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JohnnyThompsonnum1

States without VARSITY College Wrestling

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I think the NCWA is great and I have a lot of respect and admiration for the NCWA and the people involved in it. It's one of the reasons why I have gotten so worked up and refuse to drop the issue. Superbowlhomeboy is making it out to be as if I am disrespectful and dissing the NCWA. He's treating me as if I am undermining the NCWA, because I am not putting it on the same par as I am the NCAA DI, DII, DIII, NAIA and NJCAA. He's acting as if I'm saying that the wrestlers and the coaches aren't worthy of recognition. They are worthy of recognition. The same way the University of Iowa's Non-varsity hockey team is worthy of recognition.

 

Yet on the same hand, and he knows this too, if you treat the NCWA as if it is exactly the same as the NCAA DI, DII, DIII, NAIA and NJCAA then you run into the problem of administrators and athletic directors ALSO thinking that it is the exact same and using it as an excuse to not have varsity wrestling at their schools. I ran into this back in 2008, when I did an article about college wrestling in Texas and spoke with various A.D.'s, S.I.D's and Administrators at Texas and Georgia schools with NCWA teams. Their attitude was, they wouldn't and they would never need to add wrestling programs to their school, because they already were affiliates of the NCWA.

 

William Doggett Started an NCWA wrestling program at the University of Texas years and years ago, but when you look at the college wrestling programs in Texas, it list Wayland Baptist as the one and only program in the state of Texas. Maybe others would like it if Texas's NCWA team got more recognition and the wrestlers and coaches were treated as if they were NCAA DI. It's not the way it is though and I'm not being disrespectful to the NCWA for acknowledging and recognizing that.

 

This is the most valuable perspective you have shared in this post and a commonly held belief regarding the NCWA. Seriously, this is good stuff that should be discussed. Tone is hard to interpret online so I will state explicitly that I am not being facetious or sarcastic.

 

Adding a program at a D1 school differs greatly from adding a program at a D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA, or NCWA varsity program. When it comes to D1, the only thing that matters is money. When I say money, I'm not talking annual budget money I'm talking about enough money to endow both wrestling and a corresponding women's sport. We are talking in the neighborhood of $10,000,000. Enough money can solve any issue (facilities, gender compliance, travel budget, etc.).

 

When it comes to adding programs at these smaller schools a lot of different factors come into play. Lately we've seen a lot of programs added at smaller schools in order to drive student enrollment in states and regions where there aren't as many schools offering competitive wrestling.

 

Looking at some of the more successful NCWA club programs that are candidates for adding varsity programs (Liberty, UCF, FGCU, UNF, MTSU, GVSU, Texas, West Chester, etc.) most of them are larger NCAA division one schools that would require millions of dollars to get a varsity program up and running. The two exceptions being West Chester and GVSU who are division 2 and would still require a large financial sum. The NCWA is not to be blamed for these schools not having programs - the almighty dollar is.

 

Though I could imagine a scenario where a very small school might not add a varsity program because of an already large and successful club program that keeps kids in school and paying tuition, I do not believe that one exists in the NCWA. Looking at the NCWA standings and top 40 or so schools, I cannot find anywhere where that scenario seems likely. Most of them are large D1 universities or small schools that are already varsity programs but not members of other associations for one reason or another (see Apprentice). There are a few schools outside the top 40 that could be suspects, but they don't seem to have the numbers that would lead any AD or admin to that conclusion. It is certainly possible, but I don't believe that NCWA programs are holding any school back from adding a varsity program. I wouldn't put it past some people though.

 

I am curious to know what programs you spoke to so the situation can be addressed more specifically.

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Secondly, do you ever tell the truth? Are you capable of saying anything other than lies? You are a liar. I never once made the assumption or accusation that you were president of the NCWA. That's about the 5th or 6th blatant lie you have said about me on this website. You ever think that maybe you'd be better off to tell the truth?

 

If I can prove that you came at me claiming I was a 51 year old head coach who was 230lbs and also the president of the NWCA, will you disable your account and stop posting?

