Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
GuillermoBilletas

how to fix USA Wrestling HS level

Recommended Posts

Just get rid of the State Associations already. It is an antiquated model.

 

Events like Folk Nationals and FILAS become more and more popular because you get have to pay a set price, you just figure out how to get there and scrap. Seriously. Learn from flo and NHSCA, especially now that Fargo will be line bracketed.

 

Club coach, do you want to send your best kids to Fargo to wrestle for someone else, or would you rather be in their corner? Oh yeah, and after training a kid all year he has to go to camp and away from you the most important time of the year- the week before the event- often times to get run into the ground at 3 a days by coaches who have never trained him.

 

How many clubs would show up with great teams if the Cadet/ Junior etc… were club based instead of state based? imagine competing side by side with kids you trained with all year for a national title. jeez, it would look like……Disney? what a concept.

 

Who benefits from state associations? Seriously? Why do we do this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have a piece coming out about exactly this. i've been ready to unleash something about the topic for years.

 

the state assc thing isn't broke. but it's not set up right, that's for sure.

 

and it kinda turns my stomach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a great idea and I agree with you, but it won't happen. Too much money changes hands with the current system. The state associations will never part with the revenue and freebies, paid for by the kids attending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a great idea and I agree with you, but it won't happen. Too much money changes hands with the current system. The state associations will never part with the revenue and freebies, paid for by the kids attending.

 

Not sure what you mean. The state associations (I guess I can only speak about NJ) make their money at the kids level with cards and the kids state series. It might not seem like it but the trips are a break even / lose money operation. They definitely were a few years back when I was keeping the books. It might be closer now with the way we run the camps currently but the price really hasn't changed much in 20 years. We tried to make the cost per kid what it cost us per kid for all factors (food, lodging, transportation, entry fees, uniforms, medical, camp costs). In general, the cost to send coaches came from the fund- as in what was made at the kids level.

I won't argue whether it is a very cost efficient method for the kids but the state would actually gain financially by dropping the trips.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a great idea and I agree with you, but it won't happen. Too much money changes hands with the current system. The state associations will never part with the revenue and freebies, paid for by the kids attending.

 

Not sure what you mean. The state associations (I guess I can only speak about NJ) make their money at the kids level with cards and the kids state series. It might not seem like it but the trips are a break even / lose money operation. They definitely were a few years back when I was keeping the books. It might be closer now with the way we run the camps currently but the price really hasn't changed much in 20 years. We tried to make the cost per kid what it cost us per kid for all factors (food, lodging, transportation, entry fees, uniforms, medical, camp costs). In general, the cost to send coaches came from the fund- as in what was made at the kids level.

I won't argue whether it is a very cost efficient method for the kids but the state would actually gain financially by dropping the trips.

 

Not every state is the same bud. I'll leave it at that.

 

And if there really is no financial incentive for any state at the association level, then the above idea would have been implemented years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a great idea and I agree with you, but it won't happen. Too much money changes hands with the current system. The state associations will never part with the revenue and freebies, paid for by the kids attending.

 

Not sure what you mean. The state associations (I guess I can only speak about NJ) make their money at the kids level with cards and the kids state series. It might not seem like it but the trips are a break even / lose money operation. They definitely were a few years back when I was keeping the books. It might be closer now with the way we run the camps currently but the price really hasn't changed much in 20 years. We tried to make the cost per kid what it cost us per kid for all factors (food, lodging, transportation, entry fees, uniforms, medical, camp costs). In general, the cost to send coaches came from the fund- as in what was made at the kids level.

I won't argue whether it is a very cost efficient method for the kids but the state would actually gain financially by dropping the trips.

 

Not every state is the same bud. I'll leave it at that.

 

And if there really is no financial incentive for any state at the association level, then the above idea would have been implemented years ago.

Using rough NJ numbers- do you really think that we can make more money from the 75 kids we're bring to Fargo than from the 3-5,000 members statewide? It would only take about $2-3 per head statewide to equate to $100 per Fargo kid.

The stories of gouging that I've heard of involve money coming from the USA cards and state admin people selling equipment. I realize people complain about the price of going to Fargo but most of that is flight costs. A family can often go out for about as much as the kid himself if they drive versus flying but then the parents need to take nearly a week off to do it. And if it went this way, I believe kids would miss out on the ability to train with the best kids across the state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guillermo- how do you propose just dropping the state association? Who will organize the FS&GR tournaments in each state, getting the facilities, officials, table help etc... Someone would still have to coordinate the trip to Fargo.

Again, I would like to see USA wrestling get involved. Maybe set the by laws for each state and oversee elections. Work as one entity to maximize cost savings to the participants for travel and singlets and gear.

