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TBar1977

Why Cael Sanderson Is a Great Recruiter (link)

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Some numbers for you since 2011, most cumulative team points at NCAAs:

 

1) Penn St 483.5

2) Minnesota 385.5

3) Oklahoma St 352.5

4) Iowa 345.5

5) Cornell 314

 

FIFY Penn St 289 , DT/Ruth 194.5

 

Just to prove how dumb your argument is...

 

Penn St: 483.5 - (Taylor's 101 + Ruth's 96.5) = 286

Minnesota: 385.5 - (Nelson's 75.5 + Ness 3years of 53.5) - 2011Thorn's 18.5 = 238.5

Okie St: 352.5 - 46.5(Perry/Dieringer) - 44 (Oliver/Perry) - 38.5(Oliver/Byers) - 45(Oliver/Foster) = 178.5

Iowa: 345.5 - 33(Ramos/St. John) - 40(Ramos/St. John) - 45.5(Ramos/McDonough) - 37.5(McDonough) = 189.5

Cornell: 314 - 34.5(Garrett/Dean) - 36.5(Dake/Bosak) - 50.5(Dake/Simaz) - 42.5(Dake/Bosak) = 150

 

Any questions?

 

I used the DT/Ruth anomaly to show what an outlier the last four years have been. Any of the top teams would have won multiple titles if they had that once in a lifetime dynamic duo in their lineups.

 

I am curious as to why you decided to choose the top two team scorers each year for every team except Penn State's? Surely Quentin Wright scored more team points than Ruth in Philadelphia?

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I used the DT/Ruth anomaly to show what an outlier the last four years have been. Any of the top teams would have won multiple titles if they had that once in a lifetime dynamic duo in their lineups.

 

I am curious as to why you decided to choose the top two team scorers each year for every team except Penn State's? Surely Quentin Wright scored more team points than Ruth in Philadelphia?

 

Wright scored 23 that year, Ruth 18.5. That brings PSU down to 281.5 Also, since I used Tony Nelson in 2011 and he only scored 9.5, let's use their second scorer in Zach Sanders at 11. This leaves Minny at 237.

 

My point here is, those other teams DIDN'T have Ruth/DT because Cael is a good recruiter. And beyond that, Cael is a good recruiter, because, when using the objective argument of removing the top two hammers from the best teams, his team STILL puts up the most points. The whole point of this thread is whether Cael is a good recruiter or not. OBVIOUSLY any team does well with those two, so the person who in fact actually gets them is the good recruiter.

 

Yes there are instances in which a 17/18 year old decommints from a verbal, or their parents want them to go somewhere else, or their gf decides to go somewhere else, or another school offers them more money. But when using the facts, which for us is NCAA tournament scoring, Penn St puts up the most points year after year because Cael can not only recruit hammers, but those extra two or three guys that can get top four and score 10 or 15 points for him. That is what makes him a good recruiter.

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Certainly no one is arguing that Cael isn't the greatest recruiter of all time. No one every before in the history of D1 college wrestling has gotten the number of top ten recruits that he has. Although Ohio State is now in the running.

 

PSU's current roster has 9 top ten overall recruits on it.

tOSU is surging with 7 top ten overall on it's roster.

Ok St is staying strong with 6 on it's roster.

 

Lowly Minnesota and Iowa have only 1 each. And that's in five years of recruiting.

So it is clear as to which teams are winning the recruiting war.

 

What's also clear from these numbers is which teams are good at coaching and developing talent.

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Billy, there is a limited amount of money to go around in every room, and coaches can't even talk about it until July 1, so whatever ideas Haines had he was, like all recruits, making an assumption.

 

The same issues pop up at all wrestling schools. The best wrestling schools need to spread money around to very good wrestlers. That may mean some kid getting less one year, more later. There is no fault, just the rules of life within the NCAA.

 

TBar,

 

Your 100% incorrect about coaches unable to talk about how much money they can offer recruits prior to July 1. Coaches may not be able to put it in writing but they verbally submit offers all the time.

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Certainly no one is arguing that Cael isn't the greatest recruiter of all time. No one every before in the history of D1 college wrestling has gotten the number of top ten recruits that he has. Although Ohio State is now in the running.

 

PSU's current roster has 9 top ten overall recruits on it.

tOSU is surging with 7 top ten overall on it's roster.

Ok St is staying strong with 6 on it's roster.

 

Lowly Minnesota and Iowa have only 1 each. And that's in five years of recruiting.

So it is clear as to which teams are winning the recruiting war.

 

What's also clear from these numbers is which teams are good at coaching and developing talent.

 

Didn't Iowa have higher ranked recruiting classes than PSU in that same time period?

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Minnesota did also. A bunch of guys in 30-50 range can boost a class especially when they fill certain needs.