 

I was told that you were someone that you were not by someone else. I was under the impression that is who you were. If that person happens to be the president of the NCWA, I was unaware of that information.

 

You olddirty are a liar.

You never talked to who you claim u talked to. When asked they never heard of an olddirt or a Matt Holt.

You tell people that I am johhnyh, when I am not. I have no idea who Johhnyh is.

You claim that I p.m. people all the time. In my nearly 14 years here, I've p.m'd less than 20 times.

You claim that I threatened u with physical violence. Saying I'd like to do something and I'd like to see certain things to you and saying that I will do something, are two different things.

You said that I directly called you president of the NCWA. I never directly called you president of the NCWA.

 

You're a pompous and you're a liar. You were a much better wrestler than me, and you think that makes you a God. Shame you take no pride in being a decent person, and in case you think you are a decent person, decent people don't lie.

 

So are you dicktucking on your claims that you didnt call me out on being someone who I am not just like you did when renaming the thread title after you realized you were wrong? Nice. Even the founder of the NWCA is on here and you still are trying to backtrack.

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So are you dicktucking on your claims that you didnt call me out on being someone who I am not just like you did when renaming the thread title after you realized you were wrong? Nice. Even the founder of the NWCA is on here and you still are trying to backtrack.

 

No, that's not what I said. I said that I did accuse you of being someone that you were not. I explained that. I was told that you were someone that you weren't and I did think that was you. Same way that you accused me of being johnnyh, only when I found out that you weren't who I thought you were, I apologized and made the correction. As far as I know, because I haven't had indication of otherwise, you still accuse johnnyh of being me and me of being johnnyh. What I said, if you had any comprehension skills whatsoever, is that I never once called you deliberately the head president of the NCWA. Now the person I accused you of being, may very well be the president of the NCWA, but if he is, that is knowledge I was not privy to.

 

I never claimed that I didn't add the word varsity, to be more distinct. It has nothing to do with being wrong, it has to do with being more politically correct and making a clearer distinction. Everyone else on the messageboard understood what I meant, but for the sake of being absolutely clear on what I meant, I added the word varsity.

 

You sir, are still a liar.

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I agree college wrestling is a broad term that incudes JC and four-year "institutional" supported programs. The key word being institutional.  Club programs, generally speaking, are student-generated, student-funded (primarily), student-managed, and student-run. It is operated at a college or university outside of the auspices of the athletic department. It also may compete against other club teams or varsity programs.  Much has to do with the funding and support.  Varsities and most clubs are furthermore governed by a collegiate sport organization.

In the NCWA, some programs satisfy these conditions as a varsity program, however, most are considered club programs.  In the past, many programs transitioning from one NCAA or NAIA division to another competed under the NCWA brand.  There is a "grey" area, just like in the NCAA's and NAIA for teams that undergo this process, called probation or provisional. During this time, they cannot compete for a NCAA/NAIA championship.

Because club teams do not formally represent their respective colleges or universities, does this mean they are not intercollegiate?  I think not.  Intercollegiate sports has been around a long time, even before the NCAA came into existence.

Whether club or varsity, it has nothing to do with skill-level.  But by-and-large the institutionally supported programs are better off due to school support. The Club usually seeks varsity status which will stabilize the program and cover expenses  However, some large D1's don't want added expenses associated with a D1 program and want to stay as a club, especially with today's Title lX restrictions.

Edited by DennyTheGrappler

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It's a shame University of Delaware doesn't have a Program anymore...It's a great University that borders NJ and Pennsylvania. It's a very small state but the HS Wrestling is very good and they host maybe the best HS Tournament in USA.

