Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JohnnyThompsonnum1

States without VARSITY College Wrestling

Recommended Posts

19 hours ago, Fletcher said:

Could you imagine the level of talent they could pull in if Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, LSU, etc. used just a very, very small slice of their football revenue to run wrestling programs? Not to mention the knock-on effect it would have at the local high school level in those states just from the extra exposure for the sport.

Yes, if they allowed it to grow, the way you stated, their programs would be on par with the northeastern and midwest programs elsewhere.  In California, collegiate wrestling is struggling, but high school remains very strong. In the South, their heyday seemed to be coming until Charley Pell (Forida football coach), et al, threw their collective weight around to the demise of wrestling programs favoring more scholarship money, more weight rooms and office space, etc. for football.

Edited by DennyTheGrappler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2021 at 2:57 PM, Swayz said:

"Varsity Programs"  aka non Club,  although some "NCWA teams"  are funded by their school.   I will say this.  There are a  lot of schools out there claiming to have a varsity wrestling program or even a team...but if you can't cover 80% of the weight classes and have at least 15 wrestlers in the room.  Opt out of duals if you don't have enough guys.  That falls back on piss poor recruiting.  You can only blame administration so long,  but remember if you are still around and you blame administration for not fielding a full team...you are one of their bad decisions as well. 

I agree, on any level, programs are struggling when they can't get the numbers. Being that wrestling is an individual sport, wrestlers can enter tournaments with a few wrestlers but dual meets leave teams with many forfeits.  So going "club" seems practical when faced with axing the program due to lack of participants and overall interest.

I think NCWA was formed to allow schools an arena to grow the sport into a viable program.  Also, schools lost programs due to Title iX trimming even though there was still interest with a good number participating. So it seems to have found a niche for college teams to compete. The top schools can compete at a higher level and some might be school-supported to do so. Some do eventually jump to NCAA/NAIA but some are content where they are. Also, D1 schools might not want to spend the money to compete at a higher level. 

 

Edited by DennyTheGrappler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/8/2014 at 4:19 PM, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

 

If they are paid for by the school, and have full time coaching staffs AND they would put most DIII schools to shame, why don't they just become varsity status? Or at least TRY and become varsity status? I guess I don't get that. Explain that to me.

The original purpose of the NCWA was to provide the opportunities to compete by restoring and hopefully reinstating cut programs.  However, it seems to have evolved into its own.  Besides being a platform for programs to organize and build, many teams are happy to jusy stay there and avoid facing the axe especially with Title iX.  The more flexibility in rules and regulations are a welcomed change in many instances.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see a dramatc shift in the paradigm.

Edited by DennyTheGrappler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2021 at 7:34 AM, smsu150 said:

Charley "The Cheat" Pell - Didn't he want the wrestling room for some type of office or space for the football program?

Eddie Graham (pro wrestler and promoter) donated $50,000 for a wrestling room at UF.  One year later, the program was dropped and Pell converted the room to a weight room for the football team.  The Gators dropped women's volleyball the same year as wrestling, but brought it back a year later.  Pell was later fired after committing hundreds of NCAA violations, and the football team was put on probation.  What a great hire Pell was!

Considering how many sports programs have been dropped over the years, I get ticked at the greedy, spoiled football and basketbal players who are demanding to be paid for playing in college.  How many more programs would need to die to cover their expenses?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/7/2014 at 9:42 PM, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

I cannot tell you how thrilled I am that Alabama will field a varsity wrestling team this upcoming season. I think this is a huge step for the sport of wrestling and it feels good to erase a state from the list states that do not have varsity college wrestling opportunities. That's the good news.

 

The bad news is, we still have 7 states that currently have no VARSITY collegiate wrestling opportunities. These states include, Alaska, Mississippi, Hawaii, Delaware, Florida, Louisiana and Nevada.

 

Alaska and Hawaii are going to be damn near impossible, simply because of Geography. How colleges in Hawaii manage to have any varsity sports at all is incredible. Travel, pretty much writes off these two states.

 

I hate to be pessimistic but I just don't see Mississippi coming on board anytime soon. It is still the only state that has yet to sanction high school wrestling. I know Tyron Woodley has done some work generating interest in the state, as have others. Hopefully things change.