 

If the topic was about coaching and developing talent then MN and IA certainly rank 1-2. But if you are just talking about recruiting then I'll take top ten guys any day.

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Anyway I'm going to end my portion of this discussion basically the same way I started it.

I think Cael is a great recruiter Have a great 4th everyone! USA! USA! USA!

 

Awesome! And I agree wholeheartedly, ocho, as you state above, Cael Sanderson IS a great recruiter! :D

I see what u did there misquoting me. Why can't you just let me have my concerns and live my life? How does my opinion effect you?

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Postby jammen » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:01 pm

"Certainly no one is arguing that Cael isn't the greatest recruiter of all time. No one every before in the history of D1 college wrestling has gotten the number of top ten recruits that he has. Although Ohio State is now in the running."

 

Maybe the best in this modern era .... Dan did a pretty good job at Iowa back in the day. Smith has been no slouch either.

 

Right now, Cael has the profile, charisma, track record (albeit short) and most importantly the personality. From every thing I've read, seen and witnessed at the NCAA's, he certainly seems to be a straight up "good guy" .

 

As to the recruiting "snafu", hey .... it happens. Every season by one coach or another. It's a crap shoot. Both kids ended up in a good program, and we'll see down the road who develops, and wins. It'll be interesting to see which one ends up the better wrestler. That, in of it self, is the true litmus test of how good a coach really is.

 

My question is: When will the Buckeyes "break out" and try to fulfill all the hype from over the last few recruiting classes? It's about time for them to break out ... This year? I'm thinking Minny is going to be better this season. JMO.

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Billy, there is a limited amount of money to go around in every room, and coaches can't even talk about it until July 1, so whatever ideas Haines had he was, like all recruits, making an assumption.

 

The same issues pop up at all wrestling schools. The best wrestling schools need to spread money around to very good wrestlers. That may mean some kid getting less one year, more later. There is no fault, just the rules of life within the NCAA.

 

TBar,

 

Your 100% incorrect about coaches unable to talk about how much money they can offer recruits prior to July 1. Coaches may not be able to put it in writing but they verbally submit offers all the time.

 

 

I vaguely recall Mr. Haines stating in an interview after the fiasco hat Cael did not make an offer prior to his last visit during the recruiting process. Wearther or not he was permitted, Cael should get some consideration for not going back on a previous offer!

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Billy, there is a limited amount of money to go around in every room, and coaches can't even talk about it until July 1, so whatever ideas Haines had he was, like all recruits, making an assumption.

 

The same issues pop up at all wrestling schools. The best wrestling schools need to spread money around to very good wrestlers. That may mean some kid getting less one year, more later. There is no fault, just the rules of life within the NCAA.

 

TBar,

 

Your 100% incorrect about coaches unable to talk about how much money they can offer recruits prior to July 1. Coaches may not be able to put it in writing but they verbally submit offers all the time.

 

 

I vaguely recall Mr. Haines stating in an interview after the fiasco hat Cael did not make an offer prior to his last visit during the recruiting process. Wearther or not he was permitted, Cael should get some consideration for not going back on a previous offer!

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Billy, there is a limited amount of money to go around in every room, and coaches can't even talk about it until July 1, so whatever ideas Haines had he was, like all recruits, making an assumption.

 

The same issues pop up at all wrestling schools. The best wrestling schools need to spread money around to very good wrestlers. That may mean some kid getting less one year, more later. There is no fault, just the rules of life within the NCAA.

 

TBar,

 

Your 100% incorrect about coaches unable to talk about how much money they can offer recruits prior to July 1. Coaches may not be able to put it in writing but they verbally submit offers all the time.

 

 

I vaguely recall Mr. Haines stating in an interview after the fiasco hat Cael did not make an offer prior to his last visit during the recruiting process. Wearther or not he was permitted, Cael should get some consideration for not going back on a previous offer!

 

BDB50 I read an article that supports your comment but Haines isn't the only recruit in the country. At the end of the day, rather it's PSU or some other school, the fact still remains that coaches discuss scholarships prior to July 1. These discussions generally occur with the top recruits. Think about wrestlers who commit early, prior to July 1st. Why would anyone commit to a school without knowing what it's going to cost the family for their athlete to attend the college. Some parents can afford to commit not knowing an verbal offer but I'm betting regardless of financial status, knowing the numbers is a bonus.

 

There is a difference between coaches verbal offers (pre-July 1) and coaches official offers (July 1). My comment is based solely on verbal offers only. If you look at Intermatwrestle or flo college commitments, there are over 20 wrestlers who have verbally committed to schools prior to July 1. Surely you don't think that none of them received verbal scholarship offers.

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Not sure what the coaches can't do or when but I suspect they could be doing their homework and be able to convey what a student athlete may be able to qualify for that is not athletic related (need, academic etc.).