Edited by moveurfeet32

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So let’s see........JonnyThompsonnum1 don’t know anything about college wrestling,and  Iowa has a club hockey team....,,,superbowlhomeboy is very sensitive with the word “CLUB” and olddirty is a liar!  Rereading this again,
That about sums it up.., who the hell brought this thread up from the archives? Was that you moveurfeet? So you can tell us Delaware don’t have Varsity wrestling. There you go again being negative, remember why JB said. :)

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, moveurfeet32 said:

It's a shame University of Delaware doesn't have a Program anymore...It's a great University that borders NJ and Pennsylvania. It's a very small state but the HS Wrestling is very good and they host maybe the best HS Tournament in USA.

Delaware was good in the past.  In the seventies, they had a 190 (Roy Baker) that won the Wilkes tourney.  Too bad it's gone.

 

Edited by DennyTheGrappler

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On 1/23/2021 at 6:27 PM, BigJ said:

Fyi Florida has a few NAIA wrestling teams South Eastern, Kaiser, and St. Thomas University 

Is South Eastern the one where they built a wrestling facility just like Cornell’s.

I think they have a dual win over a D1 team this year. 

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10 hours ago, Pinnum said:

Fyi Florida has a few NAIA wrestling teams South Eastern, Kaiser, and St. Thomas University - by BigJ

Is South Eastern the one where they built a wrestling facility just like Cornell’s.

I think they have a dual win over a D1 team this year.

That's good the three Florida schools can wrestle each other along with a few schools in Georgia.  I remember when the SEC had wrestling with Georgia, Georgia Tech, Florida, Alabama, LSU, Tennesse, and Kentucky all having teams.  Joe Carr wrestled for his bother, Fletcher, at Kentucky.  He beat a friend of mine, Paul Bruns, for the SEC title.  Both went to NCAA D1 nationals where Joe took 3rd place. Great teams, Great facilities, and Great wrestling.

Clemson had wrestling, and I think Auburn, as well.  Wade Schalles coached at Clemson. Now all they care about is football :-(

Edited by DennyTheGrappler
change qoute

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And that jerk (trying to keep it clean) Charley Pell came from Clemson and was instrumental in the University of Florida dropping its wrestling program, which started the dominoes dropping in the SEC.

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6 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

And that jerk (trying to keep it clean) Charley Pell came from Clemson and was instrumental in the University of Florida dropping its wrestling program, which started the dominoes dropping in the SEC.

Well, at least Missouri has a very strong program, still.

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7 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

And that jerk (trying to keep it clean) Charley Pell came from Clemson and was instrumental in the University of Florida dropping its wrestling program, which started the dominoes dropping in the SEC.

Charley "The Cheat" Pell - Didn't he want the wrestling room for some type of office or space for the football program?

Edited by smsu150

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On 1/23/2021 at 5:27 PM, BigJ said:

Fyi Florida has a few NAIA wrestling teams South Eastern, Kaiser, and St. Thomas University 

You understand that this post is 7 years old right?   I've been to Southeastern before.  Unfortunately not during the wrestling season so I wasn't able to attend a dual there.  Nice facilities though.  I hope one day to get down there to watch some wrestling as well as to Keiser and St Thomas.  I think it's only a matter of time before more schools have wrestling in Florida. NJCAA wrestling would be great to have down there with all of their community/junior colleges.  Miami-Dade at one time was rather competitive and could be again.

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On 1/23/2021 at 12:45 PM, moveurfeet32 said:

It's a shame University of Delaware doesn't have a Program anymore...It's a great University that borders NJ and Pennsylvania. It's a very small state but the HS Wrestling is very good and they host maybe the best HS Tournament in USA.

Delware has produced greats like Sheldon Thomas and Bobby Telford over the years, but neither went to Delaware State when it did have a program. Seems that none of the good Delaware kids would go to DSU when it had a program. Not sure why. I'm sure there's good reason, I'm just not sure what it was. 

Information on Delaware Wrestling = https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/02/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-delaware_22.html

Information on Delaware State Wrestling = https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/02/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-delaware.html

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On 1/21/2021 at 10:33 PM, DennyTheGrappler said:

I agree college wrestling is a broad term that incudes JC and four-year "institutional" supported programs. The key word being institutional.  Club programs, generally speaking, are student-generated, student-funded (primarily), student-managed, and student-run. It is operated at a college or university outside of the auspices of the athletic department. It also may compete against other club teams or varsity programs.  Much has to do with the funding and support.  Varsities and most clubs are furthermore governed by a collegiate sport organization.