 

That leaves us with four States, Florida, Louisiana, Delaware and Nevada.

 

Florida - I think Florida is best approached from the NJCAA level. If we could get wrestling started at a good number of the many junior colleges in Florida, I think that could grow into the NAIA and DII schools of Florida adding wrestling as well. Think about it. Let's say that ASA Miami, Eastern Florida State College, Gulf Coast State, Indian River State, Lake Sumter, Palm Beach State, Pensacola state, Polk State, Seminole State, St Johns River State, St. Petersburg and Tallahassee Community College all add wrestling that is 13 NJCAA schools that can all compete against one another within doable travel distance. This could lead to the Division II schools of Barry, Eckerd, Flagler, Lynn, Rollins, Tampa and West Florida as well as the NAIA schools of Florida Memorial and Southeastern University all adding wrestling as well. A major concern of adding wrestling in Florida is the travel distance. With 7 DII schools all having wrestling programs, there is a large chunk of the schedule right there. The NAIA programs could wrestle against the nearby NAIA schools in Georgia. No reason Florida shouldn't have wrestling opportunities.

 

Louisiana - Much like Arkansas, Kentucky and Georgia have been, Louisiana needs to be hit hard from the NAIA level. Dillard, LSU-Shreveport, Loyola, Southeastern University of New Orleans and Xavier are all NAIA schools within relatively close distance to one another. Plus add in LSU-Alexandria as well. This could lead to NJCAA schools of Baton Rouge, Delgado Community College and Southeastern University to add as well. Maybe even a slight chance at getting DIII's Centaury of Louisiana and Louisiana College to add too.

 

Delaware - Based on the state itself, it seems a bit more challenging, but it's not all that far from New Jersey, Virginia or Pennsylvania. If the Tech colleges in Owens, Stanton and Terry were to add programs, that would mean 3 NJCAA opportunities. DIII wrestling is rich in the surrounding states, so if Wesley were to add wrestling, I think they could do their schedule with relative ease. Wilmington would be a good addition to DII.

 

Nevada - Nevada seems like the toughest challenge, but still one that should be approached. what makes Nevada hard to tackle is that it has no DIII schools, no DII Schools and no NAIA schools. This posses a problem. On top of that it only has two NJCAA schools in Western Nevada College and College of Southern Nevada. Not sure if the locations of these schools would be fit to compete against schools in the California Community College system or not. Sure would like to see wrestling in Nevada though.

 

 

Thoughts?

Alaska-Anchorage and Hawaii have Sports with full Schedules, They usually have more Home than Away, and the Away has to be by plane not Bus Or Van, It can be done as is proven by their other Sports, they could have Seasons where they only travel 2-3 Times maybe Midlands or Southern Scuffle, Conference and NCAA.  If they host the Conference meet that would be only 2 competitions Traveling,  or just have a unique experiment where they train like crazy, with very few competitions, it is rare, but some Athletes like it that way,  Train Extremely hard and Don't think about tapering except for NCAA.      Unlikely, but just throwing it out there a way places far away can have a team,  I like everyone having a chance to participate and try to overcome the obstacles placed in front of them,  The Athletes at these school would likely have less opportunity to compete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Alaska Anchorage has a Nationally ranked D1 Rifle team.  I was once at a Saturday HS Wrestling match, Talking to someone who had to leave the meet after his younger son, maybe nephew, wrestled. He wanted to watch His son shoot for Ak-Anch. I asked where and he explained that most of their competitions were remote, by TV computer, whatever.------ And as I look it up, it is actually Alaska-Fairbanks, 1 of 2 D2 rifle teams (3 D3 and 23 D1)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/26/2021 at 2:57 PM, Swayz said:

"Varsity Programs"  aka non Club,  although some "NCWA teams"  are funded by their school.   I will say this.  There are a  lot of schools out there claiming to have a varsity wrestling program or even a team...but if you can't cover 80% of the weight classes and have at least 15 wrestlers in the room.  Opt out of duals if you don't have enough guys.  That falls back on piss poor recruiting.  You can only blame administration so long,  but remember if you are still around and you blame administration for not fielding a full team...you are one of their bad decisions as well. 