This might give the prospective family an idea if that institution is doable knowing that athletic aid is probably a fluid portion which may in all probability vary from year to year!

 

My point in reposting that point made by Mr. Haines was to clear the air as to Cael putting a $ number out prior to 6/1.

 

I will admit I was a bit disappointed that Haines did not end up a Nittany Lion. I had seen him riding off after a PSU home match and can still picture the wide smile he had on his face.....nearly as big as the one on my face when I saw his!! :D

 

I will also state that after seeing more of Nevills in action, I can not fault Cael for his decision either! 9.9 and no ability for either kid to go up or down a weight class sure bites!!

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Cael will be defined as a coach and a recruiter based on the results of what happens with Zain's class. For him to be considered a great recruiter he has to get top level guys to take less money just to compete for Penn State. On that measure he has already lost Chance so he may not be. I he was fortunate to have Taylor follow him to Penn State and not use athletic scholarship money so he could give money to someone else on the team and make the team better. (not confirmed but I heard that Taylor was on an academic scholarship...full ride)

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Cael will be defined as a coach and a recruiter based on the results of what happens with Zain's class. For him to be considered a great recruiter he has to get top level guys to take less money just to compete for Penn State. On that measure he has already lost Chance so he may not be. I he was fortunate to have Taylor follow him to Penn State and not use athletic scholarship money so he could give money to someone else on the team and make the team better. (not confirmed but I heard that Taylor was on an academic scholarship...full ride)

 

Given how many times they have shifted the criteria, for some Hawkeye fans I doubt they'd ever consider Cael a great recruiter.

 

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he beats Iowa" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins the Big10"

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins an NCAA title" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins multiple Big10 titles"

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins multiple NCAA titles" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he (fill in the blank)"

 

He's won 4 straight NCAA titles. He will no doubt win many more.

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TBar1977, I think there is a difference between being a great coach and a great recruiter. If he would have stayed at Iowa State, do you think he would have won at least one NCAA title by now? He didn't think so that is why he left. He felt that he was loosing the recruiting battle to Iowa and pretty much couldn't recruit a national championship team at Iowa State. As for the accomplishments that he has gotten since he has been there has as much to do with things that having Ruth on the team, a guy that decided on his own to be at Penn State then his ability to recruit a great team. Not sure but I think Qwright was also own the team but would not have been if he was at Iowa State. For the record, I am not holding his titles against him because Brands titles were won much in the same way.

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Postby jammen » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:01 pm

"Certainly no one is arguing that Cael isn't the greatest recruiter of all time. No one every before in the history of D1 college wrestling has gotten the number of top ten recruits that he has. Although Ohio State is now in the running."

 

Maybe the best in this modern era .... Dan did a pretty good job at Iowa back in the day. Smith has been no slouch either.

 

Wire, do you have any lineups you could post? When Iowa set the 170 point record with 5 champs the team only had 3 top ten recruits as far as I can tell; Mena, McIlravy, and Joe Williams. Whitmer was a 103 lber in hs, Ironside 3rd team AA by AWN, Gillis an Asics 2nd teamer, Uker never won a state title, and Fullhart was an AWN 4th team.

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Wahawk, do you believe that had Sanderson been hired at Penn State two years before his actual hiring date that Ruth or Wright would have committed somewhere else other than to Penn State?

 

From my understanding, Ruth wanted to go to Penn State and would have gone there regardless of who was the coach but I don't know about Wright. But the question is not about Penn State it is if he is a great recruiter then why couldn't he attract guys to Iowa State. Iowa State would have had maybe two national champion in Taylor and Ruth, and can't remember if Reader placed first or second but that would have been a very high placing team.

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Wahawk, do you believe that had Sanderson been hired at Penn State two years before his actual hiring date that Ruth or Wright would have committed somewhere else other than to Penn State?

 

From my understanding, Ruth wanted to go to Penn State and would have gone there regardless of who was the coach but I don't know about Wright. But the question is not about Penn State it is if he is a great recruiter then why couldn't he attract guys to Iowa State. Iowa State would have had maybe two national champion in Taylor and Ruth, and can't remember if Reader placed first or second but that would have been a very high placing team.

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Given how many times they have shifted the criteria, for some Hawkeye fans I doubt they'd ever consider Cael a great recruiter.

 

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he beats Iowa" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins the Big10"

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins an NCAA title" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins multiple Big10 titles"

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he wins multiple NCAA titles" ...

"he won't be a great recruiter/coach until he (fill in the blank)"

 

He's won 4 straight NCAA titles. He will no doubt win many more.

-------

 

T-Bar, I and other Hawk fans have acknowledged Cael to be superb at recruiting top guys. There were several threads in Apr and May regarding that.

