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ElChangodeAmor

Valencia Progress vs Pico Progress

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Pico fits the Iowa mold to a T in my opinion and would benefit greatly from Brands and Co. along with his personal coach. Metcalf is the only problem with that training situation as it would be like the Bunch/Humph/Steiber problem the Ohio RTC had

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You're saying that these guys did one thing better than everyone else, and that world titles are won at the mid-level.  But you also say two things for each guy, and I think only one of those is at the mid-level (Smith's Hi-C).

 

Anyway, I think both of these ideas are interesting.  Did every world champ use a single dominant move/tie to open up the rest of their game?  Are championships won at the mid-level (that is, single and double legs)?

 

For example, Asgarov and Goigereev both dominated with shrugs the last few years -- and I think you could argue that those attacks allowed everything else they did to work.  But I don't think the shrug is a mid-level attack.  

 

An underhook, a seat belt, 2-on-1, those are mid-level setups - in general.  Now, what i mean when I say world titles are won at the mid-level, every year, there is an analysis released (this started with Zeke) that counted the techniques used for EVERY point scored at the World Championships.  

 

Single leg was number 1 (by a large margin), and HI-C and Front Headlock/Go-Behind were 2-3, though I don't remember the order.  Zeke differentiated from Low-level attacks, throws and the shrug "series" (slide-bys, throw-byes, etc.)

 

And yes, every world champ has something that is dominant, its what makes them unique and confident in their ability to score points.  Asgarov is an anomaly.  His shrug is what makes him special.  And you can't add Goigereev (and his arm drag) as dominating the last "few years;" he has one world championship to his name and no other yellow medals on the senior level.

 

If you want a great example of how mid-level works and dominates more often than not - watch the Iranians.  They work with few angles, take a lot of straight-on shots, but they are in great position when they take those shots.  One thing they've been a great job is wrestling and dominating the underhook position.  The overhook position is a Russian Staple, and its clear someone in that program made it a priority that all their athletes master that position.

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Pico has been hitting that takedown for some time now. I ignored it because I don't feel a need to point out the obvious. Talk about not watching wrestling.

 

We shall see he his progress goes with sticking with the same old same old. U.S. athletes has a tendency of dominating their country with one thing and then faultering against the world. I just don't want to see Pico do the same. I want him to be above the hype.

 

No. No he hasn't.  The snatch he is hitting now is Aldatov's toe-tap misdirection.  Subtle difference in his feet and hand movement.  

 

 

I started this topic to show to people that even if you are not criticizing someone, to even ask a question is sac religious in the wrestling community. If you go back and read my post, no where did i say Pico was slipping, lost a step, or anything negative, nor did i say one was better then the other.

On the other side i never said anything negative about Valentine and his coaching.

I merely stated an observation about the improvements made by Anthony vs the improvements made by Pico 

 

Asking a question is fine, but don't think that people can't read between the lines, or just read your post in general.  Your quote was:

 

 "Also, Aaron's takedown arsenal has not shown to have progressed as much as i thought it might have up till this point. Kind of feel he would really benefit from time with Nittany Lion or OSU room."

 

Now, the definition of criticize: indicate the faults of (someone or something) in a disapproving way.

 

Dude, that's exactly what you did.  No need to read between the lines.  He hasn't progressed as much as you would have thought and feel like he should spend less time with his coach, and be in a completely different program.  

 

The one thing I love about  this board, are the varied opinions, critiques and arguments we all post.  Don't be afraid to post your thoughts, or "ask a question."  Just realize that people are going to call you out if they believe you are wrong.  Be prepared to defend your position, don't act like some petulant child whose been punished, but believes EVERYONE ELSE is wrong.

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I started this topic to show to people that even if you are not criticizing someone, to even ask a question is sac religious in the wrestling community. If you go back and read my post, no where did i say Pico was slipping, lost a step, or anything negative, nor did i say one was better then the other.

On the other side i never said anything negative about Valentine and his coaching.

I merely stated an observation about the improvements made by Anthony vs the improvements made by Pico 

the OP read to me like a passive aggressive swipe of Pico's training decisions. it also read like promotional copy for the NLWC. 

