title negatively impact his legacy, as the very fact that Edinboro is in this converssation (even if only the periphery), despite the institutional disadvantages of being a smaller regional school with a smaller budget and minimal nationwide name recognition, speaks highly of what he's accomplished at Edinboro (albeit with a very supportive athletic department). I'd love to seem them get into the top 5.

 

Well we are on completely opposite sides of this issue BAC. I do believe that failing to win a title negatively impacts his legacy.Looking carefully over everything he's done leads me to the conclusion that he's a notch or two below great.

 

Edinboro placed in the top 5 last year. This coming year they are in an even better position going into the season. I'd consider this year to be a big failure if they didn't at least place top 5. Wouldn't you?

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Bac, I don't wish to go down that route here since I already had long discussions about this in the past. That question easily leads to more questions by others and the thread gets hijacked.

 

That's fine, just trying to understand where you're coming from. I tend to think that Edinboro doesn't have a plausible shot at a title since the points they return aren't nearly enough to win a title, and they don't have nearly enough in the cupboard to amass the remaning points needed, unlike other teams. And without the benefit of knowing you reasoning, I would tend to disagree that failure to win a title negatively impact his legacy, as the very fact that Edinboro is in this converssation (even if only the periphery), despite the institutional disadvantages of being a smaller regional school with a smaller budget and minimal nationwide name recognition, speaks highly of what he's accomplished at Edinboro (albeit with a very supportive athletic department). I'd love to seem them get into the top 5.

 

Well we are on completely opposite sides of this issue BAC. I do believe that failing to win a title negatively impacts his legacy.Looking carefully over everything he's done leads me to the conclusion that he's a notch or two below great.

 

Edinboro placed in the top 5 last year. This coming year they are in an even better position going into the season. I'd consider this year to be a big failure if they didn't at least place top 5. Wouldn't you?

 

I usually agree with you more than I disagree, so that's why I asked, before commenting on Flynn, why you'd make winning a NCAA title a prerequisite to greatness, without regard to the school in which they're situated. I didn't see the earlier thread on the topic so I don't really know what was discussed before. But offhand, I guess I just have a hard time taking a coach who we can all agree is great, whether Cael or Smith or maybe Gable or Roderick in their prime, and throwing them in, say, Sacred Heart or Utah Valley State, and then concluding that they're no longer "great" if they're unable to win a title there. I think that some schools are so differently situated than others that you really have to take it into account when evaluating the coach's performance. Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

At any rate, I'd need to look more closely at what other schools are returning before weighing in on what Edinboro placement I'd view as a failure. But I'd hope they can equally strong or better performances from Port, Schopp and Habat, and I would hope Flynn can scare up an AA placement from one of the other guys (Avery, Matthews?) to put them within reaching distance.

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In some ways you could argue that Edinboro out of the top 5 next year would be considered a huge letdown considering their returning wrestlers.

 

Edinboro would need a magical run to capture an NCAA title. Most likely would need:

 

125- Mines: R12

133 - Schopp: 1st

141 - Port: 1st or 2nd

149 - Habat: 3rd or 4th

157 - Mathews: 8th or R12

165 - B Davis: R16

174 - ?

184 - Avery: 3rd - 6th

197 - Picket: R16

285 - ?

 

(Asking our Math experts out there, is this enough given some bonus points from the AA's?)

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Too bad Davis decided to stay at Notre Dame. Edinboro is probably the school most similar to NDC. He would really help solidify the lineup. (Though there would be no scholarship available for him, I am sure.)

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Ultimately, I believe you need to win ncaa team titles on your resume to be a considered a great coach. I don't consider guys without titles worthy of being called great. Jmo.

 

The NCAA has just astericked Penn State's four titles. Does that disqualify Cael Sanderson from your great coaches list?

 

http://bit.ly/1mOoVyV

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I have not seen it happen in wrestling but in the NFL there have been "great" coaches like Vince Lombardi that had achieved greatness leading the Packers to multiple titles......did he become a lousy coach when he went to the Washington Redskins?? If you ask any successful coach you more often than not hear in some form "great players make great coaches'!! It is usually the "surroundings that allows great coaches to reach their pinnacle.

 

If the coach does not have the "assets" to bring in top athletes, he may be god's gift to the coaching profession and he probably will not be leaving the sport with NCAA team titles!

 

So.....if one's criteria to be a great coach is NCAA team titles.......they will only find them by following the $$$$!

 

FACT

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Great points Superold.

As a matter of fact I'll take it one step further.

Since the Cael's, Uncle John's, and Tommy's are the only "great" coaches out there, by your standards, I say if they don't win it with their resources that they should be terminated.

 

They are only great if they win it at least 5 years in a row. Cael ain't there yet but if he strings together a couple more he'll be great.

 

Therefore Gable is great and rest are in the Flynn, Sanderson, etc category.

 

I hope this all makes sense.

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Super-insecure said: "I don't believe you can be a great coach without ncaa titles on your resume."

