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Holden C.

jUNIOR DUALS Free Style

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Some of the line-ups are up on Track. IL should have the most seeding pts. based on history, but they will not be clear cut favorites on paper. I am hearing through the grape vine they are having the same trouble most States have each year putting their line-up together. This should even the playing field considerably. Utah looks good, but I do not think they will be top 4. Still waiting for CA & PA line-ups. Even though PA does not get their top guys usually they are still always competitive. The top 4 to me right now and their being no clear cut favorite are IL, MN, OK, & NJ. This year there will be more tight duals than usual once they get to the Gold pools. Should be fun.

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NJ has some very strong kids in Paetzell (2nd NJ States), Agaisse (1st NJ), Russo (2nd NJ), Tucker (1st Prep Nationals), Giraldo (1st NJ), McKenna (1st Jr. World Team), Manville (1st Cadet Worlds), Martin (1st Prep Nationals), and Johnson (2nd NJ). These are 9 kids who will be very tough to beat.

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Congrats to the Oklahoma Junior Freestyle team on winning the duals. Chandler Rogers turned the tide with an exciting come from behind pin at 182 (Lance Dixon had a banged up shoulder, and Hall at 170 would have been hard to beat). I asked Oklahoma head coach Bobby Cooke when I'd get to see my 285 wrestle. He said he's got a bum ankle, I said he knows how wrestle like a 285. Nice win by Korey, the Russian 2 on 1 to an ankle pick i taught made me really happy.

 

If Michigan had made the finals I think they would have won, the matchups wouldn't have been as good for Oklahoma.

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Hate to see it have to go to criteria between Illinois, Michigan, and Minnesota in who gets to go to the championship match. That being said each goes 1 and 1 against the other

 

Michigan scores 71 allows 55

Minnesota scores 66 allows 65

Illinois scores 58 allows 71

 

Yet somehow Michigan doesn't go to the championship match, just doesn't seem right. So many good matches both days, what a wild match between Wildmo and Bey, 55 points scored lol. Skylar Petrey, Isaiah White, and Logan Massa were all incredible and caught my eye. Props to Alec Pantaleo on beating Larry Early and Mason Manville on day 2 after coming into the weekend with absolutely 0 freestyle experience.

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Don't worry, the fix wasn't in. Here's how pool ties are always broken in USA dual events:

 

They add up positive points, as you have done above. The team with the fewest is taken out of the mix, finishing 3rd (Illinois). The head to head result between the two remaining teams then determines the final placement.

 

Actually pretty fair.

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PA didn't send a team?!? What is the story?

 

Hitting up the Disney Duals hard.

 

PA has 15 and OH has 23.

 

This event has gotten huge.

 

This just seems ridiculous to me! How could arguably the best state in the country elect to go to a meaningless tournament instead of our national duals?! I am ashamed to be from PA. We really need to get our act together and learn to focus more on freestyle and greco. We have a lot of great athletes that we are not preparing for future success.

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Just to clarify, "PA" does not send teams to Disney. A random coach or club assembles a team and they go. There isn't a PA governing body involved in sending teams to Disney.

The PAWF is the governing body that is supposed to promote and retain PA talent to wrestle FS and GR. The leadership in the PAWF has obviously been lacking for many years. The organization is more like a dictatorship that has alienated most of the club teams in PA. The PAWF is run more like a private for profit business.

I wonder why USA wrestling hasn't noticed and made inquiries. There is a lot of talent not participating to make the FS and GR tournaments better and lots of membership money that USA wrestling does not benefit from.

PA didn't send a team?!? What is the story?

 

 

PA has 15 and OH has 23.

 

This event has gotten huge.

 

This just seems ridiculous to me! How could arguably the best state in the country elect to go to a meaningless tournament instead of our national duals?! I am ashamed to be from PA. We really need to get our act together and learn to focus more on freestyle and greco. We have a lot of great athletes that we are not preparing for future success.

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How could arguably the best state in the country elect to go to a meaningless tournament instead of our national duals?!