 

I am sure the question has been asked many times, but why Fargo? Is it because the facilities are cheap even though the travel may be more cumbersome and expensive?

 

HuskerDu - I would like to read your article. It could actually be somewhat similar to the podcast that you and Martin did on DI coaches "which state directors need to go"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Illinois hopes to break even with Fargo but never does. They are no where near covering their costs when it comes to the dual teams. Like NJ the money used to cover these trips is in the selling of the USAW athlete, coaches and officials cards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some states organize trips to USAW Folkstyle Nationals. While it isn't mandatory, it is a great option for kids that can't get out there another way. They still leave the option for a kid to go with their club or coach. I think this is a great option for Fargo in that if a parent or coach is going they don't have to go through the rigamarole of going through the state association.

 

State associations still need to be around for running of state and local events. Having less to do for Fargo or other trips would open up resources for their local and state events.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am sure the question has been asked many times, but why Fargo? Is it because the facilities are cheap even though the travel may be more cumbersome and expensive?

I won't speak for USAW but there aren't a lot of facilities capable of running something this big and involved. I suspect that if USA were to decide to get away from the state aspect of an event like this it would open up a few more venues since dorms wouldn't be necessary. But still not many. As it is, pretty much only schools with indoor football stadiums and people that don't mind having kids invade the dorms. In the 70s we were at U Iowa and in the 80s at UNI. As I understand it, the main reason they moved from UNI was that the people in charge of the dorms no longer wanted to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guillermo- how do you propose just dropping the state association? Who will organize the FS&GR tournaments in each state, getting the facilities, officials, table help etc... Someone would still have to coordinate the trip to Fargo.

Again, I would like to see USA wrestling get involved. Maybe set the by laws for each state and oversee elections. Work as one entity to maximize cost savings to the participants for travel and singlets and gear.

 

I am sure the question has been asked many times, but why Fargo? Is it because the facilities are cheap even though the travel may be more cumbersome and expensive?

 

HuskerDu - I would like to read your article. It could actually be somewhat similar to the podcast that you and Martin did on DI coaches "which state directors need to go"

 

1- Why do we need state tourneys? Do you need them to go to FILA Cadet or USA Folk Nationals?

2- Why do you have to have a camp? Why do you have to have a state team? Why do you have to have gear?

 

Just a bad way of thinking. Makes no sense.

 

Just open up the tourney. It is going to be line bracketing anyway. give seeding preference to Regional placewinners and let anyone who wants to wrestle.

 

If you want to keep states fine, but a kid should NOT have to travel with a state team, without his coaches, etc… to compete

 

No state teams= less cost. that simple. And the better kids will start coming back, too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's a great idea and I agree with you, but it won't happen. Too much money changes hands with the current system. The state associations will never part with the revenue and freebies, paid for by the kids attending.

 

Not sure what you mean. The state associations (I guess I can only speak about NJ) make their money at the kids level with cards and the kids state series. It might not seem like it but the trips are a break even / lose money operation. They definitely were a few years back when I was keeping the books. It might be closer now with the way we run the camps currently but the price really hasn't changed much in 20 years. We tried to make the cost per kid what it cost us per kid for all factors (food, lodging, transportation, entry fees, uniforms, medical, camp costs). In general, the cost to send coaches came from the fund- as in what was made at the kids level.

I won't argue whether it is a very cost efficient method for the kids but the state would actually gain financially by dropping the trips.

 

I don't think they are making money, I'm sure they are hoping to break even

 

Which makes their existence even more befuddling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1- Why do we need state tourneys? Do you need them to go to FILA Cadet or USA Folk Nationals?

2- Why do you have to have a camp? Why do you have to have a state team? Why do you have to have gear?

1. Why do we need state tourneys? Do we "need" state tournaments? No we don't need them per se, but they are good for the kids and most that participate in the state tournament don't go to a national event. Most have no intention of wrestling past the state tournament so this is their end of season so thus this is a good thing for our states.

Do you need them to go to FILA Cadet or USA Folk Nationals?

Some states require a kid to participate in their folkstyle state finals in order to participate at USAW Folkstyle Nationals. That being said if you say you had a family event or were injured you can still go, so it is very loosely enforced.

 

2. Why do you have to have a camp? So egotistical coaches can run the kids through the ringer two days before the event. It is intended for kids to get to know the coaches, but in all honesty a waste of time.

Why do you have to have a state team?

No clue on the whole reason behind it.

Why do you have to have gear?

If you are going to pay $500-2000 for a trip you might as well get some fancy Team XXXX State gear with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly

 

The whole model is broken.

