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Zelph

Kevin, Mark and Cael, who wins?

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this goes back to the old technique is getting better argument... if you took those guys from their peak and threw them on the mat cael wins every time. you will never convince me this schultz would even be in the match, well unless he would turn him with that devastating leg ride.

 

give them time to train in the current day and we will talk.

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this goes back to the old technique is getting better argument... if you took those guys from their peak and threw them on the mat cael wins every time. you will never convince me this schultz would even be in the match, well unless he would turn him with that devastating leg ride.

 

give them time to train in the current day and we will talk.

 

I think Jackson would be a tougher opponent than Sanderson for Schultz. Mark was a late comer to wrestling but he was a great athlete prior to that with very unusual and freakish strength from his prior sport. I don't think he would need to turn anyone to win, but he was devastatingly powerful and one of the years he won the NCAAs I think there were 6 NCAA titles present in his bracket, something that Sanderson never had to contend with in college. Also if I'm not mistaken, Jackson never won an NCAA title. Sanderson was not as physically punishing but at least on equal terms technically. People forget a lot of what Mark did was taught to him by his brother who was arguably one of if not the best technical wrestler/coach from the US in the past 30+ years. He had that going for him as well. Not taking anything away from Cael at all, but he never faced anybody in college as good as Schultz or Jackson. On the other hand Schultz beat a future Olympic champion in college. I don't know if Jackson ever beat Alger in college, I know he lost to him in the NCAA finals, but I'm not as familiar with his college career. He wrestled for LSU before they dropped I think?

 

All things equal in the present day, Schultz would win against both more than he'd lose. Sanderson would have a very difficult time trying to hand fight and he isn't much faster on his feet than Schultz. I think his set ups for his ankle pick would be well scouted. Schultz also wrestled very physically and wasn't an overly aggressive guy but aggressive enough to stay in Cael's face the whole 6-7 minutes. I'd say he grinds out a win 4-2 or 4-3.

 

Schultz against Jackson would be a lot of the same, except Jackson was not as fast on his feet as Cael. At least from what I've seen. Schultz would be able to score some points but Jackson wouldn't be too far out of it. Not a blowout but he would get into a flurry and come out on top. 6-2. His deceptive quickness would be figured out by Jackson but not before he already scored a few times.

 

Jackson and Sanderson would be more fun to watch honestly. I think Sanderson would be able to hold him off and win a close one, but he would get at least 2 takedowns. Jackson would have to play catch up and run out of time. I'd say 5-3.

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I think there were 6 NCAA titles present in his (Schultz) bracket, something that Sanderson never had to contend with in college. Also if I'm not mistaken, Jackson never won an NCAA title. Sanderson was not as physically punishing but at least on equal terms technically. People forget a lot of what Mark did was taught to him by his brother who was arguably one of if not the best technical wrestler/coach from the US in the past 30+ years. He had that going for him as well. Not taking anything away from Cael at all, but he never faced anybody in college as good as Schultz or Jackson. On the other hand Schultz beat a future Olympic champion in college. I don't know if Jackson ever beat Alger in college, I know he lost to him in the NCAA finals, but I'm not as familiar with his college career. He wrestled for LSU before they dropped I think?

 

All things equal in the present day, Schultz would win against both more than he'd lose. Sanderson would have a very difficult time trying to hand fight and he isn't much faster on his feet than Schultz. I think his set ups for his ankle pick would be well scouted. Schultz also wrestled very physically and wasn't an overly aggressive guy but aggressive enough to stay in Cael's face the whole 6-7 minutes. I'd say he grinds out a win 4-2 or 4-3.

 

Schultz against Jackson would be a lot of the same, except Jackson was not as fast on his feet as Cael. At least from what I've seen. Schultz would be able to score some points but Jackson wouldn't be too far out of it. Not a blowout but he would get into a flurry and come out on top. 6-2. His deceptive quickness would be figured out by Jackson but not before he already scored a few times.

 

Jackson and Sanderson would be more fun to watch honestly. I think Sanderson would be able to hold him off and win a close one, but he would get at least 2 takedowns. Jackson would have to play catch up and run out of time. I'd say 5-3.

 

 

This is a fun fantasy match, but Cael never lost in college when it counted and he can't help it who they make him wrestle. Cael's international career is short compared to Mark, but Cael did win 3 national titles and 1 Olympic Gold by the time he was 2 years out of college so it isn't like he didn't do anything there either.

 

Schultz has the most medals internationally, still, I think. Could be wrong as Smith may have taken that from him.

 

All three of them were great and fun to watch.

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I just don't see how you can go against Sanderson in folk, against either. Schultz had tremendous strength & athletic ability, but there is no way Cael stays in close where he might get thrown or dragged. He would use movement to get to his ankles, and Cael was an incredible scrambler if Schultz did initiate. I didn't see KJ enough in college to know his style, but I am also not sure that either could hang with Sanderson's gastank as well.

 

Freestyle is probably a completely different conversation.

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I just don't see how you can go against Sanderson in folk, against either. Schultz had tremendous strength & athletic ability, but there is no way Cael stays in close where he might get thrown or dragged. He would use movement to get to his ankles, and Cael was an incredible scrambler if Schultz did initiate. I didn't see KJ enough in college to know his style, but I am also not sure that either could hang with Sanderson's gastank as well.