 

The same thing can be said for USA Wrestling’s “National Duals.” And many will argue the “National Duals” are even more meaningless as they are not Folkstyle. Both are off season summer tournaments where participation is a choice. And they’re not “Our National Duals.” They are a voluntary tournament owned and operated by an independent organization solely for the profit of said organization. I know technically they are a 510©(3), but I assure you if this were not profitable it would wither and die.

 

The fact that more people are choosing to wrestle folkstyle in a fun place like Disney World should be telling you something.

 

Oh and as there are 156 teams at Disney I wouldn’t exactly call it meaningless.

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Just to clarify, "PA" does not send teams to Disney. A random coach or club assembles a team and they go. There isn't a PA governing body involved in sending teams to Disney.

The PAWF is the governing body that is supposed to promote and retain PA talent to wrestle FS and GR. The leadership in the PAWF has obviously been lacking for many years. The organization is more like a dictatorship that has alienated most of the club teams in PA. The PAWF is run more like a private for profit business.

I wonder why USA wrestling hasn't noticed and made inquiries. There is a lot of talent not participating to make the FS and GR tournaments better and lots of membership money that USA wrestling does not benefit from.

 

Just replace "PA" with "CA" and you have the same story. We just finished 10th/13th in Greco/Freestyle yet will continue with the same people and same system. We completed with 1 state champ on the roster and very few state placers.

 

The thing about USAW at the state level is if the people in charge don't want to do better, there is really nothing you can do to change that. States like PA, CA, and a few others obviously have problems with priorities and leadership while IL has been an example of what can be accomplished with the right people involved.

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The fact that more people are choosing to wrestle folkstyle in a fun place like Disney World should be telling you something.

 

Oh and as there are 156 teams at Disney I wouldn’t exactly call it meaningless.

 

Well, when you're only having state teams, you kinda top out at the number of teams you can have. The fact more teams wrestling in Orlando isn't telling about popularity, all it says is the tournament (while pretty good) accepts more teams. Junior Duals' intent is to determine a team champion from member states, not who the best team in the country is in "All Star" "Community 1" "Community 2" and "Developmental" types of brackets.

 

Let's not make this something it isn't. That's like saying more people like restaurant A because it has seating for 300 compared to restaurant B which only has 100. They're both good tournaments.

 

Disney's far from meaningless, though.

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What sounds more appealing to 16,17 & 18 year olds?

 

"Hey Joe want to go to Oklahoma and wrestle for a week in some duals?"

 

"Hey Joe want to go to Disney in Florida and wrestle for a week in some duals?"

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Can't argue the point about the location.

 

But how about ...

 

"Hey Joe State Champion, do you want to go to Oklahoma and test yourself against some of the best wrestlers in the country to prepare for Junior Nationals?"

 

... there is no second question.

 

Disney's fantastic, but we're comparing two completely different type of events. They're not very comparable. In the Minnesota vs. Oklahoma JR FS final, there were 13 nationally-ranked kids in just ONE dual. That's high quality stuff.

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I think some states make the mistake of not attending the junior national duals. They are guaranteed more matches than in Fargo. So if you are younger or haven't competed out of state the duals is less expensive than Fargo. If you are nationally ranked it is a great way to prepare for Fargo. I remember Alex Dieringer losing twice in the duals, and a month later winning at Fargo.

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Valid points. The top Pa juniors do not participate in Fargo anymore either so they are skipping the duels and Fargo. The kids may have an opinion on where they want to compete but the club coaches make or at least heavily influence the schedule. If the club coaches schedule and more importantly promote FS and GR (duels and Fargo) then the kids will generally follows their advice. Disney is a great event and I a sure the kids have some fun off the mat but at the end of the day, most serious kids want to compete against the best and a gym is a gym and a mat is a mat.

I would like to see a journalist covering Disney ask a few questions to the coaches of the club teams from the states that are not represented well at Fargo. Why Disney as opposed to participating in Fargo. There has to be a valid reason. Fargo is far more prestigious. You always read when a kid was a Fargo AA or champ. By contrast, you never read that a top ranked kid went 7-0 at Disney.