 

This is probably one of the most ignorant, oblivious, and ill-informed statements I have ever read.

 

Question: Who do you think would win in a match, you, Super-insecure or LI Marty?

 

It is a legitimate question. Please answer it.

 

If you have nothing meaningful to add, I'd appreciate it if you stopped posting here leshishmore. I think that you are a little too emotionally involved in all of this.

 

Why is this not meaningful SI? It is a valid question.

 

"I don't believe you can be a great coach without ncaa titles on your resume." IS one of the most ignorant, oblivious, and ill-informed statements I have ever read.

 

Why is this not meaningful? It is TRUE... It is also my opinion.

 

What do you mean by "emotionally involved"? Can you give us examples?

 

SI--Are you "emotionally involved" or just using sound, rational logic? Please give us clear examples.

 

Questions: What coaching advice do you have Edinboro? What should he do in your eyes to actually become GREAT?

Have you ever wrestled the coach of Edinboro? If so, what was the result? Was he a better wrestler or a coach?

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In some ways you could argue that Edinboro out of the top 5 next year would be considered a huge letdown considering their returning wrestlers.

 

Edinboro would need a magical run to capture an NCAA title. Most likely would need:

 

125- Mines: R12

133 - Schopp: 1st

141 - Port: 1st or 2nd

149 - Habat: 3rd or 4th

157 - Mathews: 8th or R12

165 - B Davis: R16

174 - ?

184 - Avery: 3rd - 6th

197 - Picket: R16

285 - ?

 

(Asking our Math experts out there, is this enough given some bonus points from the AA's?)

 

Based off of your predicted placements, the scoring(without bonus) is as follows:

 

125:Mines R12= 2pts

133:Schopp 1st= 20pts

141:Port 1st or 2nd is 16 or 20 pts So for the exercise we will say 18pts

149:Habat 3rd or 4th is 13.5 or 12.5 pts So for the exercise we will say 13 pts

157:Mathews 8th or R12 is 5.5 or 2 pts So for the exercise we will say 4(rounding 3.75 to 4)

165: Davis R16 is 1.5

174:DNQ

184: Avery 3rd-6th (13.5+12.5+10+9=45x4=11.25) 11pts

197:Picket R16 is 1.5

285:DNQ

 

So with just advancement and placement points you have Edinboro at 71.

Schopp scored 3 bonus pts last year. Port scored 7 bonus pts last year. Habat scored 4 bonus pts last year.

Looking at last years results I would say 20 bonus pts would be the absolute high end possibility for the whole team.

 

Factoring the above 91 is about the highest Edinboro can score. Looking at my early season predictions this would not crack the top 4. As solid as 91 is PSU, Minnesota, OkState all scored more than this last year. Add in Iowa who has averaged around this number the last 10 years and Ohio State who has enough firepower to stumble and STILL score 90+.

 

As much as I like Edinboro and would love to see them win it, I know they are a long shot. Highest returning points scorer is a misnomer. Teams like PSU, Minnesota, Iowa and Ohio State had guys either sitting on the bench behind AA's or redshirting who all had AA potential. Edinboro had it's best lineup out there and is only bringing in a guy who went 1-2 at last year's tournament.

 

Don't fall for the line superold is feeding you. If Edinboro finishes top5 it will still be a special accomplishment.

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Returning points is just part of the story and ignores the huge potential points coming in from redshirts and talented new starters that were sitting behind very good wrestlers. Imo, Edinboro winning a national championship would be the equivalent to that A-Class school from Indiana winning the state championship in the 50s. They just don't have the resources to compete with the top programs and it would take a similar aligning of the stars for it to happen.

 

That being said, I think superold raises an interesting question about how we judge coaches in a sports environment where only very few teams have been champions. Flynn isn't a very good test example because Edinboro doesn't have any where near the same resources as many other schools. This conversation about good vs great would have more merit with a guy like Koll that has had much better support, financial and otherwise. He has had a lot of success but hasn't brought home a title yet. Does that disqualify him from being a "great" coach? I remember when Cael came to Penn State, there were a lot of people that used the championship argument to say he wasn't that good a coach despite qualifying all of his wrestlers for nationals and placing top 4 all 3 years at ISU.

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Questions: What coaching advice do you have Edinboro? What should he do in your eyes to actually become GREAT?

 

 

Flynn needs to start winning national titles to become great in my eyes. I've said this a ton of times already. Coaching advice to Edinboro would be to seize this great opportunity they have next season and win the ncaa team title.

 

I wish them luck.

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Don't fall for the line superold is feeding you. If Edinboro finishes top5 it will still be a special accomplishment.

 

I disagree that simply finishing top 5 is a special accomplishment. They took 5th last year and are in a better position preseason than they were a year ago. I believe we should expect Edinboro to improve on their top 5 finish. You seem to be saying that falling outside of the top 5 wouldn't necessarily be a failure for the Edinboro wrestling program next year. Am I understanding you correctly?