There are "varsity" programs in the NCWA and they aren't just the transitioning schools either. The PSU branch campuses are varsity as is the Apprentice School. There are more athletic associations than just the NCAA, NAIA and NJCAA ...the USCAA doesn't have wrestling as a championship sport but is moving towards it. With no official postseason championship, the NCWA has provided an avenue.

 

Penn College of Technology also was approved as a provisional D3 member. They have had a team for the last four years or so.

 

There are valid college non transitional programs in the NCWA. - by Jason Bryant

 

Schreiner University in Texas lists as a varsity. Also, several JC's varsities are in NCWA.

Edited by dpl7499@gmail.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, dpl7499@gmail.com said:

 

Wow!!!  Looks like Alaska is a hot bed for Rifle even though no college wrestling.

"Against Stupidity, the Gods, Themselves, Contend in Vain", Schiller.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

Eddie Graham (pro wrestler and promoter) donated $50,000 for a wrestling room at UF.  One year later, the program was dropped and Pell converted the room to a weight room for the football team.  The Gators dropped women's volleyball the same year as wrestling, but brought it back a year later.  Pell was later fired after committing hundreds of NCAA violations, and the football team was put on probation.  What a great hire Pell was!

Considering how many sports programs have been dropped over the years, I get ticked at the greedy, spoiled football and basketbal players who are demanding to be paid for playing in college.  How many more programs would need to die to cover their expenses?

Eddie Graham was also instrumental in the wrestling program at the University of Tampa 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, dougb said:

Alaska-Anchorage and Hawaii have Sports with full Schedules, They usually have more Home than Away, and the Away has to be by plane not Bus Or Van, It can be done as is proven by their other Sports, they could have Seasons where they only travel 2-3 Times maybe Midlands or Southern Scuffle, Conference and NCAA.  If they host the Conference meet that would be only 2 competitions Traveling,  or just have a unique experiment where they train like crazy, with very few competitions, it is rare, but some Athletes like it that way,  Train Extremely hard and Don't think about tapering except for NCAA.      Unlikely, but just throwing it out there a way places far away can have a team,  I like everyone having a chance to participate and try to overcome the obstacles placed in front of them,  The Athletes at these school would likely have less opportunity to compete.

Alaska-Pacific DID have a varsity wrestling program at one time and they were quite good.  https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/07/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-alaska.html  

As to Hawaii and your analysis, that IS what they did for a time period.   They had wrestling In the 30's & 40's and 50's & dropped it sometime around the Korean War.   

Then the Rainbow Warriors brought wrestling back for a short spell in the 70's.  A member of the PAC-12 conference (what would now be the PAC-12 anyway) they routinely finished in last place, with dual records, indicating about three to at most five duals per year. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, dpl7499@gmail.com said:

There are "varsity" programs in the NCWA and they aren't just the transitioning schools either. The PSU branch campuses are varsity as is the Apprentice School. There are more athletic associations than just the NCAA, NAIA and NJCAA ...the USCAA doesn't have wrestling as a championship sport but is moving towards it. With no official postseason championship, the NCWA has provided an avenue.

 

Penn College of Technology also was approved as a provisional D3 member. They have had a team for the last four years or so.

 

There are valid college non transitional programs in the NCWA. - by Jason Bryant

 

Schreiner University in Texas lists as a varsity. Also, several JC's varsities are in NCWA.

Again this post was 7 years ago & I've read up/learned a lot since then.  It's not black & white. It's very gray and very complicated. 

Texas in itself is a very strange state regarding collegiate wrestling. 

An excellent example of what you are talking about in terms of 'varsity' wrestling is LeTourneau https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/08/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best_14.html

They competed in the NCCAA (National Christian Collegiate Athletic Association) which was never official. Yet the school treated the program as varsity status. They were listed in the yearly annuals, the media guides and in the yearbooks.  The school recognized the team & advertised for duals.  They even hosted a tournament. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

Eddie Graham was also instrumental in the wrestling program at the University of Tampa 

Also just food for thought.  Dory Funk Sr was pretty much single-handedly responsible for getting wrestling into private high schools in Texas in the 1960's.  