 

State coaches are like SCOTUS judges- they serve for life. Some attend zero events. A lot don't even have kids on the team. Some are college coaches looking for free trip to recruit

 

If you want to keep state tourneys, fine. you could even award seeding points for them. But they should not be a requirement to participate in Fargo. Neither should state teams. It is stupid.

 

Fixed Fargo cost for me to take 3 club kids

Gas- - $300

Hotels $700

Entry fees $150

Floor pass for me- $50

 

$400 per kid tops- no more than a week at Va Beach or Akron or Vegas

 

State teams= bureacracy at its finest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GuillermoBilletas - what state are you from? Do they not let you coach your club kids? You say the whole model is broken, are you referring to your state or all states? I don't think the model is broken in all states as some states run very nicely using the state model.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The model is broken in Florida.

 

They do not form the best staff (Russ Cozart, was NOT named to the coaching staff). The National Teams Director makes it difficult for you to coach your club kids (must have his approval). The eligibility process is a pain and outdated. It WOULD be cheaper to purchase your own accommodations.

 

And even more importantly, the State Chairman received, *this is a correction*, $76,463.71 for 2013 "reimbursements."

 

Oh yes. The state model is broken.

 

(fun fact: USA Wrestling tried to get the Tampa Sports Commission to host the Junior Duals. Denied after realizing that Disney hosts a tournament with 167 team and USA Wrestling declined to "open" the tournament.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I and a boatload of other parents have the same basic issues as it relates to the national tournaments. We hate the fact that we have to be certified and run through the whole background check just to coach OUR OWN KIDS at the national tournaments. If they just opened them up and allowed me to pay my own entrance fee and get a floor pass I’d attend more. As it is there are plenty of events where I don’t need any of that nonsense so I don’t need USA.

 

The whole insurance thing is a non sequitur; insurance for these events can be purchased for only a few dollars per wrestler. RMN, America’s Crown, and The World of Wrestling are managing to get by without the whole membership and coaches’ card.

 

This would entice me to head to Iowa and a few other tournaments but Fargo will still be out unless they dropped Greco and added folk style. My kid will travel 10 hours for a tiny podunk folk style tournament but fights tooth and nail against attending a freestyle tournament across the street.

 

As far as the state association goes, we really don’t care. As I said we’d just like more local folk style events but other than that the rest is irrelevant. All associations have good people , bad people, people that just want to say they’re involved, people that want to brag the got to coach kid X, weird people, and people that are just plain AS***les to the 25th power. You’ll never get rid of them or really make things better, you can only hope to fend your way through the morass without getting too much smelly stuff on your shoes.

 

 

 

 

Essentially at a certain point it comes down to basic economics. Is it more cost effective to send my kid to a month of camps or one summer tournament in a style he doesn’t even like where some stranger stands in his corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I and a boatload of other parents have the same basic issues as it relates to the national tournaments. We hate the fact that we have to be certified and run through the whole background check just to coach OUR OWN KIDS at the national tournaments. If they just opened them up and allowed me to pay my own entrance fee and get a floor pass I’d attend more. As it is there are plenty of events where I don’t need any of that nonsense so I don’t need USA.

 

The whole insurance thing is a non sequitur; insurance for these events can be purchased for only a few dollars per wrestler. RMN, America’s Crown, and The World of Wrestling are managing to get by without the whole membership and coaches’ card.

 

This would entice me to head to Iowa and a few other tournaments but Fargo will still be out unless they dropped Greco and added folk style. My kid will travel 10 hours for a tiny podunk folk style tournament but fights tooth and nail against attending a freestyle tournament across the street.

 

As far as the state association goes, we really don’t care. As I said we’d just like more local folk style events but other than that the rest is irrelevant. All associations have good people , bad people, people that just want to say they’re involved, people that want to brag the got to coach kid X, weird people, and people that are just plain AS***les to the 25th power. You’ll never get rid of them or really make things better, you can only hope to fend your way through the morass without getting too much smelly stuff on your shoes.

 

 

 

 

Essentially at a certain point it comes down to basic economics. Is it more cost effective to send my kid to a month of camps or one summer tournament in a style he doesn’t even like where some stranger stands in his corner.

If every few wrestlers brought their own coach we would have such a mess on the floor it would be impossible to watch, and if several of those were dad's we wouldn't be able to get refs. Most kids are better off without dad in the corner. Also how many dad are really qualified to coach at that level. I won't comment on state associations but I will say Minnesota is better off with one. If ours can work so can your's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you saying all of those organizations that do not require a citified coach or even a coaches’ card are somehow failing? Not sure that I’d agree with that assessment since RMN and Roller’s events have been doing extremely well indeed. Somehow Reno and Tulsa manage to go off without a hitch every single year.