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Valid points. The top Pa juniors do not participate in Fargo anymore either so they are skipping the duels and Fargo. The kids may have an opinion on where they want to compete but the club coaches make or at least heavily influence the schedule. If the club coaches schedule and more importantly promote FS and GR (duels and Fargo) then the kids will generally follows heir advice. Disney is a great event and I a sure the kids have some fun off the mat but at the end of the day, most serious kids want to compete against the best and a gym is a gym and a mat is a mat.

I would like to see a journalist covering Disney ask a few questions to the coaches of the club teams from the states that are not represented well at Fargo. Why Disney as opposed to participating in Fargo. There has to be a valid reason. Fargo is far more prestigious. You always read when a kid was a Fargo AA or champ. By contrast, you never read that a top ranked kid went 7-0 at Disney.

 

Listen, I know it seems logical that all top kids would want to compete in Jr Duals/Fargo but when the state association is in complete control of the event -- roster, training, cost, coaching, travel, etc -- in some states the process doesn't justify making it a priority. I think a few people have tried to explain this nicely, including myself.

 

If you have a bad situation in a club, you can just move to another club that meets your needs. If you have a bad state system for Jr Duals/Fargo, there aren't a lot of options unless you considering moving out of state one of them.

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Does anyone have a comprehensive list of states that have won junior duals in freestyle? I was able to find winners going back to 2001:

 

2014: Oklahoma

2013: Illinois

2012: Illinois

2011: Illinois

2010: Illinois

2009: Ohio

2008: Illinois

2007: Illinois

2006: Illinois

2005: Iowa

2004: Ohio

2003: Ohio

2002: Oklahoma

2001: Ohio

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Valid points. The top Pa juniors do not participate in Fargo anymore either so they are skipping the duels and Fargo. The kids may have an opinion on where they want to compete but the club coaches make or at least heavily influence the schedule. If the club coaches schedule and more importantly promote FS and GR (duels and Fargo) then the kids will generally follows heir advice. Disney is a great event and I a sure the kids have some fun off the mat but at the end of the day, most serious kids want to compete against the best and a gym is a gym and a mat is a mat.

I would like to see a journalist covering Disney ask a few questions to the coaches of the club teams from the states that are not represented well at Fargo. Why Disney as opposed to participating in Fargo. There has to be a valid reason. Fargo is far more prestigious. You always read when a kid was a Fargo AA or champ. By contrast, you never read that a top ranked kid went 7-0 at Disney.

 

Listen, I know it seems logical that all top kids would want to compete in Jr Duals/Fargo but when the state association is in complete control of the event -- roster, training, cost, coaching, travel, etc -- in some states the process doesn't justify making it a priority. I think a few people have tried to explain this nicely, including myself.

 

If you have a bad situation in a club, you can just move to another club that meets your needs. If you have a bad state system for Jr Duals/Fargo, there aren't a lot of options unless you considering moving out of state one of them.

 

 

This is PA in a nutshell. Sounds like California is having the same issues. Club coaches are tired of playing the games with the sanctioning body. They arent going to suggest to their athletes to wrestle in Jr Duals when

A: They think the sanctioning body is charging way to much money.(Club coaches put togethor trips all the time, they know the cost of lodging,transportation,gear and entry fee's)

B:The sanctioning body does nothing to help themselves.(Holding tournaments on one side of the state)

C: Suggestions have been made on improving things as a whole and nothing is done.

Club coaches will take their kids and go else where.

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Valid points. The top Pa juniors do not participate in Fargo anymore either so they are skipping the duels and Fargo. The kids may have an opinion on where they want to compete but the club coaches make or at least heavily influence the schedule. If the club coaches schedule and more importantly promote FS and GR (duels and Fargo) then the kids will generally follows their advice. Disney is a great event and I a sure the kids have some fun off the mat but at the end of the day, most serious kids want to compete against the best and a gym is a gym and a mat is a mat.

I would like to see a journalist covering Disney ask a few questions to the coaches of the club teams from the states that are not represented well at Fargo. Why Disney as opposed to participating in Fargo. There has to be a valid reason. Fargo is far more prestigious. You always read when a kid was a Fargo AA or champ. By contrast, you never read that a top ranked kid went 7-0 at Disney.

 

Not true at all. I watched every match from Disney that I could last year on Flo and here in PA the wrestling community got the information out about what happened at Disney. It meant something to us what happened.

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