It's fun though to consistently listen to people in amateur wrestling bash & put down professional wrestling.  I mean after all Funk in Texas & Graham in Florida, yet, let's often ignore that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/8/2014 at 7:30 AM, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

In my opinion Pinnum there should be varsity opportunities for high school wrestlers in no less than 47 of the 50 states. I can begrudgingly accept that Mississippi most likely won't have a program anytime soon, and I can understand why Alaska and Hawaii most likely never will either. I can stretch it, and accept the circumstances in Nevada as well given that they have so little NJCAA representation and no DII, DIII or NAIA schools.

 

However, every other state ought to have some representation. As large as Texas is, I hope that Wayland Baptist is the start of something and that more NAIA schools in the largest state in the continental United States has more than just one program. I remember when Kentucky, Georgia and Arkansas all got their first programs, and it wasn't long after until Kentucky was up to 3, and Georgia up to 5 and Arkansas up to 6. I hope to see the same thing in Alabama, and Texas.

Johnny,

Texas has improved since your post in 2014 with 3 schools with Varsity wrestling:

Wayland Baptist is NAIA

Texas Wesleyan is NAIA (2nd year program)

Schreiner University is NCAA DIII (3rd year program)

Edited by neutralpositionref

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JohnnyThompsonnum1 said:

Also just food for thought.  Dory Funk Sr was pretty much single-handedly responsible for getting wrestling into private high schools in Texas in the 1960's.  

It's fun though to consistently listen to people in amateur wrestling bash & put down professional wrestling.  I mean after all Funk in Texas & Graham in Florida, yet, let's often ignore that. 

I wasn't aware that Eddie Graham also supported the University of Tampa team, but it makes sense since he lived in Tampa.  I heard (unverified) stories about Jack Brisco rolling around with Fletcher Carr at UT.  Supposedly, Fletcher was getting frustrated and said something, where Brisco then told him, "I'm only going to pin you one more time!".  I don't know if it is true or just urban legend.

Anyway, Eddie supporting amateur wrestling (the Brandon wrestling team was on Championship Wrestling from Florida after winning their first state title in 1977) was not just good for the community, it was also good for business.  Several Tampa Bay area high school wrestlers from that era went on to become pro wrestlers.  Off the top of my head, there was Buzz Sawyer (Bruce Woyan), Brian Blair (who was terrible in high school), Pat Tanaka and The Malenko (Simon) brothers.  Hiro Matsuda had a wrestling school that was for aspiring pros three days a week and amateur wrestlers three days a week, with the future pros occasionally working out with the young kids.  (Bob Orton Jr. taught me a counter to the inside leg ride), and I heard Bob Roop also came by a few times.  Masao Hattori led the amateur practices and Hiro taught the aspiring pros (and also the kids).

Good times!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bob1974 said:

I wasn't aware that Eddie Graham also supported the University of Tampa team, but it makes sense since he lived in Tampa.  I heard (unverified) stories about Jack Brisco rolling around with Fletcher Carr at UT.  Supposedly, Fletcher was getting frustrated and said something, where Brisco then told him, "I'm only going to pin you one more time!".  I don't know if it is true or just urban legend.

Anyway, Eddie supporting amateur wrestling (the Brandon wrestling team was on Championship Wrestling from Florida after winning their first state title in 1977) was not just good for the community, it was also good for business.  Several Tampa Bay area high school wrestlers from that era went on to become pro wrestlers.  Off the top of my head, there was Buzz Sawyer (Bruce Woyan), Brian Blair (who was terrible in high school), Pat Tanaka and The Malenko (Simon) brothers.  Hiro Matsuda had a wrestling school that was for aspiring pros three days a week and amateur wrestlers three days a week, with the future pros occasionally working out with the young kids.  (Bob Orton Jr. taught me a counter to the inside leg ride), and I heard Bob Roop also came by a few times.  Masao Hattori led the amateur practices and Hiro taught the aspiring pros (and also the kids).

Good times!

I have Fletcher on my facebook. I wonder if he'd talk to me about that story (if true) or not.  I certainly don't wanna tick him off, but I'm curious to know! 