 

 

And I assure you I am far more qualified to coach my own kid than some stranger. It isn’t rocket science to know the rule book and understand mat strategy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having to go through a background check is a necessary evil in today's society. With as many events that USAW and states host it just takes one incident to cause a huge increase in liability. Don't blame USAW for forcing you to get a background check, blame a sue happy society.

 

If you want to complain about the bronze or copper certifications I will join you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you saying all of those organizations that do not require a citified coach or even a coaches’ card are somehow failing? Not sure that I’d agree with that assessment since RMN and Roller’s events have been doing extremely well indeed. Somehow Reno and Tulsa manage to go off without a hitch every single year.

 

 

And I assure you I am far more qualified to coach my own kid than some stranger. It isn’t rocket science to know the rule book and understand mat strategy.

It may not be rocket science to know the rules but most still don't. Also I disagree on mat strategy. Having an eye for the small details that can truly change a match are not easily realized by most especially when they are emotionally involved. I am bronze certified and I do volunteer coach at School boy duals and have been offered access to the floor at Fargo but have declined because I know I can't offer what Dan Chandler, Brandon Paulson, Dave Zuniga, Jake Clark and many other elite coaches and wrestlers have to offer. In my opinion there aren't more than 25 people in the country who can offer what our Storm team does for coaches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Having to go through a background check is a necessary evil in today's society. With as many events that USAW and states host it just takes one incident to cause a huge increase in liability. Don't blame USAW for forcing you to get a background check, blame a sue happy society.

 

If you want to complain about the bronze or copper certifications I will join you.

 

I'll agree it's an evil but I won't agree it's necessary. As I said all those other groups manage to get by without them. It's just USA covering their butts legally just in case some club coach does something untoward but that has nothing to do with me wanting to coach my own kid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you saying all of those organizations that do not require a citified coach or even a coaches’ card are somehow failing? Not sure that I’d agree with that assessment since RMN and Roller’s events have been doing extremely well indeed. Somehow Reno and Tulsa manage to go off without a hitch every single year.

 

 

And I assure you I am far more qualified to coach my own kid than some stranger. It isn’t rocket science to know the rule book and understand mat strategy.

It may not be rocket science to know the rules but most still don't. Also I disagree on mat strategy. Having an eye for the small details that can truly change a match are not easily realized by most especially when they are emotionally involved. I am bronze certified and I do volunteer coach at School boy duals and have been offered access to the floor at Fargo but have declined because I know I can't offer what Dan Chandler, Brandon Paulson, Dave Zuniga, Jake Clark and many other elite coaches and wrestlers have to offer. In my opinion there aren't more than 25 people in the country who can offer what our Storm team does for coaches.

 

There's 4,000 kids at Fargo and way fewer at all the other regional an national events. There is no way you can honestly believe that all of those coaches are somehow uniquely qualified to coach all those kids.

 

I still stand by my statement that a lot of us dads who have been coaching our own kids for 10+ years are in a better position to handle the situation than some guy that has had little to no substantive contact with my kid. And if we're not able to handle it then it is we who should be deciding who is qualified to handle our kids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said, the states are on totally different levels. You have organizations like Illinois and Wisconsin that have a terrific system in place. Not all states have that and you are at the mercy of your state system.

 

Look at the makeup of the teams and you'll get a pretty good indicator of which states are doing the right things, and which ones are doing their "own thing".

 

Fargo/Jr Duals, etc are great events but until the event structure is reformed, you're always going to be missing kids from state organzations that can't get their act together. And for those that think you HAVE to go to these events, you don't unless you don't consider Penn State knowledgble in recruiting. Nevills never wrestled a single event, Cadet or Junior. If you're good, you're good. The events need the wrestlers. The wrestlers don't need the events.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Like I said, the states are on totally different levels. You have organizations like Illinois and Wisconsin that have a terrific system in place. Not all states have that and you are at the mercy of your state system.

 

Look at the makeup of the teams and you'll get a pretty good indicator of which states are doing the right things, and which ones are doing their "own thing".

 

Fargo/Jr Duals, etc are great events but until the event structure is reformed, you're always going to be missing kids from state organzations that can't get their act together. And for those that think you HAVE to go to these events, you don't unless you don't consider Penn State knowledgble in recruiting. Nevills never wrestled a single event, Cadet or Junior. If you're good, you're good. The events need the wrestlers. The wrestlers don't need the events.

 

Interesting point. What do you think is the most important (I agree with you, by the way)? What have college coaches told you about competing in certain events and how they play a part in recruitment?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...