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That being said, I think superold raises an interesting question about how we judge coaches in a sports environment where only very few teams have been champions. Flynn isn't a very good test example because Edinboro doesn't have any where near the same resources as many other schools. This conversation about good vs great would have more merit with a guy like Koll that has had much better support, financial and otherwise. He has had a lot of success but hasn't brought home a title yet. Does that disqualify him from being a "great" coach? I remember when Cael came to Penn State, there were a lot of people that used the championship argument to say he wasn't that good a coach despite qualifying all of his wrestlers for nationals and placing top 4 all 3 years at ISU.

 

I think the Edinboro head coaching job is one of the best in the country. I often hear about the programs weaknesses, but almost never about its strengths.

 

Another question I believe needs to be answered is when should we start holding the coach accountable for some of the struggles that his program faces? Is it possible, that with more effort, Flynn could have more resources than he does now? I'm not against putting lack of resources largely on the head coaches. I know that's not a popular position, but that's where I stand.

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Teams like PSU, Minnesota, Iowa and Ohio State had guys either sitting on the bench behind AA's or redshirting who all had AA potential.

 

What guys are you talking about specifically? I'm not exactly sure how this matters. Edinboro had the opportunity to produce tough 2nd string wrestlers just like PSU, Minnesota, Iowa, and Ohio State.

 

Edinboro had it's best lineup out there and is only bringing in a guy who went 1-2 at last year's tournament.

 

And like other schools, they'll have the opportunity to develop the talent that is in their room.

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I think the Edinboro head coaching job is one of the best in the country. I often hear about the programs weaknesses, but almost never about its strengths.

 

Why would you say this is one of the best jobs to have in the country? Besides the stellar job Flynn has done I don't see any reason why anyone would list it as one of the programs they would most like to coach at.

 

Would you list the strengths of the program? The only one I can think of is the AD was a wrestler but even he hasn't been able to stop funding cuts brought on by the state.

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"Flynn needs to start winning national titles to become great in my eyes."

 

I don't really want to pop your ego and break it to you... but I know the coach does not really care one iota who YOU deem to be a "great coach" or what is "great" in your eyes. I know that may be shocking to hear. :lol:

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I think the Edinboro head coaching job is one of the best in the country. I often hear about the programs weaknesses, but almost never about its strengths.

 

Why would you say this is one of the best jobs to have in the country? Besides the stellar job Flynn has done I don't see any reason why anyone would list it as one of the programs they would most like to coach at.

 

Would you list the strengths of the program? The only one I can think of is the AD was a wrestler but even he hasn't been able to stop funding cuts brought on by the state.

 

In short, their strengths are the AD and the school location.

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"Flynn needs to start winning national titles to become great in my eyes."

 

I don't really want to pop your ego and break it to you... but I know the coach does not really care one iota who YOU deem to be a "great coach" or what is "great" in your eyes. I know that may be shocking to hear. :lol:

 

Maybe you're right leshishmore. I don't see how this matters however.

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"Flynn needs to start winning national titles to become great in my eyes."

 

I don't really want to pop your ego and break it to you... but I know the coach does not really care one iota who YOU deem to be a "great coach" or what is "great" in your eyes. I know that may be shocking to hear. :lol:

 

Maybe you're right leshishmore. I don't see how this matters however.

 

ha that is funny. There are a ton of other PA schools that recruits would pick as their first option if you only want a PA school. Penn State, Lehigh, Pittsburgh all have a ton more resources and don't get the lake effect snow. Bucknell's new facility will be huge for recruiting too.

 

A wrestling AD is cool but even with him going to bat for wrestling the other schools are able to give their wrestling programs a lot more.

 

Have you ever been to Edinboro?

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"Flynn needs to start winning national titles to become great in my eyes."

 

I don't really want to pop your ego and break it to you... but I know the coach does not really care one iota who YOU deem to be a "great coach" or what is "great" in your eyes. I know that may be shocking to hear. :lol:

 

Maybe you're right leshishmore. I don't see how this matters however.

 

ha that is funny. There are a ton of other PA schools that recruits would pick as their first option if you only want a PA school. Penn State, Lehigh, Pittsburgh all have a ton more resources and don't get the lake effect snow. Bucknell's new facility will be huge for recruiting too.

 

A wrestling AD is cool but even with him going to bat for wrestling the other schools are able to give their wrestling programs a lot more.

 

Have you ever been to Edinboro?

 

 

And Penn State and Lehigh are also good jobs Dutchcountry. I didn't deny that. Surely you agree that there can be more than one good coaching job out there?

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Less than 2% of Penn State's Athletic Budget is allocated to Wrestling.

Nearly 10% of Edinboro's Athletic Budget is allocated to Wrestling.

 

Penn State spends four times as much resources on wrestling than Edinboro.

 

Having a wrestler as an Athletic Director probably helps Edinboro when compared to places like Bloomsburg, Clarion, and Lock Haven but does little to make them anywhere near being competitive with the likes of the Big Ten.

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