You know some of what you say brings a smile to my face.  Blair acts like he's the best athlete to ever come out of the high school he went to.  I've met Pat before. Talk about a fun, friendly guy.  I never knew he did amateur wrestling.  That surprises me a bit.   

I knew that Randy Orton wrestled, but I was unaware that Bob Orton Jr had. 

You know who else wrestled in high school?  Ricky Steamboat and Eddie's son Mike.   Sadly Mike  (as is Eddie) is gone now, but the way Mike talked, you would have thought he could've tech'd Dan Gable.  Very braggadocios individual, but he did it in a harmless way. He once beat Steamboat (real name Richard Blood) in a match.  He'd talk for hours about it.  He claims that it was in the Qualifier finals for the state tournament.  Yet I've searched and searched in Florida state high school records and never found the name Blood once. Nor did I ever find the name Gossett (Mike's real last name). 

Steamboat also has said in interviews that he wrestled in junior college, but I never found any info on that either. 

I also know that Graham wanted Terry Bollea (Hulk Hogan) to do both football and amateur wrestling, but he refused. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://s3.amazonaws.com/fhsaa.org/documents/2020/10/21/rec_wr_10_21_20.pdf

The above is a link to the FHSAA wrestling record book.  For some reason, there are a lot of folks who, legend has it, were state champions who never showed up in the records. I don't know if it is pure fabrication, embellishment or something else.  It's possible they were AAU state champions or they won a small tournament in middle school, but they aren't in the FHSAA book.  I've heard of Ricky the dragon, Pee Wee Herman (Paul Reubens) and Warren Sapp supposedly winning a state title, but I have seen no actual record of it.  One exception is Ray Lewis, who did win the Class 4A 189 pound title in 1993.

I don't know Bob Orton Jr.'s amateur background.  Hiro Matsuda was running his wrestling school out of a classroom at USF for a few weeks in the summer of '72 until he got his own building.  Orton was showing me (16 years old) a counter to the inside leg ride when he jumped up, yelled, "Those guys stole my wallet!" and took off like a bat out of hell before I could even get my glasses on.  He came back a few minutes later, clutching his wallet and bleeding from bite marks on his chest.  I asked him what happened.  He said, "I suplexed the first guy on the sidewalk.  That took care of him.  The other guy kept biting me, so I poked him in the eyes.  I got my wallet back.".

Blair wrestled for Tampa Bay Tech, which is not exactly a powerhouse program.  I was watching Championship Wrestling from Florida with a friend of mine, when he jumped up, pointed at the screen and said, "That's Brian Blair!  He sucks!  I pinned him in the first period!".  Blair was so bad at that point in his career that the bad guy (I think it was Lars Anderson) wrestled him amateur style for most of the match.  It just goes to show that hard work and perseverence paid off, since Blair had a pretty solid pro career.

Pat Tanaka finished second in Class 3A for Tampa Catholic in 1980.

I think Bruce Woyan finished third in the state (my memory is fuzzy on that one) and I saw in a record book that he was the first Floridian to AA at Junior Nationals (before it became "Fargo").  

The Simon brothers wrestled for Jesuit in Tampa.  If memory serves, they were average wrestlers, but I never heard them bragging about their amateur background.

As an aside, Mr. Wonderful, Paul Orndorff (also nicknamed the Brandon Bull) played football at Brandon High and UT before turning to pro wrestling. He graduated high school just before Brandon started having a wrestling team. 

 

Edited by Bob1974

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bob1974 said:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/fhsaa.org/documents/2020/10/21/rec_wr_10_21_20.pdf

The above is a link to the FHSAA wrestling record book.  For some reason, there are a lot of folks who, legend has it, were state champions who never showed up in the records. I don't know if it is pure fabrication, embellishment or something else.  It's possible they were AAU state champions or they won a small tournament in middle school, but they aren't in the FHSAA book.  I've heard of Ricky the dragon, Pee Wee Herman (Paul Reubens) and Warren Sapp supposedly winning a state title, but I have seen no actual record of it.  One exception is Ray Lewis, who did win the Class 4A 189 pound title in 1993.