 

dont want to make a big deal out of it. i dont think discussing Pico's progress should be a taboo topic but i found the framing of the topic in this thread puzzling. a 17 year old just took 2nd at the junior worlds. that means he's doing quite a few thnigs right and better than almost any junior wrestler in US history. 

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Now, what i mean when I say world titles are won at the mid-level, every year, there is an analysis released (this started with Zeke) that counted the techniques used for EVERY point scored at the World Championships.  

 

Single leg was number 1 (by a large margin), and HI-C and Front Headlock/Go-Behind were 2-3, though I don't remember the order.  Zeke differentiated from Low-level attacks, throws and the shrug "series" (slide-bys, throw-byes, etc.)

I saw one of these a few years ago, I think on the Open Mat.  Are these archived somewhere?

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Pico has been wrestling/competing against boys.He is growing.   I am sure Mr. Kalika is a fine coach, but in order to up his game, Pico needs time at the OTC, spending time with Bill Zadick, Brandon Slay, Bruce Burnett and others.  Contrary to what many of you may think, I wish him all the best.   

 

 

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!   The ignorance on this board some times is worth its weight in gold.   

 

 

Sir you have just outed yourself as knowing VERY little about the junior level, let alone development of the athletes competing on that level.  

 

Good day and please consider the following:

 

It is better to remain silent and thought a fool

 

than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.   

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Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!   The ignorance on this board some times is worth its weight in gold.   

 

 

Sir you have just outed yourself as knowing VERY little about the junior level, let alone development of the athletes competing on that level.  

 

Good day and please consider the following:

 

It is better to remain silent and thought a fool

 

than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.   

We shall see....

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This.  Is what's wrong on so many levels. 

 

A) Valentin Kalika is not just a "fine coach."  Feel free to read his bio some time.  He has a Masters from Kiev University in professional coaching and sports education.  What does that mean?  It means he has studied under the most impressive sports program on this planet.  The USSR/Russian of wrestling has produced more medals in Olympic History than in any other sport, ever.  He knows what he's doing.

 

B) Pico "needs time at the OTC."  I'm sorry, but Bill Zadick, Brandon Slay and Bruce Burnett do not have a choke hold on the development of US Freestyle athletes.  You might want to take a look around, but it is THAT PARTICULAR thinking that put us in the "dark ages" of World/Olympic medals.  It is the Regional Training Centers, the trust and relationship that coaches have with their athletes and staying with their coach that has led to our recent success.  

 

C) Your implication that Pico has in some way, regressed, is short-sighted at best.  He is beating Senior Level athletes (Silver at Grand Prix of Spain, beat Japanese World Team Member at Jr. Worlds) and just took a Silver Medal as a FIRST YEAR JUNIOR.  Is he Sadulaev?  Nope.  But it is disingenuous to say that Pico has not "upped his level" in the past year.  He's getting better, and other athletes are getting better at game planning for him.  

I am sure that Mr. Kalinka knows what he's doing, but I think for a young, developing wrestler, maybe time with other coaches would do him some good.   

 

I also feel that "living" this training experience 24/7 at OTC would be good, as well.   You don't think time with Zadick, Slay, and Burnett would be helpful for an 18 year-old?  

 

I implied that Pico has "regressed"?   That's just insane....I just think the world is catching up. 

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I implied that Pico has "regressed"?   That's just insane....I just think the world is catching up. 

Exactly my point.

But how dare anyone say Pico could develop more.

Or question a MASTER world champ in Greco and Freestyle who coaches Pico.

 

People jump to be super sensitive. I repeated several times i am a Pico fan and i want to see him reach the dreams people hack him down for chasing. 

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An underhook, a seat belt, 2-on-1, those are mid-level setups - in general.  Now, what i mean when I say world titles are won at the mid-level, every year, there is an analysis released (this started with Zeke) that counted the techniques used for EVERY point scored at the World Championships.  

 

Single leg was number 1 (by a large margin), and HI-C and Front Headlock/Go-Behind were 2-3, though I don't remember the order.  Zeke differentiated from Low-level attacks, throws and the shrug "series" (slide-bys, throw-byes, etc.)

 

And yes, every world champ has something that is dominant, its what makes them unique and confident in their ability to score points.  Asgarov is an anomaly.  His shrug is what makes him special.  And you can't add Goigereev (and his arm drag) as dominating the last "few years;" he has one world championship to his name and no other yellow medals on the senior level.