In the NCWA. some programs satisfy these conditions as a varsity proram, however, most are considered club programs.  In the past, many programs transitioning from one NCAA or NAIA division to another competed under the NCWA brand.  There is a "grey" area just like in the NCAA's and NAIA teams that undergo this process, called probation. During this time, they cannot compete for a NCAA/NAIA championship.

Because club teams do not formally represent their respective colleges or universities, does this mean they are not intercollegiate?  I think not.  Intercollegiate sports has been around a long time, even before the NCAA came into existence.

Whether club or varsity, it has nothing to do with skill-level.  But by-and-large the institutionally supported programs are better off due to school support. The Club usually seeks varsity status which will stabilize the program and cover expenses  However. some large D1's don't want added expenses associated with a D1 program and want to stay as a club, especially with today's Title lX restrictions.

Over the past 7 years, I wrote about NCWA programs a number of times.  I did a full length feature article on the Iowa State wrestling club. I'd share it here, but unfortunately I do not have the rights to the article I wrote. My articles I wrote during that time for Takedownwrestle were sold (along with everything else for Takedown) to theopenmat.  If I want copies of articles that I wrote, I have to pay for them. I'm not doing that.  The NCWA website at one time had the article up.  Not sure if they would still have a copy of it or not.  

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11 hours ago, DennyTheGrappler said:

That's good the three Florida schools can wrestle each other along with a few schools in Georgia.  I remember when the SEC had wrestling with Georgia, Georgia Tech, Florida, Alabama, LSU, Tennesse, and Kentucky all having teams.  Joe Carr wrestled for his bother, Fletcher, at Kentucky.  He beat a friend of mine, Paul Bruns, for the SEC title.  Both went to NCAA D1 nationals where Joe took 3rd place. Great teams, Great facilities, and Great wrestling.

Clemson had wrestling, and I think Auburn, as well.  Wade Schalles coached at Clemson. Now all they care about is football :-(

I did a comprehensive study on SEC wrestling about four years ago. 

https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2017/09/solving-mystery-that-was-sec.html

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1 hour ago, smsu150 said:

Charley "The Cheat" Pell - Didn't he want the wrestling room for some type of office or space for the football program?

Here's an article I did on Florida Gator wrestling https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/05/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-florida.html 

I didn't go into full detail & again this is what I have been told. Never verified whether this is true or not.  This is simply what a guy involved in Florida Gator wrestling in the late 70's told me. So again, I'll use the word allegedly. 

He said that Pell purposefully worked with the numbers to make sure that Florida would be in violation of Title IX. He wanted the space and resources wrestling was taking up for the football program as well as to use the money for wrestling to increase scholarship $$ for the football program. By eliminating wrestling, Florida became compliant with Title IX and Pell was able to do exactly what he wanted to do.  That's the information I was given when I did my research for Florida Gator wrestling.  

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I wish Swede Umbach was Alabama's new Senator. I don't know if he is alive, but I will bet he knew the three branches of the federal government, unlike Tuberville.

To restore an SEC you would need 5 teams, plus missouri. Cost $150 million of endowment. $30M for each school, for a wrestling program, and two womens teams, and $1M bribe to the AD.

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19 hours ago, DennyTheGrappler said:

Delaware was good in the past.  In the seventies, they had a 190 (Roy Baker) that won the Wilkes tourney.  Too bad it's gone.

 

Roy Baker was/is Awesome...NJ State Champ...Became a New Jersey State trooper and was shot 2x in a drug raid in a Camden Chinese restaurant and almost lost his life

Edited by moveurfeet32

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1 hour ago, RichB said:

I wish Swede Umbach was Alabama's new Senator. I don't know if he is alive, but I will bet he knew the three branches of the federal government, unlike Tuberville.