I don't know Bob Orton Jr.'s amateur background.  Hiro Matsuda was running his wrestling school out of a classroom at USF for a few weeks in the summer of '72 until he got his own building.  Orton was showing me (16 years old) a counter to the inside leg ride when he jumped up, yelled, "Those guys stole my wallet!" and took off like a bat out of hell before I could even get my glasses on.  He came back a few minutes later, clutching his wallet and bleeding from bite marks on his chest.  I asked him what happened.  He said, "I suplexed the first guy on the sidewalk.  That took care of him.  The other guy kept biting me, so I poked him in the eyes.  I got my wallet back.".

Blair wrestled for Tampa Bay Tech, which is not exactly a powerhouse program.  I was watching Championship Wrestling from Florida with a friend of mine, when he jumped up, pointed at the screen and said, "That's Brian Blair!  He sucks!  I pinned him in the first period!".  Blair was so bad at that point in his career that the bad guy (I think it was Lars Anderson) wrestled him amateur style for most of the match.  It just goes to show that hard work and perseverence paid off, since Blair had a pretty solid pro career.

Pat Tanaka finished second in Class 3A for Tampa Catholic in 1980.

I think Bruce Woyan finished third in the state (my memory is fuzzy on that one) and I saw in a record book that he was the first Floridian to AA at Junior Nationals (before it became "Fargo").  

The Simon brothers wrestled for Jesuit in Tampa.  If memory serves, they were average wrestlers, but I never heard them bragging about their amateur background.

As an aside, Mr. Wonderful, Paul Orndorff (also nicknamed the Brandon Bull) played football at Brandon High and UT before turning to pro wrestling. He graduated high school just before Brandon started having a wrestling team. 

 

Do you know anything of Carrot Top's Wrestling career. He's talked a lot in interviews of being on the wrestling team in high school. Curious who he competed for. 

Really cool to learn that about Pat. He's such a cool guy.  

 

I also think the Paul Rubenfeld (AKA Rubens aka Pee Wee Herman) thing is complete fabrication. I've listened to a lot of interviews where he's talked about his youth & high school. Never once mentioned Wrestling. 

 

I mean that doesn't mean for sure that he didn't. Tony Danza wrestled in high school & one year of college & he NEVER mentions Wrestling. Talks boxing & baseball all the time, but never Wrestling. 

 

You know who DID Wrestle that will probably surprise you? 

 

Gailard Sartain 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember when schools like Arizona State and Alabama-Huntsville decided to elevate their club hockey programs to varsity status.  Everyone thought they were crazy.  NOw they are some of the top programs in the nation.  I think it would be a quick jump if Florida State added wrestling.  These schools attract top athletes regardless of the sport. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/29/2021 at 1:17 PM, neutralpositionref said:

Johnny,

Texas has improved since your post in 2014 with 3 schools with Varsity wrestling:

Wayland Baptist is NAIA

Texas Wesleyan is NAIA (2nd year program)

Schreiner University is NCAA DIII (3rd year program)

Schreiner is not DIII in men's wrestling.  NCWA.   They are hoping to go DIII though.   Women's is an NCAA program though and also competes folkstyle in NCWA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Legitimacy” is the word people are looking for. Titles and institutions matter. 
 

I’m well aware of what some clubs have done and do. It is very noteworthy and should be acknowledged. It also keeps wrestling numbers and participation up. Something that is vastly underrated. People squawk and whine about multiple divisions at state tournaments.. even though it have led to more programs having wrestling in states like Tennessee. Big picture things like participation numbers and effective fundraising matter more than the “purity” of a state title. 
 

That being said...

In the eyes of  the general public and most people involved in higher level wrestling. No matter what resources a club may use and have. It does not have legitimacy as a “varsity” program. Because it is not backed up the established institutions that govern varsity collegiate sports in the US. 
 

This leaves aside the fact that by calling it a “club”. It comes across to joe blow as just an intramural hobby club with varying degrees of funding, not a “real team”. This is not a diss, it is simply how the English language works. An NWCA athlete telling someone they are a “college wrestler” will be treated the same as if a frat guy said he was a “college basketball player” because he played intramural.
 

NWCA programs lacking institutional legitimacy also makes it that they are not counted when one checks to see how many “varsity” collegiate programs exist.