 

This sounds very similar to the arguments that many used for picking Taylor over Dake. :)

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Was gonna say Schultz but OD has a good point about cardio, Sanderson has the edge there and that might be enough. With old forced par terre rules ( more breaks, more time on top) I'll take Mark.

 

Haven't seen enough KJ video to speculate where he'd fit in.

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Another impossible to prove proposition. Not KJ in folk over either. Cael, over full college career. But the last two years had Schultz move up a wt to prevent the first four time champ happening (and that name would have been in the GOAT conversations had Mark stayed down) and would be a very tough choice. In FS Mark's explosiveness, balance, and pure toughness has me favoring him over the others supposed technique advantage. Had Cael's career been a bit longer, who knows. None of the choices would be wrong except KJ in folk.

 

PS: Mark didn't have gas tank problems.

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this goes back to the old technique is getting better argument... if you took those guys from their peak and threw them on the mat cael wins every time. you will never convince me this schultz would even be in the match, well unless he would turn him with that devastating leg ride.

 

give them time to train in the current day and we will talk.

 

I don't think he would need to turn anyone to win,

 

i made a facetious statement. have you watched the banach match in the past 5 years? it was an awful match. schultz looked like a jh kid throwing the leg in twice. wrestling has changed a lot in 30 years and it will continue to get better. these guys were great in their time and training today they would be great. but to think they show up to the mat today with the tools they had in the 80's and compete is laughable. the match against scherr from '85 is also tough to watch knowing both guys won world titles that year. one thing that caught my eye in that match was the us open was held at Lock Haven?

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"...but to think they show up to the mat today with the tools they had in the 80's and compete is laughable."

 

Two arms? Check. Two legs? Check. Torso? Check. Head/brain applying strategy applicable to the current rule set of the worlds oldest sport? Check.

 

Huh, I see no difference in tools. Only an evolving/changing rule set which requires adapting to (hence the importance of the head in what Socraties called "physical chess").

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Picking against Cael in folkstyle is just silly. Of course it's possible that he would lose to these incredible wrestlers (especially 3x champ Schultz) but not making him a favorite is simply biased. As for freestyle, it's too much of a hypothetical to answer with confidence. We know that Schultz had more freestyle success than Cael did, at least he won more big matches and probably reached a higher level relative to his era. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine Mark Schultz successfully defending Cael's incredible ankle pick, even with a year's training prior to the match (again, weird hypothetical). Schultz has many advantages over Cael, but I still think Cael's movement, tremendous technique (even as a novice freestyler prone to mistakes) and ace-in-the-hole ankle pick would be too much for Schultz. But that's partly due to the development of wrestling technique thus the hypothetical conundrum again. Another rub is that Schultz into his freestyle career would perhaps dictate the match more than we've ever seen Cael do. That's exactly why the hypothetical is just too f'ing hypothetical, Cael focused on freestyle for only two years.

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Cael, taking SEVEN years off from competition and still placing 5th in worlds shows, yet again, how great he was.

 

In Freestyle for the US, Mark was Great, KJ was excellent, Cael was good. The fact Cael chose to quit does not allow us to see what he could have been. A career on the mat too short to be in the same room as Kevin Jackson and Mark Schultz and way short of John Smith. Also short of Jordan Burroughs today.

 

Cael was very good but a short career on the mat hurts his international credentials. The fact he was the best of a lower grade US team at the time does not put him in elite company.

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Picking against Cael in folkstyle is just silly. Of course it's possible that he would lose to these incredible wrestlers (especially 3x champ Schultz) but not making him a favorite is simply biased. As for freestyle, it's too much of a hypothetical to answer with confidence. We know that Schultz had more freestyle success than Cael did, at least he won more big matches and probably reached a higher level relative to his era. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine Mark Schultz successfully defending Cael's incredible ankle pick, even with a year's training prior to the match (again, weird hypothetical). Schultz has many advantages over Cael, but I still think Cael's movement, tremendous technique (even as a novice freestyler prone to mistakes) and ace-in-the-hole ankle pick would be too much for Schultz. But that's partly due to the development of wrestling technique thus the hypothetical conundrum again. Another rub is that Schultz into his freestyle career would perhaps dictate the match more than we've ever seen Cael do. That's exactly why the hypothetical is just too f'ing hypothetical, Cael focused on freestyle for only two years.

 

MS doesn't look vulnerable to an ankle pick.

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i think mark schultz beats them both in folk by his sr year. sanderson never faced anyone close to schultz's athletism or success. so judging by how he performed against his contemporaries doesn't give us much to work with.

 

i think kj beats them both in free. kj was as good as any we had at "cat and mousing" ang picking his shots when at his best when he won 3 titles. i don't think either schultz or sanderson would have got past kj's defense without giving him an offense.

 

in any case, either style makes some great match ups.

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Schultz never faced anyone like Sanderson either.

 

As good as Banach was, he was not Cael Sanderson.

No one except Larry Owings has faced an undefeated through college (and HS in Gable's case) opponent. Larry managed a 4 pointer near the end for the win.

 

Not saying he is Cael's equal, but without Schultz, Banach would have been the first four timer and would be included in all the "greatest" discussions.

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