 

If you want a great example of how mid-level works and dominates more often than not - watch the Iranians.  They work with few angles, take a lot of straight-on shots, but they are in great position when they take those shots.  One thing they've been a great job is wrestling and dominating the underhook position.  The overhook position is a Russian Staple, and its clear someone in that program made it a priority that all their athletes master that position.

Actually the second most common takedown is the COUNTER to the single leg.

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Actually the second most common takedown is the COUNTER to the single leg.

I could only find these two links:

http://www.zekejones.com/2010-world-championship-analysis-of-semis-gold-and-bronze-medal-matches/

http://www.cliffkeenmedia.com/2012/12/olympic-games-statistics/

 

In 2010, it looks like "core attacks" (seatbelt/whizzer/bear hug) were just as common as counters.  In 2012, counters were the second most common.

 

In both years, single legs scored more often than counters -- but how many total attacks were there?  How many of those were committed, rather than fakes?  We know that single legs are the most common form of offense, but it's not even clear that there's a good risk/reward ratio unless you know something about the success rates (a defensive counter that results in no score is a defensive success).

 

Anyway, you know your single leg defense has to be elite at the world level.

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Finally watched it. Good match. Pico seemed a bit sluggish - maybe because the Iranian took him out of his rythym from the get go - and in essense was wrestling a version of himself. I like the Iranian, strong and shoots off of heavy hands just like Pico. Pico had problems with the Iranians length and leverage. 

 

All part of the learning process. He's just fine. He does have a tendency of giving up his legs and doesn't scramble very well. But he's still 17 so has a lot of time to get better at his weaknesses.

 

FWIW, this is like de ja vu all over again. Heard it all with Cejudo. He ended up doing all right. Even got a college degree and is doing pretty good financially.

 

To his choices in general, 99% of the people will take the safe way. That is the logical and "safe" choice. But then there are the other 1% who will take the risk (people who scale the Himalaya's, wing suit jumpers, people who made discoveries, and so forth). As a species, without the risk takers, we would still be hunting and gathering. 

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The Iranian, Yazdanicharati, looked great in his semi against the Russian, Rasul Arsanaliev.  Arsanaliev is the one who pinned Pico in Turkey a few months back. Good match.  Dartfish hasn't posted any freestyle yet.  If anyone comes across it on Youtube please pass along the link. 

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pico, Valencia brothers, olivas,

 

i have seen these kids / young men since they were approximately 7 years old..

there secret to success is to constantly "Train with the best athletes / Wrestlers" in California year round.

in addition to that is that they toured the "Jack Roller" circuit for the best compition since they were very young.

Then the Super 32, Walsh Iron Man tournaments came as they aged.

they had so many private workouts with so many college type coaches and with so many great partners.

Their parents spent a TON of $$$$ over the years for travel, private training and other expenses.

In there elementary years / jr high years they travled up and down the state of California looking for the great workout partners that the wrestling communities in Cali had to offer, including the gym / club that we belong to (Fresno County, Clovis, Oakhusrt, Central Cathloic, Gilroy, etc,.)

you know what they say  "Iron sharpens Iron", and that is there secret...

It's no Secret... these kids just had some amazing IRON to work with and GREAT parents with $$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

California Gold

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pico, Valencia brothers, olivas,

 

i have seen these kids / young men since they were approximately 7 years old..

there secret to success is to constantly "Train with the best athletes / Wrestlers" in California year round.

in addition to that is that they toured the "Jack Roller" circuit for the best compition since they were very young.

Then the Super 32, Walsh Iron Man tournaments came as they aged.

they had so many private workouts with so many college type coaches and with so many great partners.

Their parents spent a TON of $$$$ over the years for travel, private training and other expenses.

In there elementary years / jr high years they travled up and down the state of California looking for the great workout partners that the wrestling communities in Cali had to offer, including the gym / club that we belong to (Fresno County, Clovis, Oakhusrt, Central Cathloic, Gilroy, etc,.)

you know what they say  "Iron sharpens Iron", and that is there secret...

It's no Secret... these kids just had some amazing IRON to work with and GREAT parents with $$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

California Gold

 

 

Go back to the California Wrestler.

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