Hell, I respect an NWCA guy who wrestled all 4 years FAR more than the guys who.. wrestled one year in DI, quit because “it wasn’t fun anymore”. Then have the audacity to claim they are a “Division I athlete” when promoting their little youth club. It doesn’t change the fact that an NWCA program does not the same institutional legitimacy as a NAIA, D I-III, or JUCO program.

 

Edited by jp157
Grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2014 at 5:01 PM, CollegeWrestling4444 said:

 

If you're varsity can compete at the NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA Championships, the you are varsity. If your national championships is the club championships, or the ncwa, you aren't varsity. ncwa is not varsity. The only decent thing about it is that some of the club programs have been elevated to real varsity status, like Southern Virginia was yesterday.

This statement seems contradictory where you say some programs within the NCWA "have been elevated to varsity status." You seem to admit that they are varsity even though they're in the NCWA? Or, do you mean they left the NCWA? I don't feel you need to be NCAA, NAIA, or NJCAA to be a varsity.  There are other governing bodies in intercollegiate athletics.  How about non-NCAA sports like sailing for example?  The Intercollegiate Sailing Association (ICSA) being a prime example. There are a host of other organizations as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercollegiate_sports_team_champions

Some wrestling programs might be in a sort of hybrid model or in transition just like when programs undergo NCAA provisional status and cannot compete for a champioship, either. The issue is very complicated and not cut and dry.  

Varsity college teams are simply teams that formally represent their respective colleges and universities  "Clubs" run along the notion of an activity comprised of students at a college or university forming as a club due to a common interest that binds them together to pursue this shared interest. They are not funded like their "varsity" counterparts. And, not part of the athletic department with full-time coaches but managed exclusively by the students. Several teams in the NCWA fit this mode, but not all. 

Many smaller schools wanting to have a varsity program at their school may choose to compete as an NCWA team and possibly grow into an NCAA/NAIA or JUCO team.  Many large D1 programs, such as, UCF (University of Central Florida) would prefer "club" status to avoid the funding a D1 would entail.  UCF is a thriving club team and performs well against many varsity programs.  It has nothing to do with the competition, but rather the school's overall support.

Just like the NCAA has divisions, many high schools also have divisions, as alluded to in another comment above, allowing greater participation in the sport;  It has a lot to do with the growing populations and creating more opportunities to compete.  The NCWA was initially created due to Title IX compliance issues and losing many wrestling programs throughout the country.  But now, providing opportunities for women in wrestling, men's programs have been added or reinstated.  So the future looks better for our sport. 

Edited by dpl7499@gmail.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, jp157 said:

“Legitimacy” is the word people are looking for. Titles and institutions matter. 
 

I’m well aware of what some clubs have done and do. It is very noteworthy and should be acknowledged. It also keeps wrestling numbers and participation up. Something that is vastly underrated. People squawk and whine about multiple divisions at state tournaments.. even though it have led to more programs having wrestling in states like Tennessee. Big picture things like participation numbers and effective fundraising matter more than the “purity” of a state title. 
 

That being said...

In the eyes of  the general public and most people involved in higher level wrestling. No matter what resources a club may use and have. It does not have legitimacy as a “varsity” program. Because it is not backed up the established institutions that govern varsity collegiate sports in the US. 
 

This leaves aside the fact that by calling it a “club”. It comes across to joe blow as just an intramural hobby club with varying degrees of funding, not a “real team”. This is not a diss, it is simply how the English language works. An NWCA athlete telling someone they are a “college wrestler” will be treated the same as if a frat guy said he was a “college basketball player” because he played intramural.
 

NWCA programs lacking institutional legitimacy also makes it that they are not counted when one checks to see how many “varsity” collegiate programs exist.

Hell, I respect an NWCA guy who wrestled all 4 years FAR more than the guys who.. wrestled one year in DI, quit because “it wasn’t fun anymore”. Then have the audacity to claim they are a “Division I athlete” when promoting their little youth club. It doesn’t change the fact that an NWCA program does not the same institutional legitimacy as a NAIA, D I-III, or JUCO program.

 

NCWA?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...