To restore an SEC you would need 5 teams, plus missouri. Cost $150 million of endowment. $30M for each school, for a wrestling program, and two womens teams, and $1M bribe to the AD.

Umbach would be 118 years old if he were alive today. When he graduated from Southwestern Oklahoma State, the wrestling world was still a few years shy of seeing the first NCAA tournament. 

 

 

 

He was so instrumental in building collegiate Wrestling in the south. The brain child behind SEIWA & the head of SEC Wrestling.  Nearly every team that added Wrestling in the south during Umbach's time has since dropped. Yet I think you'd be shocked of how many schools DID have Wrestling at one time. 

 

 

 

I also wouldn't trust endowments to save or secure Wrestling. Bucky O'Connor set up a permanent endowment at Notre Dame to ensure Wrestling would last forever after his son Pat was murdered in Europe in between his sophomore & junior year.  O'Connor passed away in 1991 & Dick Rosenthal & company began an immediate coaxing of Bucky's wife/Pat's mom. By the start of the 1992-1993 school year, it was announced that Wrestling would be dropped & the Pat O'Connor endowment would fund other sports. 

 

 

 

How any Wrestling fan can cheer Fighting Irish football is beyond me. I want to puke everytime I see it. 

Edited by JohnnyThompsonnum1

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"Varsity Programs"  aka non Club,  although some "NCWA teams"  are funded by their school.   I will say this.  There are a  lot of schools out there claiming to have a varsity wrestling program or even a team...but if you can't cover 80% of the weight classes and have at least 15 wrestlers in the room.  Opt out of duals if you don't have enough guys.  That falls back on piss poor recruiting.  You can only blame administration so long,  but remember if you are still around and you blame administration for not fielding a full team...you are one of their bad decisions as well. 

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On 7/8/2014 at 5:19 PM, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

 

If they are paid for by the school, and have full time coaching staffs AND they would put most DIII schools to shame, why don't they just become varsity status? Or at least TRY and become varsity status? I guess I don't get that. Explain that to me.

I can tell you what one wrestling person told me. They explained that the NAIA and NCAA don't really care about wrestling but the NCWA only cares about wrestling. That's why they won't switch.

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12 hours ago, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

I did a comprehensive study on SEC wrestling about four years ago. 

https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2017/09/solving-mystery-that-was-sec.html

Very thorough research done.  You're correct about SEC teams, such as; when schools fielded wrestling teams; when their teams were in the SEC; and if they were independents or left the conference.  Good knowledge concerning qualifiers and A-A's. 

Although Clemson is in the ACC, they did produce two NCAA champs:  Noel Loban (1980) and  Sammie Henson (1993, 1994).  Loban was a bronze medalist at the 1984 Olympics representing Great Britain.  He was born in London. He also won a JUCO title at Farmingdale Agricultural and Technical College (now Farmingdale State College) in NY.  Henson, from Missouri, won a world title and a silver medal at 2000 Olympics. Even though Clemson is in the ACC, I tend to think of them like their other southern football cronies and because they're in South Carolina.

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On 1/25/2021 at 8:49 PM, DennyTheGrappler said:

That's good the three Florida schools can wrestle each other along with a few schools in Georgia.  I remember when the SEC had wrestling with Georgia, Georgia Tech, Florida, Alabama, LSU, Tennesse, and Kentucky all having teams.  Joe Carr wrestled for his bother, Fletcher, at Kentucky.  He beat a friend of mine, Paul Bruns, for the SEC title.  Both went to NCAA D1 nationals where Joe took 3rd place. Great teams, Great facilities, and Great wrestling.

Clemson had wrestling, and I think Auburn, as well.  Wade Schalles coached at Clemson. Now all they care about is football :-(

Could you imagine the level of talent they could pull in if Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, LSU, etc. used just a very, very small slice of their football revenue to run wrestling programs? Not to mention the knock-on effect it would have at the local high school level in those states just from the extra exposure for the sport.

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