 

Here is what I said on 4/30:

 

"PSU has actually had higher overall rankings than Iowa over the last 8 years. And if you look at top 10 recruits, all classes combined, Iowa has had only one top 10 guy in the past 5 years - Mike Evans. PSU has far exceeded Iowa, with 8 - Nolf, Nevills, Nickal, Retherford, Guilibon, McIntosh, Megaludis, A Alton (plus Marstellar and Haines briefly).

 

and on 5/1:

 

"It amazes me that a few PSU fans seem just incapable of acknowledging that Cael has been pulling in the most highly ranked HS kids over the past 5 years. If you want to include top 25 or 50 HS recruits, Iowa catches up, but when talking about the bluest of blue chip recruits - top 5 , top 10 or top 15 all class, PSU is smoking Iowa and most everyone else (I think Northwestern had one stellar year).

 

None of this states that Cael isn't a good coach or that he doesn't develop talent. And a top 10 HS all class recruit is not a guaranteed success. But it is still a fact... Cael is starting with a ton of extremely elite HS talent."

 

-----

 

So you see T-Bar, we're not afraid to admit Cael is great at recruiting.

 

But the strange thing is, is that hearing Cael is a superb recruiter is upsetting to other PSU fans, if it comes from Iowa, Minny or whoever fans. They are afraid that if you say Cael gets top recruits, then, somehow it is falsely inferred that one is impugning Cael's ability to develop wrestlers.

 

e.g. Flying Tiger on May 2:

 

"btw, I think getting a recruiting class ranked first is a albatross because it gives opposing fan bases too much fodder. Iowa fans use to use it against Cael and now they are dealing with it from unruly fans such as myself."

 

So you see, we're criticized if we praise Cael's recruiting and criticized if we don't.

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Postby jammen » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:01 pm

"Certainly no one is arguing that Cael isn't the greatest recruiter of all time. No one every before in the history of D1 college wrestling has gotten the number of top ten recruits that he has. Although Ohio State is now in the running."

 

Maybe the best in this modern era .... Dan did a pretty good job at Iowa back in the day. Smith has been no slouch either.

 

Wire, do you have any lineups you could post? When Iowa set the 170 point record with 5 champs the team only had 3 top ten recruits as far as I can tell; Mena, McIlravy, and Joe Williams. Whitmer was a 103 lber in hs, Ironside 3rd team AA by AWN, Gillis an Asics 2nd teamer, Uker never won a state title, and Fullhart was an AWN 4th team.

 

NO ... not right off the top of my head. I just remember those 10 NC's and to do that, a coach has to get guys that totally and 100% buy into his philosophy/mindset. They may not have been Blue Chippers, yet that is what recruiting is all about. Getting the kids, that can get the job done on the mat, and most importantly at the end of the season during the NCAA's. That's recruiting !! Cael has the "draw", now let's see him finish a few more years.

 

I'm a fan of Cael for sure. And give him 5 or so more seasons, and then we will really see how good he is with recruiting, and more importantly, getting the guys to perform. The Alton's have been an example of how recruiting can be a crap shoot. Hopefully (just for the boys sake) they both can have a breakout year, and finish in style.

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Wahawk, do you believe that had Sanderson been hired at Penn State two years before his actual hiring date that Ruth or Wright would have committed somewhere else other than to Penn State?

 

From my understanding, Ruth wanted to go to Penn State and would have gone there regardless of who was the coach but I don't know about Wright. But the question is not about Penn State it is if he is a great recruiter then why couldn't he attract guys to Iowa State. Iowa State would have had maybe two national champion in Taylor and Ruth, and can't remember if Reader placed first or second but that would have been a very high placing team.

 

Wahawk, Ruth and Wright were both always going to be at Penn State. When people write that they were not Cael's recruits it comes off as them suggesting they'd have gone somewhere else had cael been at Penn State and that simply isn't the case at all.

 

As for Cael's recruiting prowess at Iowa State, not all places are the same. Iowa State plays second fiddle to your Hawkeyes in Iowa, and that school was always going to be an uphill battle regardless of who they had as their coach. Cael clearly made a great decision to come to Penn State and we are happy he did so. The past four national titles are evidence that he can win here. You may recall our last title came in 1953 and we were routinely NOT in the top 5 pre Cael.

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I'm curious if anyone who has posted regarding Sanderson's recruiting style has actually sit through one of his recruiting visits? Maybe PSU recruiting is a by product of the fact that PSU is winning now and wrestlers want to be part of a successful program regardless who's the head coach. If tOSU starts winning with all the top ranked wrestlers they have recruited in the last couple of years, then i'm sure you'll see them continue to get quality wrestlers and the PSU vs tOSU recruiting battle will be more intense then it currently is now.

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